GostHacked Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 If all you have is hypothetical scenarios of what I might do...you have nothing. You, frankly, do not know WHAT I think or do. Am I right to conclude that what you post and what you believe in, are two different things? Careful. Terrorism terrorizes. Anything else is a misuse of the term. I agree. So let's apply the term evenly. It's not like civilized western nations engage in terrorist activities, right? I am with you 100% that the term has been misused. Then the next thing you type would be, claiming I misused the term. That's how these threads go. But I have no idea what you are thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Am I right to conclude that what you post and what you believe in, are two different things? Careful. I agree. So let's apply the term evenly. It's not like civilized western nations engage in terrorist activities, right? I am with you 100% that the term has been misused. Then the next thing you type would be, claiming I misused the term. That's how these threads go. But I have no idea what you are thinking. Meh...I know what a terrorist attack is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 As for Dog he is only stating the obvious. All I can tell an idealist like you is do not give up being idealistic. I have not Jacee. I will not. At least I can tell you that. As much as I have witnessed absolute bs it never made me hate Arabs or give up on a peaceful life between Israelis and Arabs and it won't. That is what terrorists want. Do I wonder sometimes if Netanyahu has missed some opportunities. Sometimes yes I do but I unfortunately know too much about Abbas and Arafat to think it would have made a difference. I believe Arafat made a fool out of Clinton who I believe tried as hard as any President to find a peaceful solution for both peoples. I think Arafat made a travesty out of Clinton's efforts and I think Obama is not interested in Israel or the West Bank and has been the weakest of American leaders in the Middle East ever. What the Middle East needs is a blunt neutral mediator like Colin Powell back there. We need a military man who understands posturing, defence issues, terrorism and failed political visions as Powell does. Anyways Dog understands my contempt for terrorism better than anyone but don't think he dismisses everything else. If you read carefully he has never criticized me for talking peace, ever. Never once. Nor for that matter has JBG. They know my disappointment and anger better than most including my having blasted them both out of frustration. I wouldn't be too quick to label him as close minded as you think. Our mutual disgust with terrorists and extremists is only that. You just keep talking peace this new year. I'm all for peace in the Middle East. It's Mom and apple pie stuff. But, need I remind you that there's no way in Hell that Canada or the USA would be giving-up chunks of real estate to murderers of our civilians at bus stops? That somebody thinks it's a good idea is no doubt a case of 'as long as it's not happening to me' sort of deal. I doubt Kerry needs to worry too much about about being killed in this fashion...or by the murderers he just had released into the population at large to a hero's welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I'm all for peace in the Middle East. It's Mom and apple pie stuff. But, need I remind you that there's no way in Hell that Canada or the USA would be giving-up chunks of real estate to murderers of our civilians at bus stops? That somebody thinks it's a good idea is no doubt a case of 'as long as it's not happening to me' sort of deal. I doubt Kerry needs to worry too much about about being killed in this fashion...or by the murderers he just had released into the population at large to a hero's welcome. As you said, you are Canadian and don't have a say so maybe it's better to leave it to those directly involved to decide what they will and won't do. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 As you said, you are Canadian and don't have a say so maybe it's better to leave it to those directly involved to decide what they will and won't do. . Where does John Kerry hail from? Yeah...back to bed with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Where does John Kerry hail from? Yeah...back to bed with you.??? grow up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) ??? grow up Your solution: deal with terrorists in hopes they eat you last. Edited January 2, 2014 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Where does John Kerry hail from? Yeah...back to bed with you. he hails from the country that gives $3 billion a year and political support in order to let it get away with the human rights violations and breaking international law. perhaps it's time for the u.s. to stop being israel's sugar daddy and cut it off for not being a good listener, just like it did with egypt. maybe saudi and israel's friendship can grow even more as they seem to already have become bff's. those wahabists who were behind 9/11 and al queda have lots of oil money to help israel out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Seems Fatah & crew also get suitcases full of cash from outside sources...including the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Seems Fatah & crew also get suitcases full of cash from outside