Canada's cold shoulder to U.S.

[ft.niagara]

A bit simplistic I would say. "That war to save democracy" was not likely to spread to the United States. It was a European war, and it created the United States that you know today. It was unlikely that even Britain would have fallen without the United States. Russia would have probably taken Germany by itself, or at least stalemated it. Germany would have consolitated Europe into an early EU, or Europe would have become a Russian puppet. In any event, WWII Europe was unnecessary to the US. As far as the enforcement of the Monroe Doctrine, Britain did nothing to help the US, it did what was best for Britain. It did not want French or Spanish influence in North America, I would think.

The complaint about America going to war now is that the war is totally unjustified and amounts to butchery of Iraquis who do not have the means to properly defend themselves.

The US is not butchering anyone. Saddam was asked to leave, nicely and the answer was no. The country was taken with minimum distruction. All this villification of the US for trying to innoculate the country with democracy, and villification from the 1940s for not doing enough to preserve democracy. I think there is some hypocracy there. Did Britain not try to spread democracy throughout the world?

The war was justified on two fronts, first the country harbored and supported terrorism, and it was thought that there was WMD. The fact that there was none found does not make anyone a liar. It is bogus BS, and you know it. If it were a lie, alot of people were in on it. He used WMD, and supported terrorism. Refute it. Once the country was taken, Lybia gave up its WMD, and there will be no more Saddam killing fields.

Your claim that Canada did not help when New York had a terrorist incident is offensive in the exterme. Canada gave significant help: no other country, English speaking or other did so much. That we did not swallow the Bush lies about Saddam and Al Quaeda is to Canada's credit as it stood by the ideals of civilization and not allow itself to be a satrapy of an Imperial and bellicose America.

Yes, you did send soldiers to Afghanistan. Some of your soldiers did die from friendly fire after they were mistaken for enemy because they were doing nightfire exercises with tracers in Afghanistan?????

What antagonism comes out of Canada is a revulsion against the barbaric behaviour of the America administration after the WTC. When your government blamed Canada for allowing the terrorists into the USA - all of whom actually entered the USA directly and were trained there: when your government abandoned the "War" on terror to pursue its previously articulated dream of establishing American hegemony in the Middle East: when it flouted the world to do this and attempted, first to subvert the United Nations and then to destroy it, you lost all claim to morality and to support.

Bush's question about UN relevance has merit. If it makes pronouncements, enforce them, or do not make them. When it comes to the security of the country, the UN has no veto. France has no military. Like Canada, it knows it does not need one. WWI, and WWII proved that. They do a rope a dope and someone will come to the rescue. There are terrorists in Canada. One of your own citizens wrote a book about it. I do not recall the name, but he has been interviewed on radio here.

What the motives of Britain and Australia were we may never know and I don't really care now. Their peoples have made it clear that they did not support their governments.

If there people do not support their government, why is it that they have not been voted out?

[ft.niagara]

Canada and the Olympics

This is somewhat off topic but it is from Fox which I know you guys do not get up there (because of content laws) comparing Canada with Australia in the olympics. Canada has 30 mil, and Australia 20 mil.

[ft.niagara]

America's new buddy, Pakistan condoned (as did the USA) Pakisatani scientist selling nuclear technologies and parts to the unstable nations unfriendly to the USA!!!!!!! but that is okay eh???

Prove that the US condoned the selling of nuclear technologies to unstable nations. Prove it.

[caesar]

It did not want French or Spanish influence in North America, I would think.

???????? what. I guess that you forgot that Canada is bilingual and that French is quite influential here in North America and that Mexico is very influenced by Spanish???

[caesar]

The war was justified on two fronts, first the country harbored and supported terrorism, and it was thought that there was WMD. The fact that there was none found does not make anyone a liar.

Who thought????? The information that the USA/Britain used was proven to be fraudulent, forgeries, old and plagiarized and plain irrelevant BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. It was NOT a war. A war takes two sides.

If they were not lying they were very incompetent. What happened to justice Innocent until proven guilty. There were no ties between Saddam/Iraq and the terrorists that attacked the world trade center.

[caesar]

Prove that the US condoned the selling of nuclear technologies to unstable nations. Prove it.

