Law and Order in America

The_Squid · July 2, 2013

What do you mean by militarization, though ? Also, as I posted above there are statistics on relevant information, studies and so on...

Here is a good example of militarization in my local community. I saw one of these rolling along the other day.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/03/24/bc-rcmp-rtactical-armoured-cougars.html

bush_cheney2004 · July 2, 2013

Sure. You tell me when they start holding big public funerals attended by thousands of garbagemen around the country who march in uniforms behind the casket...

In the U.S., we call those labor strikes. The garbage just piles up until a new contract is negotiated.

July 2, 2013

Such people are perfectly free to find another profession.

Actually, they are perfectly free to stay in their profession and express their opinion and lobby for what they believe is best.

Yes, that's the old refrain from those who reflexively support the police in their attempts to turn themselves into urban commandos. In point of fact, policing is just not that dangerous and never has been. Fishermen are in far more danger of death and injury. So are loggers and roofers, garbagemen, miners, farmers and truckers.

So I've heard. All the same, should I ever feel my life is endangered, I'll call a police officer rather than a fisherman, logger, roofer, garbageman, miner, farmer, or trucker.

But people don't make TV shows about those occupations. Nobody cares about heroic garbagemen dying and leaving behind poor little orphans.

See bush_cheney's response. We make shows about all sorts of things here in the U.S.

Most media outlets agree on the story, and the fact the charges were rapidly withdrawn are an indication of that story's veracity. The FOX story, which you evidently prefer, was the same as the others except that it left out details about drawn guns, cops jumping on the hood of the car, and trying to smash the car window.

Really? I "prefer" the Fox story? Gosh. I didn't think I "preferred" either.

Apparently you think that the less information the better.

Apparently you can only argue your point by claiming what *I* "apparently" think. Too bad you're not real good at determining what I think is "better," even as I was quite clear that I prefer factual, straightforward reporting.

Clearly you're a perfect FOX viewer! You don't want to hear anything disturbing, anything that might make you question your unwavering, blind obedience to the refrain about heroic police. You don't want to hear it.

Clearly you couldn't be more wrong as I've said on more than one occasion that I don't watch Fox News. Doesn't mean I like the flip side of the coin any better.

A word of advice: Try to stick to speaking for yourself - and refrain from making claims about me.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Here is a good example of militarization in my local community. I saw one of these rolling along the other day.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/03/24/bc-rcmp-rtactical-armoured-cougars.html

Ok. Buying military style vehicles and equipment ? For sure, I don't think you can argue that police forces aren't doing more of that, such as the rescue vehicle in your photo.

Scotty · July 2, 2013

What do you mean by militarization, though ? Also, as I posted above there are statistics on relevant information, studies and so on...

Perhaps you could read the cite which came with the post you're replying to...

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Perhaps you could read the cite which came with the post you're replying to...

There was no cite - there were two news articles talking about an incident. There's nothing in there indicating that this happened due to militarization of the police, or ... anything. It's just a one-off. The_Squid was gracious enough to define what 'militarization of the police' is, though, above.

Thanks, The_Squid.

The_Squid · July 2, 2013

There was no cite - there were two news articles talking about an incident. There's nothing in there indicating that this happened due to militarization of the police, or ... anything. It's just a one-off. The_Squid was gracious enough to define what 'militarization of the police' is, though, above.

Thanks, The_Squid.

And thanks for turning a tactical armoured vehicle into a "rescue" vehicle. Who are they rescuing with this?

And military "style"? No... It is a military vehicle... no need to water it down...

dre · July 2, 2013

There was no cite - there were two news articles talking about an incident. There's nothing in there indicating that this happened due to militarization of the police, or ... anything. It's just a one-off. The_Squid was gracious enough to define what 'militarization of the police' is, though, above.

Thanks, The_Squid.

I posted a snippet of an article that showed a 25% increase in police brutality, and that the biggest police union in the US says standards are being lowered and police officers are undertrained.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

And thanks for turning a tactical armoured vehicle into a "rescue" vehicle. Who are they rescuing with this?

And military "style"? No... It is a military vehicle... no need to water it down...

I have no knowledge of such military things - it says 'RESCUE' on the side, is all.

GostHacked · July 2, 2013

Ok. Buying military style vehicles and equipment ? For sure, I don't think you can argue that police forces aren't doing more of that, such as the rescue vehicle in your photo.

Not just equipment, military style tactics. Some of the hardware and many tactics that were used in Iraq/Afghanistan for crowd control are now standard equipment in US police forces.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57582859/counterinsurgency-cops-military-tactics-fight-street-crime/

In the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, our soldiers have been waging what's known as counterinsurgency. They're supposed to be both warriors and community builders, going village to village driving out insurgents while winning the hearts and minds of the population. But counterinsurgency has had mixed results - at best.

We met a Green Beret who is finding out -- in his job as a police officer -- that the strategy might actually have a better chance of working, right here at home, in the USA.

Call him and his fellow officers counterinsurgency cops! They're not fighting al Qaeda or the Taliban, but street gangs and drug dealers in one of the most crime ridden cities in New England.

http://www.businessinsider.com/local-police-military-weapons-tactics-2013-3

With an influx in federal cash from Department of Homeland Security grants, local police departments nationwide have been outfitting their officers with armored vehicles, surveillance drones, and sophisticated weaponry.