sources...including the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians what does a minuscule amount of money compared to what israel receives have anything to do what israel needs to do in order to respond to its sugar daddy? straw-man much? is the israeli government going to continue to do what it can to not achieve a peaceful and just solution? because every action they're taking suggests this. including the increasing of settlements and wanting full control of the jordan valley. it's time for kerry to play u.s.' cards right and treat israel the way a father would towards a belligerent spoiled little child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 what does a minuscule amount of money compared to what israel receives have anything to do what israel needs to do in order to respond to its sugar daddy? straw-man much? is the israeli government going to continue to do what it can to not achieve a peaceful and just solution? because every action they're taking suggests this. including the increasing of settlements and wanting full control of the jordan valley. it's time for kerry to play u.s.' cards right and treat israel the way a father would towards a belligerent spoiled little child. Billions of dollars isn't minuscule and more than just the USA forks over cash to the Palestinian Arabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Billions of dollars isn't minuscule and more than just the USA forks over cash to the Palestinian Arabs. it is minuscule, considering this money is barely enough to keep the west bank afloat, since israel continues to choke it with its occupation and economic squeeze and the occasional withholding of the palestinian tax money. israel on the other hand has an open and fairly strong economy but also receives over 3 billion a year to spend on military weapons. stop trying to equating the two, because it doesn't make sense. on top of this, the money that the EU and u.s. gives to the powerless palestinian government in the west bank is already used to push palestinians to make concessions in a deal. israel should experience the same thing by the u.s. kerry should put the spoiled little child in its place and tell it who its sugar daddy is. unfortunately, many of the u.s. politicians are prostitutes to the zionist lobby and will do whatever aipac demands of them. this makes it difficult for obama to push israel. these are the realities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 it is minuscule, considering this money is barely enough to keep the west bank afloat, since israel continues to choke it with its occupation and economic squeeze and the occasional withholding of the palestinian tax money. israel on the other hand has an open and fairly strong economy but also receives over 3 billion a year to spend on military weapons. stop trying to equating the two, because it doesn't make sense. on top of this, the money that the EU and u.s. gives to the powerless palestinian government in the west bank is already used to push palestinians to make concessions in a deal. israel should experience the same thing by the u.s. kerry should put the spoiled little child in its place and tell it who its sugar daddy is. unfortunately, many of the u.s. politicians are prostitutes to the zionist lobby and will do whatever aipac demands of them. this makes it difficult for obama to push israel. these are the realities. That you're jealous Israel receives more funding than Fatah and Hamas from the USA isn't Israel's problem. Perhaps your side should find a better source of funding. Pass the cup around at the CJPME...like you don't already. As for being 'choked'...the Arabs should have said 'yes' to a Palestinian state rather than choosing the path of war. They chose war and lost. Had the gamble worked, Israel would be gone...perhaps a million more Jews would have been butchered by al-Husseini...and we wouldn't be discussing this in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Billions of dollars isn't minuscule and more than just the USA forks over cash to the Palestinian Arabs. What good is the money when they cannot import certain materials to even build houses with? The embargo/blockade that Israel has in place to prevent many things, some essential to survival from reaching the occupied territories. It takes a bulldozer to raze a city. Many Palestinians have had their homes destroyed because of some permit legalities that show Israel is in control of the occupied territories in ALL manners. Yet, Israel has no problem with expanding their settlements (illegally of course), in the occupied territories and should one of their fortified enclaves get attacked, then Israel is all up in a stink about it. Israel is taking a systematic deliberate approach through roads, checkpoints and settlements to annex all of the occupied territories into Israel proper. The trend continues. Very two faced approach to the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 What good is the money when they cannot import certain materials to even build houses with? The embargo/blockade that Israel has in place to prevent many things, some essential to survival from reaching the occupied territories. It takes a bulldozer to raze a city. Many Palestinians have had their homes destroyed because of some permit legalities that show Israel is in control of the occupied territories in ALL manners. Yet, Israel