Did they even make a little fuss after the Prime Minister of Pakistan pardoned the scientists and let them keep their ill gotten gains. In fact, shortly after, they made Pakistan a preferred ally; allowed to purchase new weaponry from the USA.

[ft.niagara]

Did they even make a little fuss after the Prime Minister of Pakistan pardoned the scientists and let them keep their ill gotten gains. In fact, shortly after, they made Pakistan a preferred ally; allowed to purchase new weaponry from the USA.

This is your proof. LOL

[ft.niagara]

???????? what. I guess that you forgot that Canada is bilingual and that French is quite influential here in North America and that Mexico is very influenced by Spanish???

I was talking about the country not the language when I was talking about influence in North America.

Hummmm Hummmm

[ft.niagara]

If they were not lying they were very incompetent. What happened to justice Innocent until proven guilty. There were no ties between Saddam/Iraq and the terrorists that attacked the world trade center.

Terrorists were found resident in his country. He supported Palestinian suicide bombers by giving bomber families money for job well done. He used the gas on the Kurds.

This is probably not useful, because you hate America, and you just love crafting your arguements to bash her. Go have fun. What did you think of the olympics article? It might give you a taste of your own medicine.

[Guest eureka]

I have not even read the Olympics article. All that happened in the Olympics is quite easily explained by anyone with an interest in sport rather than bragging rights.

Tell me what terrorists were found in Iraq - resident, as you call it. The terrorists at the WTC were resident in the USA not Iraq. Then, what has it to do with the USA if Saddam gave money to Palestinians. The USA gave money to terrorists the world over including the IRA to attack its best ally. The US also gives pots of money and weapons to Israel to use on Palestinian civilians.

You obviously don't know much about the Monroe doctrine. It was proclaimed in 1823 when the USA could not have defended itself against any major European power. Of course it was in Britain's interest to enforce it. They could not have allowed any other power to defeat the US. It was in American interest to participate in WWI and II also. The possible realignment of powers in a Fascist dominated world would have made America the next target and, it could not have defeated them.

Those wars were not European wars unles you think that Africa, China, India, the Phillipines, Indonesia and the Near East are in Europe. It was a war that threatened America as much as any nation.

"Saddam was asked to leave nicely." That is Bushean in its arrogance. Who is George Bush to ask the head of another country to leave because he is in the way of American oil interests and did not like Georgie's daddy. Who on earth do you think you are? The whole world, now, is asking George nicely to leave and to leave the world to restore peace. Should we invade America and affect regime change the Bush way?

France has no military, you think. France has the nuclear capacity to destroy the USA or Russia as does Britain. It is a most unlikely turn but it should give the country that thinks it is the world's sole superpower pause to think about its dreams of world hegemony.

The US is not trying to "innoculate" Iraq and bring it democracy. It is trying to impose what is to that country an alien system in its own strategic and economic interest. And no, Britain did not try to spread democracy. It tried to extend its commercial influence and, in the course of that, planted the seeds of democracy in many places. Some of the seeds germinated.

I do not have to refute your claim that Iraq harboured and supported terrorism. It is palpable nonsense as is your claim that it used WMD. The limited weaponry that it had at its disposal in the Gulf War hardly constituted a threat to any power. You try to show where these terrorists were. They have not been found and are, it seems, as much a myth as the WMD that America mythologized.

Bush's question about UN relevance does indeed have relevance. I will grant you that. But why does it have relevance? It has relevance because Bush undermined the UN and, in the hubris for which he is now paying, decided that he was bigger than the world. Just like Napoleon and Hitler or Alexander the Great. Megalomaniacs all who payed for their sins. The difference between those men and Bush is that they had the talents and abilities to make their delusions come partly true. But, like Bush, they all got too big for their boots. In Bush's case, perhaps that should be for his hat since he clearly has a case of swelled head.

The people in those democracies, Britain and Australia, do support their governments. They do not support the attack on Iraq. They may very well be voted out at the next elections but, they will have to face all issues: they will not have to choose between a swaggering, strutting oath and another who cannot get the issues articulated. They will not be frightened into voting for an anti-liberal oligarchy which has spent the last three years instilling fear into the population.