The over $34 billion in grants has given rise to a growing concern that some police officers are looking less like civil servants, and more like soldiers on the front lines in Afghanistan.

“We do know that in 2011, a half-billion dollars of surplus military equipment went to police departments,” John Chasnoff, spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union, told CBS St. Louis. “We have concerns that the lines between the two [police and military] is starting to blur.”

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

But your best effort to show that threat of terrorism justified huge new powers for government was "911 happened",

No, no. Nothing like that. Here: people want it. Satisfied ?

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

I posted a snippet of an article that showed a 25% increase in police brutality, and that the biggest police union in the US says standards are being lowered and police officers are undertrained.

Yes, you did in fact bail out the OP with facts.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Not just equipment, military style tactics. Some of the hardware and many tactics that were used in Iraq/Afghanistan for crowd control are now standard equipment in US police forces.

With everybody pitching in, we're inching towards having an argument on this thread. Ok, Military equipment and tactics. Got it. ( I hope that you guys are all around next time Scotty starts a thread, btw. )

Is there concern by those of you helping Scotty out with his thread here, that these new tactics and equipment are not needed or wanted by the police forces that get them ?

GostHacked · July 2, 2013

With everybody pitching in, we're inching towards having an argument on this thread. Ok, Military equipment and tactics. Got it. ( I hope that you guys are all around next time Scotty starts a thread, btw.

Is there concern by those of you helping Scotty out with his thread here, that these new tactics and equipment are not needed or wanted by the police forces that get them ?

Here is what Boston went through to get a couple kids. In comparison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix8u6bqKgo4

But kind of like another thread I started and asked the question -

Would you recognize what a police state looks like, even if you were in one?

bush_cheney2004 · July 2, 2013

With everybody pitching in, we're inching towards having an argument on this thread. Ok, Military equipment and tactics. Got it. ( I hope that you guys are all around next time Scotty starts a thread, btw. )

The tactics are not so new and were developed concurrently with the military. In some cases, non-lethal force was developed by police departments first. Obviously some of these young folk don't remember the 1960's.

dre · July 2, 2013

No, no. Nothing like that. Here: people want it. Satisfied ?

Not Canadians. C-30 which is pretty much exactly the scheme you described (metadata + keyword searches) was soundly rejected by Canadians when polled. Even a plurality of conservatives opposed it (47%).

We dont want it Mike! Satisfied?

dre · July 2, 2013

With everybody pitching in, we're inching towards having an argument on this thread. Ok, Military equipment and tactics. Got it. ( I hope that you guys are all around next time Scotty starts a thread, btw. )

Is there concern by those of you helping Scotty out with his thread here, that these new tactics and equipment are not needed or wanted by the police forces that get them ?

I think its not so much a question of new tactics or equipment. I think the problem, is a lack of accountability, a lack of training, and mixed messages trickling down from elected officials, and this weird obsession with security. I think the government has a certain contempt for us...

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Would you recognize what a police state looks like, even if you were in one?

I think so. Most of the accusations of police state I see are hyperbole, made by people who think 'V for Vendetta' was a documentary.

bush_cheney2004 · July 2, 2013

The U.S. is not like "Hug-a-Thug" Canada.....sorry.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Not Canadians. C-30 which is pretty much exactly the scheme you described (metadata + keyword searches) was soundly rejected by Canadians when polled.

I was speaking generally, with regards to security vs privacy concerns.

GostHacked · July 2, 2013

The U.S. is not like "Hug-a-Thug" Canada.....sorry.

True, but at least we can catch them before they get cooking.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/07/02/bc-rcmp-terrorism.html

bush_cheney2004 · July 2, 2013

I was speaking generally, with regards to security vs privacy concerns.

Already answered....a majority of Americans value security over perceived privacy (because that's all it would be anyway).

Edited July 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

GostHacked · July 2, 2013

I was speaking generally, with regards to security vs privacy concerns.

These things are starting to overlap, and trying to exclude one from another is going to be a difficult task in order to properly frame the problem in a way most will understand.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

I think its not so much a question of new tactics or equipment. I think the problem, is a lack of accountability, a lack of training, and mixed messages trickling down from elected officials, and this weird obsession with security. I think the government has a certain contempt for us...

Ok, but I don't know if that was what Scotty was talking about in the OP. And how would you determine whether the government really has contempt for us ? I liked The_Squid's definition of what Scotty meant by the OP, and maybe even GH's elaboration but government contempt for the people seems to be unrelated to the incident in the OP.

And then...

Here we are again in a thread that is effectively just a formless plaint, a generally grumble about things we don't agree on, and things we can't prove...

No wonder the government and their security apparatus beats the people every time: they're succinct and directed in their planning.

Michael Hardner · July 2, 2013

Already answered....a majority of Americans value security over perceived privacy (because that's all it would be anyway).

That's what I was thinking of when I answered the question, actually. If there were a significant backlash then we'd see policies change, because that's generally how it works. Canada's PM just aches to be loved, don't you know.