has no problem with expanding their settlements (illegally of course), in the occupied territories and should one of their fortified enclaves get attacked, then Israel is all up in a stink about it. Israel is taking a systematic deliberate approach through roads, checkpoints and settlements to annex all of the occupied territories into Israel proper. The trend continues. Very two faced approach to the whole thing. That's nice. I guess they should have said 'yes' to their own country back when given the chance rather than stating a war they couldn't finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 That's nice. I guess they should have said 'yes' to their own country back when given the chance rather than stating a war they couldn't finish. You don't support a two state solution do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 You don't support a two state solution do you? Not on Arab terms...nope. If Israel dictates...then yes. But, this should have been solved just like Viet-Nam. I never hear anybody complaining South Viet-Nam is missing from the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Ghost this thread is going in the usual circle so I am trying not to add to it but I would like to repudiate one point and that is the one you made that Israel is trying to annex the West Bank. No its not. That is foolish to say. There are far too many Palestinians on the West Bank for Israel to want to do that. If that had been the intention it would have done that back in 1967. Think about it. A country planning to annex the West Bank would not have sat back after occupying it and not expunge the Palestinians. It would have forced them all out if that was the intention. See on this forum we hear b.s. about Israel engaging in genocide and ethnic cleansing. I have called that bull from the get go for the obvious reason. It has never tried to expunge Palestinians. Never. Yes it has placed a maze of check points up but they are as much an obstacle to Israelis on the West Bank as Palestinians. The checks and body searches and car stops are done on everyone. You would know that if you had been there. You would also know that Palestinians and Israelis both hate all those check points but it is a direct consequence of terrorism that has been a reality on the West Bank since the 1920's and is why Jordan who originally actually annexed the West Bank got out of it. You might want to examine what a real annexation is. Israel can not absorb the West Bank because it does not want to inherit the millions of Palestinians as Israeli citizens. They would necessarily bring the Jewish majority in Israel to end. As well if Israel had intended to wipe out or move out all the Palestinians it would have done so back in 1967. It would not have sat back and watched Palestinians populate at the rate of over 100 to every 1 Israeli born on the West Bank, Israel does not want the West Bank and never did. What it wants is a prevention of the West Bank being used as a staging ground for terrorism by Fatah Hawks, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Period. The original settlers were used as early warning posts to radio in movements of terrorists. Now that satellite technology is available their use as sentry posts is no longer needed. Israel knows that but it has three kinds of people on the West Bank under its direct control. It vested itself of day to day governing of Palestinians years ago. It has about 200,000 Israelis who moved to the West bank because they were broke, and needed homes and thy were given tax incentives to do so. These people were not and are not interested in hurting anyone. They are just people trying to live. Another 200,000 are ultra orthodox Jews who do NOT recognize the state of Israel. They believe until the messiah returns Israel should not be made a Jewish state. They consider Israel and Jews like me an abomination. They want nothing to do with us. They have been used for example by Iran in anti Israeli propaganda demonstrations. Some of these went to the anti holocaust activities in Iran and pranced around like idiots being used for photo ops. These people live in the stone age. They shut out the actual world. They live in a cult closed of world. They think the Muslim terrorists will eave them alone. They live in Hebron. Arafat said the first thing he would do is to ship them all back to Europe if he could. That is what he told his people while telling the West he respected these Jews and had no problem with anti Zionist Jews. See some of us read what is actually communicated to Palestinians and not the Western press. Another 200,000 and it breaks down roughly 33% each are political. They believe strongly that Judea and Somaria and the Jewish nation includes the West Bank and Jordan was illegally seized to make anon Jewish Palestinian state and the assumption the West Bank does not belong to Jews is legally incorrect. Most of the people on this forum have no clue as to the legal arguments such people could make in international court to establish rights to own land on the West Bank. People just assume no Jew has a right to live on the West Bank. In fact Arafat deliberately burned down the Land Titles office to prevent the law from proving who actually owned the land on the West bank because in international court those land titles would prevail and not be ignored. Arafat believed not just