the EU catches Israel off-guard regarding its illegal settlements

[jacee]

It's really pointless to try and force Israel to deal with the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah.

What constructive alternative are you proposing, going forward?

Israel's big mistake was that they should have ...

wouldashouldacoulda ... This helps how?

[DogOnPorch]

What constructive alternative are you proposing, going forward?

wouldashouldacoulda ... This helps how?

1. The Arabs need to get rid of those three groups before sanity can set in. Good luck. You and a few other posters get a tad testy when Israel tries it.

2. Merely a comment to Rue. If and/or when the Arabs launch another attack, perhaps the Israelis will try that option instead of the previous arrangement. Don't be surprised if they do.

[jacee]

1. The Arabs need to get rid of those three groups before sanity can set in. Good luck. You and a few other posters get a tad testy when Israel tries it.

As I said, not constructive, not helpful.

Ruminating ad nauseam on 'Why we can't move forward' is a fool's game.

.

Edited January 1, 2014 by jacee

[DogOnPorch]

As I said, not constructive, not helpful.

Ruminating ad nauseam on 'Why we can't move forward' is a fool's game.

.

So, you advocate negotiations with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah? Fair enough. What are their demands?

[jacee]

So, you advocate negotiations with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah? Fair enough. What are their demands?

http://www.dw.de/the-faltering-middle-east-peace-process/a-17329703

Try to focus on HOW this can be made to work instead of why it never will.

.

[jacee]

Jacee I am not sure to what you were referring to but let's clarify what Mr.Abbas said because you are misstating what he said.

Let's be crystal clear Mr. Abbas is on record not once, but many times stating he will NOT recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

In fact the opposite. He has made it clear he will never accept Israel as a Jewish state. He stated he will

recognize a second state provided it is disbanded as a Jewish state and ANYONE who claims to be a Palestinian as long as they are not a Jew, is allowed to enter the country and be given a piece of land to own.

In the Abbas plan, the current Israeli Jews just disappear and no longer exist.

Please read what he has stated. Mr. Abbas is an extremist. He wrote his thesis on how the holocaust did not exist.

I am not sure what world you live in but to state his demand for a Palestinian state means he will recognize Israel is absurd when

he is on record as stating the opposite and since I have provided numerous references and repeated it over and over what he has actually said, you can go find out for yourself.

We're starting now from the assumption of a two-state solution, since Palestine is pursuing state status.

As for my opinion, like many Zionists I think expanding settlements are an obstacle to peace and I think extremist Jewish settlers on the West Bank are problematic for peace solutions to evolve but I also think as long as a blatant anti-Semite and anti Zionist like

Abbas remains in power and is posed by some of you as a reasonable man interested in peace there will be no peace either.

Mr. Netanyahu is not operating in a vacuum. Much of what he says is bluff and pose in direct response to the person he deals with, Mr. Abbas.

Let's get it clear. As long as Hamas, Fatah Hawks, Intifadah, Hezbollah, Al Quaeda and over 300 other terror cells I have listed in the past on this forum continue to exist dedicated to wiping out Israel and killing anyone who supports them world wide, there will be no peace.

For peace to come about the IRA disbanded and turned in its arms. Hezbollah lied. They said they would disarm the moment Israel left Lebanon. They lied, They openly stated they lied and laughed at Israel and attacked them the moment they left.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza Hamas attacked.

How is it we focus on Israel and what it must do Jacee but never a discussion on disarming terrorists and confronting their existence and realizing until they disband there can be no peace talks.

What you think its possible to live in peace with Hamas, Hezbollah? You think they magically go away if you ignore them and simply focus on Israel?

Been there done that. This lecturing what Israel should do with zero comment as to what the Arab world must do is pointless.

Its actually a crock.

Now disarm terrorists and find me some genuine moderate Arabs brave enough to take on their extremist religious fanatics and

I will find you Israelis and Zionists like me willing to do the same with ours.

Its easy to talk peace but there is no one at this point to talk peace with.

Who? Hezbollah? Syria? Iran? Sudan?

An 'ultimatum' approach right up front doesn't demonstrate real committment to a peace process. Typically it's more constructive to gain some success addressing practical issues that can be resolved. Often the larger 'demand' issues can be resolved once other details are in place that give a measure of comfort and security. Placing 'demand' issues up front is just creating an obstacle to resolutions and demonstrates lack of committment to real progress.

I am not here to apologize for any wrong-doings or mistakes Israel has made. Its not perfect.

But let's balance the equation. It takes 2 to tango.

Agreed ... and both have to 'wanna'.

[DogOnPorch]

http://www.dw.de/the-faltering-middle-east-peace-process/a-17329703

Try to focus on HOW this can be made to work instead of why it never will.

.

That's wonderful. Now, can I hear from yourself what you think Hamas's, Fatah's demands are specifically? No internet links, please. What do these groups want?

[jacee]

That's wonderful. Now, can I hear from yourself what you think Hamas's, Fatah's demands are specifically? No internet links, please. What do these groups want?

I'm not interested.

Just making the point that for progress to happen, those involved have to focus on the possible instead of whining and wallowing in the 'impossible' obstacles, as you tend to do.

