Is everyone in hell?

[Bonam]

So what do you believe? We are all alone here destined to be food for worms? Or do you believe in some plan beyond earth?

We are not "destined" to be anything. The meaning of one's life is generally best described by one's accomplishments, one's relationships, and one's progeny. As for a plan beyond Earth... yes I believe there are plans for several more space probes to be launched in the near future

[dre]

So what do you believe? We are all alone here destined to be food for worms? Or do you believe in some plan beyond earth?

I think its nearly certain that worms will eat my remains. I guess if I was a worm I would probably eat them too.

A plan beyond earth? Sure! If we make one! But I dont think anyones going to do it for us.

Edited September 5, 2013 by dre

[carepov]

As far as the whole "happiness" thing goes, I guess in some ways that could make sense. As a non-believer I have to face some pretty ugly truths. My life will last a fraction of a blink of an eye, in a universe thats billions of years old... and then nothing... and my tiny slice of time is already half over. It would be AMAZING to believe that this was just the beginning, and as long as I devoted myself to a religion I would live for all of eternity in in a beautiful, magical place.

What a great thing to believe!. It would be wonderful to think that!. The problem is I just dont!

Theres probably all kinds of stuff I could believe that would make me feel just great! But I just cant do it. Im not wired that way. Im inquisitive, and critical, and curious. I cant take the blue pill even if I know it would make me feel great. I want to know the truth even if it sucks, and if confronting unpleasant truths is going to make my life worse than someone that takes the blue pill, then I guess that just is what it is.

I feel exactly the same way - except that: nobody said that one individual secular life is less happy than a religious life.

On average, people that beleive are happier than non-beleivers, but there are still many non-beleivers that are happier than beleivers.

And that is what is replacing religion in the modern world... Intellectual curiousity and a lust for knowledge.

1. Intellectual curiosity and a lust for knowledge are as much a part of a religious life as happiness is a part of secular life.

2. What is actually replacing religion is football and shopping.

[Mighty AC]

Without religion today, there will be a gap in many people's lives - what would fill this gap?

What fills the gap when childhood belief in Santa, the tooth fairy, dragons, leprechauns, boogy men, etc. are left behind?

There are certainly people that quit religion cold turkey and have a gap to fill but that situation is uncommon.

In my opinion, the more typical course of events is a gradual decline in religious participation. The first step might be to attend services less frequently, then maybe just on big holidays. Currently, only 20%ish of the US population that identify as being Christian actually attend services. To these people there is no gap, they have just freed up some time on Sundays for football and golf.

A bigger decrease in religion seems to happen between generations. Children (as they age) attend less than their parents who attend less than their parents did. It is far more common for children of families that do not actively attend services to identify as having 'no religion'. Again, in this type of situation there is no gap to fill.

[Mighty AC]

Aside from the minority of fundamentalist preachers, religious leader do not ask beleivers to suspend critical thinking.

Really? It seems that is exactly what they do. Instead of providing evidence for critical thinkers to examine, they assert a story and emphasize the consequences of non-belief. They also tell you to take pride in your faith...which is just belief without evidence.

Logically we do not accept a belief without evidence. If I said the universe was created by an undetectable Gummy Bear, you would be skeptical. You would obviously want to see evidence before accepting a belief in a magical, invisible, gelatin based creator, right?

So tell me, what evidence led you to accept that a god created life, the universe and everything?

[carepov]

What fills the gap when childhood belief in Santa, the tooth fairy, dragons, leprechauns, boogy men, etc. are left behind?

There are certainly people that quit religion cold turkey and have a gap to fill but that situation is uncommon.

In my opinion, the more typical course of events is a gradual decline in religious participation. The first step might be to attend services less frequently, then maybe just on big holidays. Currently, only 20%ish of the US population that identify as being Christian actually attend services. To these people there is no gap, they have just freed up some time on Sundays for football and golf.