Jews, but certain Palestinians had ownership rights to the lands and he did not want that happening as these were not people who agreed with his politics-these were Palestinians that did not like him because the fact is Arafat was not Palestinian he was Egyptian, and because he came to power through his Uncle the Mufti of Jerusalem and not because he was a Palestinian hero but because he ran drug caravans and used his control of the ground from his drug routes as a trade off to the French to keep himself in power. In return for being able to run hash hish and opium trough Afghanistan and Iran and Turkey through Iraq, Lebanon and Syria and then on to Marseilles, France and then on to New York, Arafat was nothing but a drug pusher protected by La Deuxieme Bureau. He used Palestinians. He bled them dry and his bank accounts in France and Switzerland have all been exposed as were the activities of La Deuxieme Bureau. Arafat was a darling of the West while he flooded it with heroin and hash. Period. The average Palestinian knew what he was. They never liked him but felt they had no other leader. Mr.Abbas is a left over vestige of his empire. He is as corrupt and has contempt for the average Palestinian. The average Palestinian on the West Bank are paralyzed. They detest Arafat, they detest Fatah Hawks, they detest Hamas, they detest Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Lebanon,Jordan, Egypt as much as they do Israel. In fact they probably in some respects have less hatred for Israel then some of these other countries since many worked in Israel and would work there again. The ground situation on the West Bank is not a matter of Israel wanting to annex the land. You have to read the policies of the Israeli government and understand what it has done to prevent such a thing from happening. You mistake deliberate land conflicts in Jerusalem with the rest of the West Bank. Yes on the East side of Jerusalem, there are legal disputes but its not simply Israeli v.Palestinian and it never was. The majority of the land on the Eastern side is owned by Christian churches whose land rights are not recognized by Abbas but are recognized by Israel. Israel pays rent directly to these churches because they built their government buildings on much of this land. The churches have land rights Israel recognizes but the Palestinian Authority refuses. That is because Zionism acknowledges the right of Christian and Muslim land ownership. On the other hand there is no Muslim nation in the world let alone the Middle East that recognizes the right of a Jew or Christian to own land. You would know that if you studied Sharia law and what dhimmitude is and what the word khafir means. You don't. You read sound bites but you haven't been on the ground. You don't get how Sharia law works, the ancient Jewish legal ownership to the land and the Christian ownership of the land. I read it on this forum. Its just assumed Jews and Christians have no rights on the West Bank. No. The reality is both people have established in law the right to own land there through legal title that international courts would recognize. People confuse these individual land rights with national sovereign control of the land. They are not the same legal concept although the Palestinian Authority believes when it establishes a Palestinian state, it will not have to recognize any non Muslim land rights and will have the right to unilaterally expel Christians and Jews. They have also stated they only way they will establish a Palestinian state is if along with that state on the West Bank, Israel takes in millions of Palestinians and give them land taking it away from people on it now and dismantling Israel as a Jewish state. That would then lead to a unification of both states into one Sharia law state. That is the express intention of Abbas. Arafat ripped up the Oslo Accords stating they were just a joke to him, and he was just stringing Clinton along and Clinton should have known he was not serious. You won't take into context the full story. If you did you would realize had it been Israel's intent to annex the West Bank it would have expelled the Palestinians long ago. It also would never have given back the Sinai to Egypt or enter into a not to secret understanding with the Jordanian monarchy that Israel would support Jordan in the event of another attempt by the Palestinian Authority to seize Jordan. Let's get it clear. Israelis made up of only 20% of the actual land intended for a Jewish state. 80% of it was illegally seize and turned into the Palestinian state of Jordan which does not allow Jews to be citizens in the country or own land. The West Bank was never earmarked as a Palestinian state. It was never part of a Palestinian state. The concept of turning it into a second Palestinian state only arose after Arafat was unsuccessful in seizing Jordan in a civil uprising called the Black Sabbath uprising in 1967 which happened a few months before the war of1967 in which Israel occupied the West Bank after continuous attacks fromt he West Bank on Israel. You want to understand what the problem is,drive from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and see how narrow the border is and why terrorists on the West Bank used it to pick off and kill thousands of Jews. Israel's borders have to be defensible. It can not sit back and die. On the other hand from a