Why don't you pick some areas where solutions can be found?

.

Edited January 1, 2014 by jacee

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not interested.

.

Of course not.

[jacee]

Of course not.

No of course not. You are just baiting with a red herring.

My question of you is can you identify some areas where positive progress can be made?

.

[DogOnPorch]

No of course not. You are just baiting with a red herring.

My question of you is can you identify some areas where positive progress can be made?

.

Not while dealing with terrorist organizations. My 'positive progress' would be for Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade and any other band of murderous terrorists to be outright eliminated. However, Israel released numerous imprisoned terrorist mass murderers over New Years...including one that murdered a pregnant woman and her children...and they were welcomed back as heroes...not pariahs. It's not just the terrorists that are f**ked in the head in the P.A.

[jacee]

Not while dealing with terrorist organizations. My 'positive progress' would be for Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade and any other band of murderous terrorists to be outright eliminated. However, Israel released numerous imprisoned terrorist mass murderers over New Years...including one that murdered a pregnant woman and her children...and they were welcomed back as heroes...not pariahs. It's not just the terrorists that are f**ked in the head in the P.A.

Not constructive.

No real committment to progress.

Carry on whining.

[DogOnPorch]

Not constructive.

No real committment to progress.

Carry on whining.

So you're OK negotiating with terrorists. I'd rather whine than stoop to supporting murder.

[jacee]

So you're OK negotiating with terrorists. I'd rather whine than stoop to supporting murder.

Yes it's clear that you have no committment to any progress toward resolutions.

.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes it's clear that you have no committment to any progress toward resolutions.

.

Sorry, unlike yourself, I have no desire to negotiate with terrorists and murderers...and neither should Israel.

[Rue]

Jacee thanks for your responses and I do appreciate your taking the time to debate unlike some lol.

I can only repeat what I have before. There are many peace groups with moderates-whether they are effective and reaching out to each other I can't tell you only that they exist and they do reach out.

ideally what we need is to get children on both sides to interact with each other in neutral environments. They have had programs that do this.

You ask me and I know some think it naïve I strongly believe in student exchange programs where Palestinian and Israeli children live together outside the Middle East. oh hell its no miracle cure or anything like that but it is a small start.

Also getting people on both sides to work on the same projects such as water, sanitation, buildings, roads.

The thing is Israel was doing that with Palestinians in Gaza. I witnessed it. I saw them build roads, schools, green-houses, together. Then I saw it all get blown up by Hamas and then people like me were ridiculed for thinking we could ever form a peaceful co-existence.

You know I have no time of day for Hamas, Hezbollah, or extremists from New York on the West Bank or fundamentalists of any religion. They all are a pain in my buttox but I am just one shmuck.

As for Dog he is only stating the obvious. All I can tell an idealist like you is do not give up being idealistic. I have not Jacee. I will not. At least I can tell you that. As much as I have witnessed absolute bs it never made me hate Arabs or give up on a peaceful life between Israelis and Arabs and it won't. That is what terrorists want.

The best thing you can do is encourage each side to talk to one another and recognize each other.

I know you are trying. At least you are.

Do I wonder sometimes if Netanyahu has missed some opportunities. Sometimes yes I do but I unfortunately know too much about Abbas and Arafat to think it would have made a difference. I believe Arafat made a fool out of Clinton who I believe tried as hard as any President to find a peaceful solution for both peoples.

I think Arafat made a travesty out of Clinton's efforts and I think Obama is not interested in Israel or the West Bank and has been the weakest of American leaders in the Middle East ever.

What the Middle East needs is a blunt neutral mediator like Colin Powell back there. We need a military man who understands posturing, defence issues, terrorism and failed political visions as Powell does.

Anyways Dog understands my contempt for terrorism better than anyone but don't think he dismisses everything else.

If you read carefully he has never criticized me for talking peace, ever. Never once. Nor for that matter has JBG. They know my disappointment and anger better than most including my having blasted them both out of frustration.

I wouldn't be too quick to label him as close minded as you think. Our mutual disgust with terrorists and extremists is only that.

You just keep talking peace this new year.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Rue

[jacee]

Jacee thanks for your responses and I do appreciate your taking the time to debate unlike some lol.

I can only repeat what I have before. There are many peace groups with moderates-whether they are effective and reaching out to each other I can't tell you only that they exist and they do reach out.

ideally what we need is to get children on both sides to interact with each other in neutral environments. They have had programs that do this.

You ask me and I know some think it naïve I strongly believe in student exchange programs where Palestinian and Israeli children live together outside the Middle East. oh hell its no miracle cure or anything like that but it is a small start.

Also getting people on both sides to work on the same projects such as water, sanitation, buildings, roads.

The thing is Israel was doing that with Palestinians in Gaza. I witnessed it. I saw them build roads, schools, green-houses, together.

Then I saw it all get blown up by Hamas and then people like me were ridiculed for thinking we could ever form a peaceful co-existence.

You know I have no time of day for Hamas, Hezbollah, or extremists from New York on the West Bank or fundamentalists of any religion. They all are a pain in my buttox but I am just one shmuck.