A bigger decrease in religion seems to happen between generations. Children (as they age) attend less than their parents who attend less than their parents did. It is far more common for children of families that do not actively attend services to identify as having 'no religion'. Again, in this type of situation there is no gap to fill.

You may be correct about typical patterns towards religion. Still, even if it is a minority, a significant number of people greatly benefit from religion and IMO they (and therefore all of society) would be worse off without it.

-Some people can get stuck on unanswerable questions like: What happened before the big bang? Why are we here? What happens when we die?

-Some people would get no peace, tranquility if they did not pray or attend service

-Some people would less connected to the past through traditions without their religion

-Some people may not see their grandparents or other family members as often without religion

-Some people feel that they do not belong in any other social group but feel welcome in their religion

-Some people would not get over a major loss or trauma without their religion

-Some people would give nothing to charity without religion

-Religion makes some people happier

-Some people would act less morally without religious guidance

These are the gaps that I am talking about - and yes, there will be no gaps for some people perhaps no significant gaps for most people.

[Mighty AC]

Do you feel that it is better to lie to people as long as it makes them feel better?

Why is it that religious people have these burning questions that require answers so they can sleep at night, but then don't care about the quality of answer? For example:

What came before the big bang?
- Our lord the invisible, unfalsifiable, gummy bear created it.

What created our lord gummy then?
- Nothing. It has always existed forever. Nothing had to create it. Really. Just have faith.

Ok, that clears everything up.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Mighty AC

[carepov]

Really? It seems that is exactly what they do. Instead of providing evidence for critical thinkers to examine, they assert a story and emphasize the consequences of non-belief.

In my limited experience and understanding (note: I have no experience and understanding of extremist religions), most do nothing like what you describe, in fact they do the opposite. Often, they tell a story and then ask you to reflect on the meanings and moral dilemmas faced by the characters in the story. This builds empathy and critical thinking.

Logically we do not accept a belief without evidence. If I said the universe was created by an undetectable Gummy Bear, you would be skeptical. You would obviously want to see evidence before accepting a belief in a magical, invisible, gelatin based creator, right?

1. I can surmise from your posts that you have plenty of beliefs without evidence.

2. Some people look at the beauty in nature and for them that is evidence of a creator. I do not share this belief but I respect it, and it can never be disproven. I have faith in my marriage. I believe that the love will last our whole lives and I have no evidence to support this beleif. (in fact I have a few data points that seem to refute this belief!). There are so many questions in life that an individual needs to anwser - there is not enough time to obtain evidence for all the answers. Sometimes a leap of faith is the most logical way to "answer" the question, if only to move on to other questions.

So tell me, what evidence led you to accept that a god created life, the universe and everything?

What evidence led you to beileive that I "accept that a god created life, the universe and everything"? Don't seach too long: I do not.

[carepov]

Do you feel that it is better to lie to people as long as it makes them feel better?

Mostly no, but sometimes yes, it depends. I value honesty but I also other values such as happiness, security and health - usually there is no conflict but I would sometimes rather tell a lie, wouldn't you?

If your partner asks, "do these jeans make me look fat?" - how do you answer?

If your young child asks, "is grandma gone forever?" - how do you answer?

How about if a teenaged neice just lost a close relative and she is from a religious family. She asks you, "do you think that I am stupid for praying to God and believing that my sister is in heaven?" - How do you answer?

Why is it that religious people have these burning questions that require answers so they can sleep at night, but then don't care about the quality of answer? For example:

What came before the big bang?

- Our lord the invisible, unfalsifiable, gummy bear created it.

What created our lord gummy then?

- Nothing. It has always existed forever. Nothing had to create it. Really. Just have faith.

Ok, that clears everything up.

How can you think that religious people do not care about the quality of the answer? Here is another example of you believing something without evidence.

[Mighty AC]

In my limited experience and understanding (note: I have no experience and understanding of extremist religions), most do nothing like what you describe, in fact they do the opposite. Often, they tell a story and then ask you to reflect on the meanings and moral dilemmas faced by the characters in the story. This builds empathy and critical thinking.