Remember Goebells! He said that if you made the people fearful enough, you could make them do anything. That is the Bush administration.

People will even swallow what they know to be political lies if they think the liars will protect them from the bogey men.

[caesar]

Grow up Niagra. Think before you speak. You have little understanding of common sense. It is people like you that let tyrants like Bush bring mayhem to the world. Saddam was a mouthy jerk but it is Bush who is dangerous to world peace.

[ft.niagara]

Grow up Niagra. Think before you speak. You have little understanding of common sense. It is people like you that let tyrants like Bush bring mayhem to the world. Saddam was a mouthy jerk but it is Bush who is dangerous to world peace.

Is that what your arguement boils down to, you are smarter and more mature than I am? Go dislike Bush, I don't give a crap, but he is no tyrant, and he is not dangerous to world peace. World peace has been broken, and he was not the one to break it.

[ft.niagara]

I have not even read the Olympics article. All that happened in the Olympics is quite easily explained by anyone with an interest in sport rather than bragging rights.

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to the other guy, but you two seem to be the two biggest USA bashers here. I suggest you read the article because it deals with more than bragging rights, it basicly calls Canada a nation of pussies.

[August1991]

I read the article, and I thought it was absolutely silly. The measure of a country is not how many gold medals it wins. If American journalists want to claim theirs is a great country because Americans win lots of medals, fine. But the argument strikes me as adolescent.

I'm rather pro-American, and even pro-Bush. But this journalist knows little about Canadians.

[caesar]

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to the other guy, but you two seem to be the two biggest USA bashers here. I suggest you read the article because it deals with more than bragging rights, it basicly calls Canada a nation of pussies.

Sticks and stones can break my bones....

better that than a bunch of hot dog bullies. America has nothing to be proud of in its war record with all the friendly fire incidents. There are things much more important than summer sports; there is hockey. Too rough for you sissy Americans; so I hear. hehe

[ft.niagara]

Sticks and stones can break my bones....

There are things much more important than summer sports; there is hockey. Too rough for you sissy Americans; so I hear. hehe

Go break a stick over your head. It shouldn't be hard, it is as dense as stone anyway.

[August1991]

Sticks and stones can break my bones....

There are things much more important than summer sports; there is hockey. Too rough for you sissy Americans; so I hear. hehe

Go break a stick over your head. It shouldn't be hard, it is as dense as stone anyway.

Now kids, I don't want to hear anymore otherwise the TV is going off and you're all going to your rooms.

[caesar]

You, my dear are the one with blinders on. I prefer our civil Canadian attitude over the American way of torturing helpless prisoners. I remember how Bush whined and cried when picture of Americans were shown; he wanted his Geneva convention rights then. You get back what you hand out. Treat others fairly; if you want to be treated with respect.

[Argus]

This is certainly true. However, I have noticed a somewhat disturbing lack of consistency in many of those who so adamantly criticise Israel. That is that they are quick to scream and howl when Israel does something, but mute when the Palestinians or Arabs - or anyone else in the world except the Americans - do the same or worse. Forgive me for wondering, then, at just what their motivation is for their constant criticism of Israel.

This is a common canard and certainly meaningless without some actual evidence.

And what evidence would you like? We get almost daily reports from Palestine. When was the last time you heard one from Chechnia? When was the last time you heard one from China? I'd say about half our foreign news for the last several years has come from Israel. Nobody seems to care very much about the brutality being inflicted on other peoples.

No one on the left with an ounce of integrity would defend, for example, suicide bombings, but would acknowledge that such acts are for the most part symptomatic of the larger issue of the Occupation.

Oh richly ironic. You say no one would defend them, then go on to attempt to excuse them. Yet none of you ever make excuses for a tiny state of Jews surrounded by a massive sea of vicious, hostile Arabs who have attacked them again and again.

Israel is nowhere _near_ the worst violator of human rights. Its treatment of rebelious Palestinians is, to be honest, far gentler than they'd get at the hands of any Arab government. And there are many peoples around the world far worse off than the Palestinians, at the hands of far more brutal and murderous regimes. That being the inarguable reality, one has to wonder at the massive amount of venom and diatribes directed at Israel from the western left.

