TTC Police Shooting

[Boges]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxnWwMUYf0

This video isn't conclusive but it appears that a group of police executed a teenager on an empty TTC streetcar.

Even if he had a knife, I can't see that this treatment was justified.

Should be an interesting story going forward. Apparently social media has exploded in outrage over this shooting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/28/toronto-ttc-streetcar-fatal-police-shooting-siu.html?cmp=rss

Edited July 29, 2013 by Boges

[GostHacked]

The cops could have done the right thing and wait it out. No one on the train and he had a knife. Eventually he will get tired .... but I guess this was the easier solution.

I had not seen the video before until just now ....

The police were in no immediate danger, and he posed no thread outside of the streetcar. And if this is true that the person was a recent immigrant wanting to get away from violence in Syria only to be gunned down in a 'free and democratic' society makes this case all that much sadder. WTF.

[Argus]

On the surface, it seems like another example of "Obey me or else!" where police absolutely cannot stand to not be obeyed, and take immediate violent action because of that. This not very big guy had a 3 inch knife and was up in the streetcar alone. Five cops were gathered near the door holding guns. Were their lives in imminent danger? I don't think so. Three shots, then a pause of several seconds, where the guy is still clearly not near the doorway, then six more shots fired into the car. Why? Because he refused to obey orders. Police often seem to get infuriated when you don't obey them. Obviously this guy had mental health issue, running around with his wiener hanging out and brandishing a knife, but he didn't have to be killed. Even if the cops had been completely unarmed he presented little danger.

[scribblet]

I wonder if the streetcar had been cleared first and we don't know what happened before the final scene. I'd like to wait for the full story before rushing to judgement although it does appear that they really didn't have to kill him.

ETA: The streetcar had been evacuated because the guy was exposing himself and swinging a knife. Not that it excuses killing him like that, but the Chief is speaking now about the investigation.

Edited July 29, 2013 by scribblet

[The_Squid]

From looking at the video, there was no reason to shoot this guy right then. It looks like he was contained. He was still on the bus and the cops were well outside the danger zone of a knife.

Hopefully the police also have footage. As Eyeball would promote, they should be wearing cameras so there is a proper record of these types of incidents, justified or not. Luckily, someone had a camera, otherwise this would simply be labelled as justified ("he lunged at an officer") and that would be the end of it.

[GostHacked]

Luckily, someone had a camera, otherwise this would simply be labelled as justified ("he lunged at an officer") and that would be the end of it.

A camera is more of a threat to the police than a firearm now. Accountability.

[guyser]

Hopefully the police also have footage.

They do now, all TTC buses and streetcars have hi res video on them.

[GostHacked]

They do now, all TTC buses and streetcars have hi res video on them.

You'll find that there will be no video from the train. An excuse of 'camera was offline for maintenance' or something like that.

[Boges]

You'll find that there will be no video from the train. An excuse of 'camera was offline for maintenance' or something like that.

You won't even need to do that. Unless there's a trial, there is no reason to make the video public.

[GostHacked]

You won't even need to do that. Unless there's a trial, there is no reason to make the video public.

No I mean there will be no CCTV video at all. Hard to make it public when the video does not exist. I've seen it several other times were the CCTV was down for maintenance or something else meaning no critical video is available.

[Boges]

No I mean there will be no CCTV video at all. Hard to make it public when the video does not exist. I've seen it several other times were the CCTV was down for maintenance or something else meaning no critical video is available.

You're assuming collusion there. This is already pretty high profile. I'm sure there'll be plenty of oversight from the SIU and Media alike.

I guess it's good that there is a video then. Apparently Police can meet and get their story straight before meeting with the SIU. With a video already public it will be pretty tough for the "thin blue line" to protect the cops involved.

[Guest Derek L]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErxnWwMUYf0

This video isn't conclusive but it appears that a group of police executed a teenager on an empty TTC streetcar.

Even if he had a knife, I can't see that this treatment was justified.

