Maher Arar, & the families in Lac Megantic

[Michael Hardner]

In some cases, yes, expect failure.

So we should expect that the government spies on us, that money is wasted, that people die in the healthcare system with no investigation on how to prevent future deaths ?

I don't buy it, sorry.

[Michael Hardner]

Most of the rest of this thread seems like a tiresome explanation of legal responsibility.

Look - if the government, or a private company has to pay a lawsuit or settle out of court, the taxpayers or shareholders pay. The comeuppance comes in that the guy (or girl... but let's face it: guy) at the top of the pyramid wears the egg that somebody in his vast army of slaves broke... on his face.

That's why they get the big bucks, that's why they have their pictures on stamps, annual shareholder reports, and protesters' placards.

Auguste - for a conservative, you seem to want for huge fundamental changes in how society is put together. At least that's what is implied.

Here's one difference you might have highlighted if you were a so-called *leftist*: if I own a limited liability company that does great harm, and the harm done exceeds the value of the company itself then I can declare bankruptcy and walk away with the riches that the company has given me over the years. It's pretty rare that the victims of my enterprise (or if you were leftist, my 'greed') would be able to pierce the corporate veil and oblige me to pay for their medical bills, failed businesses and funerals.

[bleeding heart]

The federal government paid $10 million to Maher Arar. One guy.

Why doesn't the federal government pay at least $200,000 to each of the families "In A Small Town In Quebec"?

In Leftist think: It's only taxpayer money, and surely the errors in Lac Megantic are more egregious than the errors of Maher Arar,

----

I'm sorry you believe that the "leftist" CPC government has been remiss in financial help for these victims; and that the "leftist" CPC government was too generous to Arar.

The "left's" baleful influence runs deep and wide, it would appear.

[WWWTT]

"Sadly" ?!?!?!!

If you want to talk about 'sad', read about the agony of the people of Lac Megantic.

At a time when most people are feeling compassion for the human tragedies and grief of the people of Lac Megantic, your only concern, and reason for starting this thread, is that they'll somehow threaten Harper into paying them some compensation, which may amount to a a bit of your pocket change?!?!?!!

(Maher Arar's settlement might have cost you a loonie.)

An absolutely creepy attack on people suffering great losses.

Just curious: Why aren't you also attacking the people of Alberta for their flood relief and compensation?

Bang on Jacee!

Those poor people are the victims of an incompetent government,they deserve the payout.

But somehow,when Mulcair does his job,he's criticized for playing politics (funny that a politician wants to talk about political responsibility)

WWWTT

[guyser]

Those poor people are the victims of an incompetent government,they deserve the payout.

The govt derailed a train?

Wow, who knew?

[AlienB]

Pesonally I think if negligence in the policy can be found, and I think that there might be grounds for that, then yes the federal government would be one party, the other of course would be the company shiping the dangerous substance and not protecting the public while doing so.

Gross Negligence causing bodily harm and death is a "criminal" charge, not a civil charge although restitution orders could come out of it.

Frankly the way industry is run in Canada is just disgusting the level of public harm that is ignored. The tobacco industry, the pipeline industry, the transport industry, chemical manufacture industry, mining industries.. there are all killing Canadians. The government just opts to medicate the issue and bury the dead. That isn't good enough, imo.

few

What I recall about this is that the local community complained before this disaster, ti was an active issue, another coincidence.

Personally I've requested the mainline moved to bypass the town I live in. It makes no sense to have the mainlines of raillines transporting dangerous goods go through the heart of populated centers. They should bypass populated areas and have depots outside of residential areas. Personally the trains which are going to go from 5 or so a day are due to shoot up to 7 or more if/when the ring of fire comes online. They are destroying my houses foundation, and they run 24/7 which means I get woken up atleast a few times each night for the late night after midnight train and the before dawn train, as they even in the middle of the night blow their horn every time they enter town. It is just stupid to have it coming into the heart of town. The fact there have been derailments around here... only increases the point that, no you don't need to run these things through populated areas or bodies of water where you have no ability to stop a spill.

it is just stupid transport planning. It intentionally compromises safety for no reason other than history.. that the rail when it didn't transport lethal substances faciliitated growth of communities, now it is a gun to their heads. It is not safe. The lines profit, so why not force them to rebuild and write in some tax breaks to do that, allow it as an operating cost... the company looses nothing and people gain.

Check this..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/oil-deliveries-send-cn-to-record-revenue/article7618170/

It is a fact that oil production will continue to outpace pipeline capacity this means rail or ship are the only ways to ship in bulk.. what this means is oil deliveries by rail are bound to increase massively. The shipping containers used leak during derailment, it is a disaster waiting to happen. If they are getting so much more profit, damn why don't they divert the lines out of communities, and likewise establish more derailment response capacities, more security, and more track safety, and better tanker standards for ones that don't leak on accident.

None the less... the money is there get them to fix the dangers. It is just corporatism contrary to the public good.

Alberta is landlocked for the most part. They don't have the dough to build a pipeline through northern Sask, and Manitoba.. to an oil shipyard on the coast of hudson bay.. if its not that it is rail..