First, I've always found the "well our brutal human rights violations aren't as brutal as others'" to be a rather shoddy defense.

Ah, but it's not a defence. My point here is not to defend Israel but to point out the hypocrisy of people who will pass over mass slaughter and torture to jump up and down in horor and point at comparatively minor abuses instead.

Israel may not be the worst, but it's pretty bad, especially for a nation that is so often touted as "the only democracy in the Middle East".

Israel wouldn't even get into the top fifty abusers of human rights if the list was put up fairly. People seem to forget that unlike most other states most of Israel's violence is provoked by Palestinian violence. Where are the mass marches against India for its brutal repression of seperatists in Kashmir and Punjab? Where are the screams of outrage over the repression of Muslims in China? Why don't we see daily videos from Chechnia, showing the murder and brutality being inflicted by the Russians?

Israel is not "pretty bad", it's actually pretty damned good compared to most of the members of the United Nations.

If Israel is indeed a "progressive democracy", would it not be appropriate to judge it by the standards of other progressive western-style democracies instead of by those of oppressive totalitarian regimes?

No. Because western democracies are fat, happy and safe. And so their people have no concept of what it is like to be vastly outnumbered and surrounded by religious fanatics who want them dead. How many times in the last ffity years has Canada been attacked and had to defend itself? How often do bombs blow up in our cities, in our buses, in our schools? How often do people sneak across our borders to kill anyone they can find? Experience that kind of life from the day you're born and see how friendly you feel towards those who surround and hate you. You drop another people into the same place, be it the English, Irish, French or us and see how long it will take for them to get hard, and how gentle they'll start treating those who attack them daily.

The other angle is that the argument "why Israel?" can just as easily be construed as an attempt to shield Israeli actions from scrutiny, a diversion. The flip side to this is "Why not Israel?"

Why not? Gee. Let's see. As an example, let's say we have a half dozen guys named Paul Bernardo who are wandering around murdering and raping girls, and then one guy who sexually harrasses women by occasionally commenting on the size of their breasts. Now, you believe there's nothing wrong with pretty much ignoring the rapist murderers to focus 90% of our attention on the guy who is rude, right? I mean, he IS rude, after all, and there's no excuse for his sexual harrassment. So why not focus all our attention on him? Right?

Finally, most leftists harbour no love for repressive regimes, period.

Oh really? How old are you? Because I go back long enough to remember when "most leftists" were campaigning daily against human rights violations throughout the world - except in Communist countries, where they excused it, justified it, or claimed it was all made up or "CIA propaganda". So don't give me any crap about how the left doesn't tolerate repressive regimes.

So why the left's fixation on condeming and demonizing Israel? Perhaps its just coincidence that Israel is the only Jewish state?

It should be noted that "the right" has given the examples you mentioned equally short shrift. Indeed, it is the political establishment, and not the left, that supports and does business with Russia, China, Syria, Egypt, Pakistan etc etc etc.

Ah, but you're supposed to be better than the right, remember? The "right" are supposed to be hard-hearted capitalists who only care for making a buck. You're the pure, noble, caring ideology. Isn't that the way it goes?

But if the right shows no great inclinationi to criticise China it also shows no great need to attack Israel. The Left, on the other hand, is fixated on Israel. So again the question is? Why? And the answer, certainly for a lot of them is "Jews".

[Argus]

Mr. Beichman obviously hates Canada and is willing to spout the most egregious propaganda against

Beichman's opinion column was, taken in its entireity, garbage, I'll grant you that.

As an American, this is all about perspective, and Mr. Beichman's column was not garbage, you seem to have agreed with most every point

No, I did not agree with every point. Most of his points, most of what he used as the 'factual' basis of his column, were either taken well out of context, exaggerated or simply wrong.