The underlying belief in their god is simply asserted. Preachers do not debate and question the existence of their god or the validity of their scripture in church. Hence, parishioners simply suspend their critical thinking skills on that point. They are told they will be rewarded for this "faith".

2. Some people look at the beauty in nature and for them that is evidence of a creator. I do not share this belief but I respect it, and it can never be disproven.

Do the ugly/brutal aspects of nature count as evidence against the existence of a creator then? You can't disprove my Gummy Bear overlord, but that doesn't mean it is real or should be believed.

I have faith in my marriage. I believe that the love will last our whole lives and I have no evidence to support this beleif. (in fact I have a few data points that seem to refute this belief!).

I share the same hope for my marriage, despite also having some disputing data points. However, this is a prediction of the way events will unfold, not a belief in the existence of something.

There are so many questions in life that an individual needs to anwser - there is not enough time to obtain evidence for all the answers. Sometimes a leap of faith is the most logical way to "answer" the question, if only to move on to other questions.

We all evaluate information based on our existing body of knowledge. We can't be expected to investigate minor claims and stories that appear to be in line with information we already know to be true. However, we can be expected to investigate major belief systems that play a huge role in our lives. We can also be expected to alter our beliefs when better evidence is obtained.

It is better to say "I don't know" to a question than to simply make up a false answer.

What evidence led you to beileive that I "accept that a god created life, the universe and everything"? Don't seach too long: I do not.

The tone of your posts suggest that you have a belief in the Christian god. See...your claim that you are not a believer now counts as better evidence than my impression based on your writings.

[Accountability Now]

We are not "destined" to be anything. The meaning of one's life is generally best described by one's accomplishments, one's relationships, and one's progeny. As for a plan beyond Earth... yes I believe there are plans for several more space probes to be launched in the near future

I think its nearly certain that worms will eat my remains. I guess if I was a worm I would probably eat them too.

A plan beyond earth? Sure! If we make one! But I dont think anyones going to do it for us.

Sorry...I worded that poorly. I don't mean our plan for leaving earth. I meant do you think there is something outside of earth in terms of an afterlife of any type (reincarnation, heaven, or something totally different that we can't even fathom right now)?

[Mighty AC]

If your young child asks, "is grandma gone forever?" - how do you answer?

My children have lost grandparents. Instead of telling them they will see grandma or grandpa again, we acknowledged the pain of missing someone we love and focused on the good memories. My kids love to reminisce and tell stories about their grandparents, especially the funny ones.

How can you think that religious people do not care about the quality of the answer? Here is another example of you believing something without evidence.

You suggested that people need answers to big questions like "What preceded the big bang?". Sometimes, "we don't know yet", is the best and most honest response. People who contend that a god must have initiated the creation of the universe because "something cannot come from nothing", but then accept that this god is timeless and does not require a creator, are simply not concerned with the quality of the answer. Inserting a magical being does not answer questions, it creates more. Yet the religious are content with this ridiculous assertion.

[dre]

Sorry...I worded that poorly. I don't mean our plan for leaving earth. I meant do you think there is something outside of earth in terms of an afterlife of any type (reincarnation, heaven, or something totally different that we can't even fathom right now)?

I dont think theres an afterlife in terms of our consciousness, but I think we are part of a cycle where life emerges from death.

As near as I can tell though, your brain is a little bit like a bank of ram. Its volatile, meaning that once theres no power going to it, the information is all lost. I totally understand the need for people to think that your consciousness gets carried onto to another phase of life by some kind of vessel (soul or what have you), but I dont see any compelling evidence of that.

I DO think its possible that we might be able to figure out a way to do this one day though.

[Bonam]

I DO think its possible that we might be able to figure out a way to do this one day though.

Given the rate of technological progress, this is very likely to happen within our lifetimes.