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/10/31/oil-producers-eye-arctic-backup-plan-as-pipelines-face-uncertain-future/

Give first nations groups a royalty cut, hire them to do pipeline security while they hunt or whatever.. and be on with it, the Russians will love it. They are running out of oil within the next 10 years.

Here is a bulk list of first nations that could be part of the hudson gateway

Sayisi Dene FIrst Nation

Fort Severn

Hatchat Lake

North Lands

Barren Lands

Black Lake

Athabasca Chippeweya

Beaver First Nation

You know give them 51% profit on the line, and get the Canadian rangers and locals for on site security of sensitive environmental areas, water quality testing etc..

Edited July 17, 2013 by AlienB

[August1991]

Three Points:

1. Other People's Money (a politician's perspective)

I've been writing under a mistaken belief; I thought Arar took his case to court and it was there determined that he had been wrongly accused and treated by Canadian officials. As you seem to already know, he received his payment out of court.

It was an out of court settlement because Harper wanted this story out of the headlines. You'll notice that we never hear of Maher Arar nowadays. (You'll also notice that we never hear about softwood lumber either, but that's another, similar story of Harper using other people's money to solve a political problem.)

2. Other People's Money (a voter's perspective)

"Sadly" ?!?!?!!
If you want to talk about 'sad', read about the agony of the people of Lac Megantic.
At a time when most people are feeling compassion for the human tragedies and grief of the people of Lac Megantic, your only concern, and reason for starting this thread, is that they'll somehow threaten Harper into paying them some compensation, which may amount to a a bit of your pocket change?!?!?!!

(Maher Arar's settlement might have cost you a loonie.)

An absolutely creepy attack on people suffering great losses.

Just curious: Why aren't you also attacking the people of Alberta for their flood relief and compensation?

Only a loonie? In fact the Arar settlement cost me three dimes, 30 cents. Jacee, it's so easy to spend other people's money - when you have access to the money of millions of people. Among the various powers a politician holds, it is the power to tax that is the most scary to me. A politician can take one cent from a million people, and give $10,000 to one person. Who notices losing a penny? Who notices a cheque for $10,000?

Edited July 18, 2013 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

Auguste - it's the same with shareholders...

[August1991]

3. Incentives

Pesonally I think if negligence in the policy can be found, and I think that there might be grounds for that, then yes the federal government would be one party, the other of course would be the company shiping the dangerous substance and not protecting the public while doing so..

AlienB, by talking of "negligence", you get to the heart of my OP.

Did the people who caused the harm to Maher Arar suffer in any way? Did the guards in his Syrian prison pay a penalty? Did the American CIA agents who claimed that he was a terrorist suffer? Did the Canadian diplomats in Damascus who visited him in prison suffer any penalty for their behaviour? No, Canadian taxpayers paid on average 30 cents each.

It's as if a child disrupted a class and the teacher decided the punishment would be reducing the grade of the smart pupils on the next test.

What kind of incentive does that create?

[g_bambino]

It was an out of court settlement because Harper wanted this story out of the headlines.

You don't know that; that's only your suspicion.

Regardless, Arar had a case against the federal government (the federal Crown, if you will). So far, there's been no hint that anyone in Lac-Megantic does.

[August1991]

Auguste - it's the same with shareholders...

No it's not. I can change the shares that I hold (in individual companies!) whenever the market is open. I have only one vote in an election every few years or so.

More pointedly, I can stop buying the product of a corporation that I dilsike. How do I refuse the services of the "Harper Government"?

[August1991]

You don't know that; that's only your suspicion.

Regardless, Arar had a case against the federal government (the federal Crown, if you will). So far, there's been no hint that anyone in Lac-Megantic does.

Harper settled with Arar. Harper could have taken the case to the Supreme Court (Harper has done that) but that would have meant Maher Arar would be the darling of the Toronto Media Left for a decade or so.

Politics is controlling the agenda; and democratic politics is theatre - controlling what's on the stage.

Harper chose to move Arar off the Internet, newspapers. Like softwood lumber, we never hear of Arar much now.

----

In this, let me change the topic a bit - without changing it. Unlike Maher Arar, David Suzuki can't be bought. Suzuki won't shut up.

Edited July 18, 2013 by August1991

[g_bambino]

Harper settled with Arar. Harper could have taken the case to the Supreme Court (Harper has done that) but that would have meant Mahar Arar would be the darling of the Toronto Media Left for a decade or so.

It also might've meant Arar could've walked away with more than 10 million of "your" money.

[August1991]

It also might've meant Arar could've walked away with more than 10 million of "your" money.

Your post frightens me. My money, the Crown's money? Indirectly, Bambino, you admit the truth. It's not the Crown's money - it's the money of citizens like me.

IMV, to further his political career, Harper used my money, to pay off Arar who walked away with $10 million.

And if I understand you properly, Bambino, Harper should have negotiated a better deal.

Edited July 18, 2013 by August1991

[WWWTT]

The govt derailed a train?