Should be an interesting story going forward. Apparently social media has exploded in outrage over this shooting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/07/28/toronto-ttc-streetcar-fatal-police-shooting-siu.html?cmp=rss

You’re very right that the video wasn’t conclusive……..As reported, the young man was exposing himself and brandishing a knife, so I’d assume some form of mental illness and/or drug use to be present, and this you’ll find a common theme in many such police shootings. Such people tend not to be reasonable and corporative.

Now aside from the ranting’s about the authority of police not be “respected”, what are other reasons as to why the police would shoot someone? Two reasons, the suspect is a threat to the public and/or police…..Do we know what the suspect was saying to the passengers of the trolley? Or Police for that mater? Could he have claimed to have a gun or a bomb for example?

Truly all facts should be present before commencing to lynch the TTC.

[Boges]

Truly all facts should be present before commencing to lynch the TTC.

You mean the Toronto Police Service? The TTC isn't responsible for what happened.

The guy apparently ordered everyone off the bus so that's evidence he wasn't looking to hurt anyone. He can be heard calling the cops "pussies" which might likely caused tension.

The video also shows a cop being held back, meaning this maybe the result of a single rogue cop doing something he shouldn't do.

Hopefully the investigation leads to more clarity but from the evidence already available, it doesn't look good for the cops involved.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Boges

[Guest Derek L]

You mean the Toronto Police Service? The TTC isn't responsible for what happened.

I thought they were Transit cops that shot him....

The guy apparently order everyone off the bus so that's evidence he wasn't looking to hurt anyone. He can be heard calling the cops "pussies" which might likely caused tension.

The video also shows a cop being held back, meaning this maybe the result of a single rogue cop doing something he shouldn't do.

Hopefully the investigation leads to more clarity but from the evidence already available, it doesn't look good for the cops involved.

I agree more clarity is needed, as for optics, no shooting "looks good"..........Have any of the passengers of the trolley spoke up? What about the driver?

[GostHacked]

I thought they were Transit cops that shot him....

Then that makes this even more weird. And quite unsettling. And I hope we hear from those riders and the drive as you said.

[Boges]

I haven't heard that they were specifically transit cops. There were multiple officers on scene and you can hear sirens in the background. It's clear that street cops were called.

As far as I know, transit cops are stationed at subway stations.

[Guest Derek L]

Then that makes this even more weird. And quite unsettling. And I hope we hear from those riders and the drive as you said.

I hope we hear more details too.............None the less, I’ll side with the police until facts prove otherwise……..simply put, an unstable person with a knife is a scenario that is a common threat police train for……..From the video, it appears that the armed young man is relatively close to the officers, as such posed a threat to them.

Hollywood aside, a person armed with a knife can move rather quick, depending on distance, in some cases faster then it takes to fire an aimed double-tap into their chest. My question, were the multiple shots fired by a single officer?

[Guest Derek L]

I haven't heard that they were specifically transit cops. There were multiple officers on scene and you can hear sirens in the background. It's clear that street cops were called.

As far as I know, transit cops are stationed at subway stations.

I don't know, just what I heard somewhere earlier........the Lower Mainland transit police are everywhere

[Boges]

Hollywood aside, a person armed with a knife can move rather quick, depending on distance, in some cases faster then it takes to fire an aimed double-tap into their chest. My question, were the multiple shots fired by a single officer?

I'm sure that information will be discovered. Now made public is another thing complete.

What I find bothersome is there were shots, then a break, then more shots, then the kid was apparently tazed.

I know shooting a handgun isn't as easy as Hollywood would make it appear but 9 shots is a lot, unless you have the worst aim ever. At the very least, it seemed like overkill.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm sure that information will be discovered. Now made public is another thing complete.

What I find bothersome is there were shots, then a break, then more shots, then the kid was apparently tazed.

I know shooting a handgun isn't as easy as Hollywood would make it appear but 9 shots is a lot, unless you have the worst aim ever. At the very least, it seemed like overkill.

It’s very difficult, I use to do competitive police shooting and the formula is roughly a person can move 50 ft in ~10 seconds………10 seconds isn’t a lot of time for the brain to recognise the danger, view the back sight of the attacker (for things that might not want to get shot) and take two aimed shots all well the adrenaline is pumping and you fear for your life……….Even then, training at a range, in good lighting, well only having to beat a stopwatch is quite different then the real deal.