[Accountability Now]

I totally understand the need for people to think that your consciousness gets carried onto to another phase of life by some kind of vessel (soul or what have you), but I dont see any compelling evidence of that.

What do you think about mediums? I know that 99% of them are crap but I have to admit that I have family and friends that have gone to see them (not me as I'm too scared) and these people are dead on about things that have happened or will happen. I know what you are going to say....they speak so generally and its up to interpretation. The ones that I'm talking about are very specific and don't blow smoke up your butt. If its good news they tell you and if its bad news they do the same. There honestly is very little to no interpretation with their comments. In these meetings the medium is always conversing with someone from your past who has died. Apparently these people follow you somewhat like angels. Again...some of the crap they know is FREAKY. It leads me to believe there is something out there but as you say...its not exactly compelling evidence.

[dre]

What do you think about mediums? I know that 99% of them are crap but I have to admit that I have family and friends that have gone to see them (not me as I'm too scared) and these people are dead on about things that have happened or will happen. I know what you are going to say....they speak so generally and its up to interpretation. The ones that I'm talking about are very specific and don't blow smoke up your butt. If its good news they tell you and if its bad news they do the same. There honestly is very little to no interpretation with their comments. In these meetings the medium is always conversing with someone from your past who has died. Apparently these people follow you somewhat like angels. Again...some of the crap they know is FREAKY. It leads me to believe there is something out there but as you say...its not exactly compelling evidence.

I dont know a whole lot about that subject, but even a busted clock is right twice a day. Some of these mediums make thousands of claims, and are able to put together a portfolio of seemingly amazing acts. But it often comes out that theres a whole lot of stuff they got wrong that isnt featured so prominently.

[Accountability Now]

I dont know a whole lot about that subject, but even a busted clock is right twice a day. Some of these mediums make thousands of claims, and are able to put together a portfolio of seemingly amazing acts. But it often comes out that theres a whole lot of stuff they got wrong that isnt featured so prominently.

I'm certainly not talking about the TV ones! There are a couple locally who my family and friends have gone to and it's sick how much they are able to know. I can only deduce it to them having some innate ability to read people or that they are actually communicating with people from another world.

[guyser]

What do you think about mediums? I know that 99% of them are crap

The other one percent are liars.

There is no credibility to any of them, pyschics and so on are all farcical and not a one has ever helped anyone nor anything.

Not one credible Police force will tell you that psychics helped solve a damn thing, not one.

Had a thread on this a while back, lots of claims, but no one could post a link to help themselves.

[Bonam]

I'm certainly not talking about the TV ones! There are a couple locally who my family and friends have gone to and it's sick how much they are able to know. I can only deduce it to them having some innate ability to read people or that they are actually communicating with people from another world.

Yeah, I'm sure it couldn't be that since they are local and talk to your "friends and family", that they might know a bit about you.

[carepov]

My children have lost grandparents. Instead of telling them they will see grandma or grandpa again, we acknowledged the pain of missing someone we love and focused on the good memories. My kids love to reminisce and tell stories about their grandparents, especially the funny ones.

Fair enough. I notice that you chose not to respond to the two other hypotheticals that I presented.

You suggested that people need answers to big questions like "What preceded the big bang?". Sometimes, "we don't know yet", is the best and most honest response. People who contend that a god must have initiated the creation of the universe because "something cannot come from nothing", but then accept that this god is timeless and does not require a creator, are simply not concerned with the quality of the answer. Inserting a magical being does not answer questions, it creates more. Yet the religious are content with this ridiculous assertion.

Most people, whether religious or not, are content with ``we don`t know yet``. IMO, most religious people beleive that there is a God but that humanity cannot fathom this God. Not much different really from the non-religious ``we don`t know yet``.

Judging by theological debates, ongoing for millenia, I would conclude that relious people are certainly concerned with the quality of the answers.

[The_Squid]

Fair enough. I notice that you chose not to respond to the two other hypotheticals that I presented.