Wow, who knew?

The government has no responsibility in setting any standards in safety and hazardous materials through transport Canada?

Wow,who knew

WWWTT

[August1991]

The government has no responsibility in setting any standards in safety and hazardous materials through transport Canada?

Wow,who knew

WWWTT

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly? Because after all.,there is no such thing as "government" or "the State" or even "society" - there is only individuals. Like it or not, we live and die alone - as individuals.

Of course we can co-operate while alive - but as individuals.

[guyser]

The government has no responsibility in setting any standards in safety and hazardous materials through transport Canada?

Wow,who knew

WWWTT

Yes they do.

As far as you know....you have no idea if standards were not met exceeded or circumvented. Yours is just some childish attack on Harper.

The thing is, you dont know.

[Scotty]

Your post frightens me. My money, the Crown's money? Indirectly, Bambino, you admit the truth. It's not the Crown's money - it's the money of citizens like me.

IMV, to further his political career, Harper used my money, to pay off Arar who walked away with $10 million.

And if I understand you properly, Bambino, Harper should have negotiated a better deal.

While Harper obviously is a micromanager, and probably gave the final okay for the settlement, it's disingenuous to state it as if Harper himself gave any money or wanted to give any money to Arar. The Justice Department lawyers would have negotiated the settlement based upon their most educated guess about the costs and downside of going to court. I have little doubt if Harper had his druthers, and thought he could have gotten away with it Arar would have gotten nothing. The courts, however, rarely agree with him.

[Scotty]

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly? Because after all.,there is no such thing as "government" or "the State" or even "society" - there is only individuals. Like it or not, we live and die alone - as individuals.

Of course we can co-operate while alive - but as individuals.

And how does that mean I have to pay money to the survivors of this train wreck? If a guy's house burns down two streets over he doesn't come to me expecting money. If a guy loses his parents in a car wreck on the next block he doesn't expect me to compensate him. Lots of people died in accidents last week. The government is probably not compensating any of their relatives.

[WWWTT]

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly? Because after all.,there is no such thing as "government" or "the State" or even "society" - there is only individuals. Like it or not, we live and die alone - as individuals.

Of course we can co-operate while alive - but as individuals.

Sorry August but this is a little to deep for me.

I believe you have a strong point,but at the moment,I am not a good contender to debate more in depth.

However I can add this.

An elected official works for the crown I believe,so ultimately any actions of such an individual,the crown is responsible for

WWWTT

[guyser]

WWWTT, when you use the term "government", who do you mean exactly? Because after all.,there is no such thing as "government" or "the State" or even "society" - there is only individuals. Like it or not, we live and die alone - as individuals.

Of course we can co-operate while alive - but as individuals.

Damn you are a strange one.

You know exactly who and what is meant by the phrase gov't yet you cocoon yourself in some nether world asking 'who is XXX '

The buildings on Parliament Hill, and others around the country are filled with people who are the govt and you know it but like to play some game and be all starry eyed and oh wow man.

Give it up.

[guyser]

While Harper obviously is a micromanager, and probably gave the final okay for the settlement, it's disingenuous to state it as if Harper himself gave any money or wanted to give any money to Arar. The Justice Department lawyers would have negotiated the settlement based upon their most educated guess about the costs and downside of going to court.

All of which the posters here know and understand

I have little doubt if Harper had his druthers, and thought he could have gotten away with it Arar would have gotten nothing. The courts, however, rarely agree with him.

And for good reason.

[WWWTT]

Yes they do.

As far as you know....you have no idea if standards were not met exceeded or circumvented. Yours is just some childish attack on Harper.

The thing is, you dont know.

And how do you know that I don't know?

And why has this tragic accident not happen before? (with oil)

Lots of things going on here already,you and the conservatives just want to put up some kind of screen of "no fault" to hide behind!

Like "Oh we shouldn't be politicizing this issue"Even though political policy regulates the industry.

WWWTT

[August1991]

While Harper obviously is a micromanager, and probably gave the final okay for the settlement, it's disingenuous to state it as if Harper himself gave any money or wanted to give any money to Arar.

Scotty, you don't understand politics. Harper spends other people's money.

Harper is like a guy inviting a girl out for a night. From Harper's viewpoint, money/cost is not the issue. He has only one shot at this.

(I'm sure that Laureen has told him this many times: "You have only one chance.")

Edited July 18, 2013 by August1991

[guyser]

And how do you know that I don't know?

And why has this tragic accident not happen before? (with oil)

Lots of things going on here already,you and the conservatives just want to put up some kind of screen of "no fault" to hide behind!

Like "Oh we shouldn't be politicizing this issue"Even though political policy regulates the industry.

WWWTT

You have made it obvious you dont know. If you did, it would consist of more than shrieks of Harpers fault !

If this accident hasnt happened before, why are you so up in arms to blame Harper?

Not one single person , er rational person, has put up the no fault banner. Some irrational people have said its Harpers fault without any clue as to the whys and hows of this accident.

No its just your childish rants to blame Harper without having the slightest clue what went wrong.