What seems to have escaped him is the degree to which soft, comfortable, lazy-minded anti-militarism has gripped most of Liberal Canada. People who have never known danger, never known a threat, and can't imagine one have come to reflexively look down on all things military, to think themselves smugly superior. Canada has no real presence in the world, and no borders with anyone who wishes us harm. Thus we have never really needed much of a military. And for some people, this has come to be taken for granted as the normal state of affairs in the world. Americans, with their aggressive policies in defence of their worldwide interests are looked down on. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that outlook doesn't have a lot to do with the dislike of Israel too. All things military are seen as brutal, and make such people uncomfortable. The attitude is that force is always wrong, and that all things can be worked out through peaceful discussions. It's a childish attitude born of ignorance, but unfortunately, the vast majority of Canadians ARE extremely ignorant about what the world is like. They're naive and foolish and don't understand the depths of violence and brutality which exist throughout most of the world's cultures. No one attacks us because, why "We're so nice!". Of course, that's not true. No one generally attacks us, at least on purpose, because we're so utterly unimportant. But people don't like to think about that.

[Argus]

your government speaks, over the years it has been antiamerican in my view. Perhaps the French influence?

Sorry buddy but look at your own government and its actions. Why is America the most hated nation now. They used to be very much respected.

Ignorance, jealousy, religious fanaticism, mostly. You talk of the past, but a lot of organizations and nations used to be respected. The UN, for one. UN soldiers could go anywhere and rarely ever be attacked. Now a blue helmet is just a target. It's a much harsher world, and in some ways, more savage. Ignorance is still massive throughout the world, and violence and brutality are everyday occurances. There isn't the respect for national and international institutions there once was. The US is hated? Yeah, by the same people who would give their left arm to go and live there and be an American.

And only an idiot would want the most powerful and sophisticated nation on Earth to obey the dicates of the United Nations when that group is largely made up of brutal thugs and murderers barely a generation (if that) out of the jungles.

[ft.niagara]

But if the right shows no great inclinationi to criticise China it also shows no great need to attack Israel. The Left, on the other hand, is fixated on Israel. So again the question is? Why? And the answer, certainly for a lot of them is "Jews"

The left are just closet antisemite. You can not call them that because they are liberal, and liberal is supposed to be by definition projewish. Actually, they are schizophrenic, they are this one day, and that the next.

[Argus]

Over the years, you can go right back to "Reciprocity" times, Governments in Canada have been too pro-American when they speak. They have rarely represented te opinions of the people in this.

It probably will distress you to hear this; but overall, the interests of the US and that of Canada are virtually identical. So if we support the U.S. on the world stage it is not so much being "pro american" but simply doing what is in our own best interests. Most Canadians know little or nothing about the world at large, however, the produce of a distinctly inferior education system which lavishes massive amounts of money on teachers and educational experts and turns out students who can neither read, nor write, nor count, and who know nothing about the world or its history.

There seems to be glimmer of hope that this is changing. Canadians are finally finding themselves to be different and not merely second-class Americans. Government may be catching up with the people here.

Uhm, no, if anything is changing it is that government is more willing to pander to the ignorance of fat, comfortable, ignorant Canadians fed a daily gruel of CBC inspired, ego-stroking nonsense about our place in the world. If you are such a person you probably don't realize our health care system is well behind most of the world, probably think we're one of the world's great peacekeepers, and probably have no idea how much richer most of the US (excluding inner city slums) is than Canada. And you certainly won't find out about it by watching the CBC.

[caesar]

Canadians know little or nothing about the world at large, however, the produce of a distinctly inferior education system which lavishes massive amounts of money on teachers and educational experts and turns out students who can neither read, nor write, nor count, and who know nothing about the world or its history.

From what I have seen; this more aptly applies to the USA. Everytime I watch any thing on tv; they cannot even use proper grammar. They do not know anything about their nearest neighbout Canada, either

Where's all this lavish money going to teachers. I am sure most would like to see it.

[ft.niagara]

You, my dear are the one with blinders on.  I prefer our civil Canadian attitude over the American way of torturing helpless prisoners.

Actually, I kind of enjoyed the pictures. Those fellows were there because they were bad. They were not there because they were in the Iraq military, but because they were bad guys. Maybe a bomber or two. I really liked the naked group hug. They needed a little bonding time. Is that the torturing you refer to?

Your civil Canadian attitude is certainly understandable. Canadians are just so "nice". (See Post by Argus above)