Your hypothetical questions are silly. They are more about using tact and being sensitive when talking to a loved one than anything to do with religion or belief in the supernatural! If you are trying to compare that to an open forum such as this that discusses/debates ideas, including religion, the two are nothing alike! There is no need to use the same amount of tact or caring when I talk to Carepov online about religion in this context as I would with a niece who just lost a loved one.

Context is everything.

Most people, whether religious or not, are content with ``we don`t know yet``. IMO, most religious people beleive that there is a God but that humanity cannot fathom this God. Not much different really from the non-religious ``we don`t know yet``.

Judging by theological debates, ongoing for millenia, I would conclude that relious people are certainly concerned with the quality of the answers.

I disagree... A lot of people who are religious, especially the more vocal proponents, CAN fathom God and know EXACTLY what He wants from us. And they do know exactly what happens when people die... there are no mysteries because God has answered all these questions for them in their holy book. (subject to the correct interpretation... THEIR interpretation, of course)

You can't be concerned with the answer if you can never actually show that the answer you like is the correct one.

[carepov]

Your hypothetical questions are silly. They are more about using tact and being sensitive when talking to a loved one than anything to do with religion or belief in the supernatural! If you are trying to compare that to an open forum such as this that discusses/debates ideas, including religion, the two are nothing alike! There is no need to use the same amount of tact or caring when I talk to Carepov online about religion in this context as I would with a niece who just lost a loved one.

Context is everything.

What are you talking about. Here`s the context:

Do you feel that it is better to lie to people as long as it makes them feel better?

I disagree... A lot of people who are religious, especially the more vocal proponents, CAN fathom God and know EXACTLY what He wants from us. And they do know exactly what happens when people die... there are no mysteries because God has answered all these questions for them in their holy book. (subject to the correct interpretation... THEIR interpretation, of course)

You can't be concerned with the answer if you can never actually show that the answer you like is the correct one.

I suggest that you read ``a history of God`` by Karen Armstrong.

[carepov]

The underlying belief in their god is simply asserted. Preachers do not debate and question the existence of their god or the validity of their scripture in church. Hence, parishioners simply suspend their critical thinking skills on that point. They are told they will be rewarded for this "faith".

Yes, most beleiver`s take a leap of faith and beleive in God. But remember, your original assertion about suspending critical thinking was not specifically about the existance of God:

There will always be evil in the world but at least we will be free of divinely commanded evil. The associated freeing of sheep would be an added bonus. Believers are taught to suspend critical thinking and accept what religious leaders tell them on 'faith'. Granting people the power to make their own moral decisions would be a great leap forward.

I share the same hope for my marriage, despite also having some disputing data points. However, this is a prediction of the way events will unfold, not a belief in the existence of something.

It is not exactly the same, but for me marriage is still a leap of faith.

We all evaluate information based on our existing body of knowledge. We can't be expected to investigate minor claims and stories that appear to be in line with information we already know to be true. However, we can be expected to investigate major belief systems that play a huge role in our lives. We can also be expected to alter our beliefs when better evidence is obtained.

Yes, I agree. IMO religious people do this as much as non-religious people. (I of course will change this opinion if presented with contrary evidence).

[The_Squid]

I know the context.... Lying about your wife's fat ass is one thing.. Lying about an entire set of beliefs that people base their lives upon is something else entirely. The comparison of lies doesn't wash.

About your book recommendation, I know that not every person believes in a literal god... I didn't say everyone is like that. But enough are to hold back progress in society.

[carepov]

About your book recommendation, I know that not every person believes in a literal god... I didn't say everyone is like that. But enough are to hold back progress in society.

1. Some religious fundamentalist beleifs are holding back progress in society.

2. Some humanist religious or interfaith communities are a major driving force for progress in society.

Mocking, ridiculing, and stereotyping all believers hiders the work of 2. while adding to the influence of 1.