As for Dog he is only stating the obvious. All I can tell an idealist like you is do not give up being idealistic. I have not Jacee. I will not. At least I can tell you that. As much as I have witnessed absolute bs it never made me hate Arabs or give up on a peaceful life between Israelis and Arabs and it won't. That is what terrorists want.

The best thing you can do is encourage each side to talk to one another and recognize each other.

I know you are trying. At least you are.

Do I wonder sometimes if Netanyahu has missed some opportunities. Sometimes yes I do but I unfortunately know too much about Abbas and Arafat to think it would have made a difference. I believe Arafat made a fool out of Clinton who I believe tried as hard as any President to find a peaceful solution for both peoples.

I think Arafat made a travesty out of Clinton's efforts and I think Obama is not interested in Israel or the West Bank and has been the weakest of American leaders in the Middle East ever.

What the Middle East needs is a blunt neutral mediator like Colin Powell back there. We need a military man who understands posturing, defence issues, terrorism and failed political visions as Powell does.

Anyways Dog understands my contempt for terrorism better than anyone but don't think he dismisses everything else.

If you read carefully he has never criticized me for talking peace, ever. Never once. Nor for that matter has JBG. They know my disappointment and anger better than most including my having blasted them both out of frustration.

I wouldn't be too quick to label him as close minded as you think. Our mutual disgust with terrorists and extremists is only that.

You just keep talking peace this new year.

It all comes down to the ordinary people being in control of their governments, doesn't it, and not being swayed by extremists who only like the fight. Frankly, I think that currently describes powerful elements in Israel as well as Hamas, Hezbollah et al.

I love the iniatives you described. I hope they can soon resume. Therein lie the solutions ... with the people.

.

[jacee]

Sorry, unlike yourself, I have no desire to negotiate with terrorists and murderers...and neither should Israel.

Where would you start?

[DogOnPorch]

Where would you start?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22882-the-eu-catches-israel-off-guard-regarding-its-illegal-settlements/?p=938631

[jacee]

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22882-the-eu-catches-israel-off-guard-regarding-its-illegal-settlements/?p=938631

Right. You wouldn't at this time.

Well let's hope for some loosening up of the hardliners on both sides so they more accurately represent the wishes of their people.

[DogOnPorch]

Right. You wouldn't at this time.

Well let's hope for some loosening up of the hardliners on both sides so they more accurately represent the wishes of their people.

Being against terrorism and terrorists is NOT being a hardliner. But your willingness and desire to work with them is naive and foolish.

[GostHacked]

Being against terrorism and terrorists is NOT being a hardliner. But your willingness and desire to work with them is naive and foolish.

If only the use of the word 'terrorism' was applied the same way in all cases. Intelligence services operating to undermine any government should be considered terrorism. That includes things like the CIA, KGB.

Israel is suspected of carrying out operation in Iran. Stuxnet for example. Cyber terrorism. But terrorism all the same.

[DogOnPorch]

If only the use of the word 'terrorism' was applied the same way in all cases. Intelligence services operating to undermine any government should be considered terrorism. That includes things like the CIA, KGB.

Israel is suspected of carrying out operation in Iran. Stuxnet for example. Cyber terrorism. But terrorism all the same.

I'm referring to the pregnant woman butchering type of terrorist. The ones common to the region. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, etc.

As for Stuxnet, if it was Israel...it was aimed directly at Iran's nuclear weapons program. Not terrorism. Nobody was terrorized.

[GostHacked]

I'm referring to the pregnant woman butchering type of terrorist. The ones common to the region. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, etc.

Why focus on just those forms of terrorism? Why are you not against all terrorism in general?

As for Stuxnet, if it was Israel...it was aimed directly at Iran's nuclear weapons program. Not terrorism. Nobody was terrorized.

HA , if Iran has done that to Israel, you would be screaming terrorism louder than anyone else on here. Call it for what it is Dog. You have just proved that the use of the word terrorism is not evenly applied.

Stuxnet is a weapon. Developed by the US and Israel.

http://www.examiner.com/article/stuxnet-computer-worm-represents-a-dangerous-evolution-cyber-terrorism

And if you even go with the notion that this is a retaliatory attack for Iran's terrorist activities, it falls within terrorism because whoever got into Iran to upload the virus was not wearing a standard military uniform using standard military tactics. Just going with you previous statements on that.

[DogOnPorch]

Why focus on just those forms of terrorism? Why are you not against all terrorism in general?

HA , if Iran has done that to Israel, you would be screaming terrorism louder than anyone else on here. Call it for what it is Dog. You have just proved that the use of the word terrorism is not evenly applied.

Stuxnet is a weapon. Developed by the US and Israel.

http://www.examiner.com/article/stuxnet-computer-worm-represents-a-dangerous-evolution-cyber-terrorism

And if you even go with the notion that this is a retaliatory attack for Iran's terrorist activities, it falls within terrorism because whoever got into Iran to upload the virus was not wearing a standard military uniform using standard military tactics. Just going with you previous statements on that.

If all you have is hypothetical scenarios of what I might do...you have nothing. You, frankly, do not know WHAT I think or do.

Terrorism terrorizes. Anything else is a misuse of the term.