practical perspective it has always understood a second Palestinian state could be part of an overall solution. Ideally an economic free market between Israel,Palestine and Jordan and then Lebanon would make the most sense. It won't happen because extremists in Lebanon and the West Bank will never allow that and for that matter Jordanians are faced with serious economic issues and feel as threatened by Syria and Lebanon and Iran as they are by Hamas and Abbas. Its complex but to say Israel wants the West Bank is foolish. Israel could have also on at least 4 instances taken over Damascus or Beirut. Why? For those of you geniuses who think you understand you don't. One day hopefully terrorists can be disarmed so peace talks can come about. Until then, we are in a stalemate. Israel won't back down from the threat of extremist terrorists who monopolize Palestinian politics. Until they step down and Palestinian moderates can emerge and speak openly without fear of being killed, progress probably won't happen. I witnessed Palestinian mothers being threatened by Fatah taking their young sons away. I saw the body of someone rubber necklaced because his crime was working in Israel. You think Israel wants to govern the West Bank? Why do you think it keeps its communities separate-precisely because it doesn't want to govern Palestinians. Would Israel ask its settlers to get up and move? Would you? The answer is complex-if they thought it would lead to peace yes-if they think it will only embolden Palestinians to engage in a new war-no they won't. Do I believe in a two state solution. Yes. Do I want two peaceful states living side by side. Of course. 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jbg Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Palestinians have a right to defend their land. I am glad you agree.So that means they have a right to "defend" all of what's now Israel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 How do you expect them to actually establish a uniformed military into to fight fair? It's not like Israel engages in am embargo on the occupied territories to prevent that kind of thing from happened. So blowing up pregnant women may actually be a viable option. We have the Israeli military protecting these illegal settlements on occupied territory land and you seem upset that some are defending their lands by attacking others.Who says that there is a G-d given right to be able to wage war successfully? Ask Canada how often they would have liked to stand up to the U.S.'s military might. Maybe some peoples are better off by going along to get along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 As for being 'choked'...the Arabs should have said 'yes' to a Palestinian state rather than choosing the path of war. They chose war and lost. Had the gamble worked, Israel would be gone...perhaps a million more Jews would have been butchered by al-Husseini...and we wouldn't be discussing this in 2014. Are you arguing for the status quo? One state solution? Two state solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 That you're jealous Israel receives more funding than Fatah and Hamas from the USA isn't Israel's problem. Perhaps your side should find a better source of funding. Pass the cup around at the CJPME...like you don't already. As for being 'choked'...the Arabs should have said 'yes' to a Palestinian state rather than choosing the path of war. They chose war and lost. Had the gamble worked, Israel would be gone...perhaps a million more Jews would have been butchered by al-Husseini...and we wouldn't be discussing this in 2014. jealous? my side? you're so consumed by this "us vs them" that you've thrown away any sense of integrity, morality and justice. this is a matter of international law and morality. why don't you want to fight for those two? as i mentioned; just like you, many israelis have consumed themselves with this 'us vs. them' and this is the trigger to accept and allow their government to continue to behave like it is today; a rogue state that doesn't respect international law and human rights. this is why israel cannot be trusted to do the right thing. it must be pressured by a the international community, which it is through the bds movement and by a u.s. president that can stand up to the powerful zionist lobby that has a lot of influence on the senate and congress, through the millions of dollars it gives to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 It's not me telling Kerry they won't accept Israel as a Jewish state. That would be your friends, Fatah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Are you arguing for the status quo? One state solution? Two state solution? Are you OK with the way the Viet-Nam war ended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Ghost this thread is going in the usual circle so I am trying not to add to it but I would like to repudiate one point and that is the one you made that Israel is trying to annex the West Bank. No its not. Both you and I agree the settlements are a problem. This is how the annexation has been happening over the past few decades. A slow encroaching in the occupied territories. And yes I would remove all Isreali settlements in all parts of the occupied territories. Edited January 6, 2014 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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