As to nine shots, that’s why I question if it were a single officer………..And to be quite honest, the overwhelming majority of police forces in Canada only have firearms qualifications once a year, well only paying for several days at the range leading up to it…….This is not sufficient to maintain perishable firearms skills for officers………Some forces, like the RCMP, allow their members to purchase discounted ammunition on their own dime, but this is still a very expensive proposition for the individual.

[Boges]

It’s very difficult, I use to do competitive police shooting and the formula is roughly a person can move 50 ft in ~10 seconds………10 seconds isn’t a lot of time for the brain to recognise the danger, view the back sight of the attacker (for things that might not want to get shot) and take two aimed shots all well the adrenaline is pumping and you fear for your life……….Even then, training at a range, in good lighting, well only having to beat a stopwatch is quite different then the real deal.

But he was isolated in a Streetcar. He would have had to first make a move to exit the Streetcar before he would be considered a threat. And if he made a move to leave the street car he would be a pretty easy target to hit, you'd think. As he would have to go down a few stairs first.

Again it's all speculative at this point.

[Guest Derek L]

But he was isolated in a Streetcar. He would have had to first make a move to exit the Streetcar before he would be considered a threat. And if he made a move to leave the street car he would be a pretty easy target to hit, you'd think. As he would have to go down a few stairs first.

Again it's all speculative at this point.

That makes it all the more difficult for officers………If I’m standing in the streetcar waving my dink and a knife around and you, an officer on the street with your weapon drawn, what elevation are you pointing your gun? And what’s behind me? Well you have to be cognisant if everybody in the building behind has their heads stuck out the window watching the commotion, I can cover the 20-40 feet inside a streetcar rather quick (say about 5-10 seconds), all the while you now have to aim at a moving target, that is advancing near perpendicular towards you……….Almost like leading a bird in flight with a shotgun, only your gun fires single projectiles, it’s at night, and I might be trying to kill you.

Maybe Bruce Willis could make that shot.

[GostHacked]

That makes it all the more difficult for officers………If I’m standing in the streetcar waving my dink and a knife around and you, an officer on the street with your weapon drawn, what elevation are you pointing your gun? And what’s behind me? Well you have to be cognisant if everybody in the building behind has their heads stuck out the window watching the commotion, I can cover the 20-40 feet inside a streetcar rather quick (say about 5-10 seconds), all the while you now have to aim at a moving target, that is advancing near perpendicular towards you……….Almost like leading a bird in flight with a shotgun, only your gun fires single projectiles, it’s at night, and I might be trying to kill you.

Maybe Bruce Willis could make that shot.

We've seen it in the US where innocent bystanders in homes received bullets because of action outside. Criminal and police shootings put the general public at risk.

[The_Squid]

That makes it all the more difficult for officers………If I’m standing in the streetcar waving my dink and a knife around and you, an officer on the street with your weapon drawn, what elevation are you pointing your gun? And what’s behind me? Well you have to be cognisant if everybody in the building behind has their heads stuck out the window watching the commotion, I can cover the 20-40 feet inside a streetcar rather quick (say about 5-10 seconds), all the while you now have to aim at a moving target, that is advancing near perpendicular towards you……….Almost like leading a bird in flight with a shotgun, only your gun fires single projectiles, it’s at night, and I might be trying to kill you.

Maybe Bruce Willis could make that shot.

The guy who was shot didn't look like he was doing any of what you describe. You are creating a scenario that never happened...

It looks like the cops had the situation under control (or should have) and there was no threat at the moment. Then he was shot. There may be more evidence and better video that may show the cops' lives were in danger... but so far it looks bad.

[GostHacked]

My guess on the tazer use is to make the claim they used the taser FIRST, not getting the response they wanted then the shots were fired by police. But we obviously know that the tazer came AFTER the shots.

If there was no video, we may have heard that the tazer was first and the shots second.