Barbaric attack in the U.K.

[G Huxley]

If you count that number as over the last 50 years it would be more than accurate.

[DogOnPorch]

If you count that number as over the last 50 years it would be more than accurate.

WW2 will do that.

[jbg]

No when you target a funeral its no longer collateral damage. Its targeting innocents, just like terrorists.

Murder is murder. One of these days you'll have an epiphany and realize it too. I just hope when you do that you can deal with it without causing more harm to yourself and others.

In your alternative reality, what the West does is always wrong and what the others do is always right. We eventually have to make some value judgments; do we consider Western civilization, of which we are part, to have value, or not?

[G Huxley]

DogonPorch: World War 2 was more than 50 years ago.

In your alternative reality, what the West does is always wrong and what the others do is always right. We eventually have to make some value judgments; do we consider Western civilization, of which we are part, to have value, or not?

The only alternative reality is the one you invented for me. The opinions you attribute to me are not mine. They are your mistaken impression of mine.

[DogOnPorch]

DogonPorch: World War 2 was more than 50 years ago.

The only alternative reality is the one you invented for me. The opinions you attribute to me are not mine. They are your mistaken impression of mine.

Then your information is exaggerated.

[G Huxley]

No it certainly isn't. Add up the #s from the Indo-China wars. The carpet bombing of Cambodia alone would fit those numbers.

[DogOnPorch]

Plenty of invading NVA, as well as local communists like the Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge were killed during the bombing of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I imagine some civilians as well. But, with some folks, Indochina is just about how horrible America was for doing what it did...not for what North Viet-Nam did. Or anyone else for that matter. Did you know that over 75% of all strike sorties in South Viet-Nam were performed by the SVN air force? That infamous photo of the young girl with her clothes burnt away was an all Vietnamese affair...

Again...your numbers are exaggerations.

[G Huxley]

The numbers killed in the Indo-China wars are in the hundreds of thousands. There are no exaggerations. And you can guarantee the napalm used on the little girl was from Dow Chemical.

Pol Pot came into power after the US overthrew the king of Cambodia in a coup detat. So you can chalk that one up for good old US intervention as well.

[Traveller]

Pol Pot came into power after the US overthrew the king of Cambodia in a coup detat. So you can chalk that one up for good old US intervention as well.

Actually, Pol Pot came to power after the Americans ceased supporting the Lon Nol government in the post-Watergate environment. You're correct that the US did help to oust the legitimate government of Prince Sihanouk. Pot's actual support (both logistical and actual combat forces) came from the North Vietnames and the Viet Cong. The US failure was to continue to support the government they put in power. Without US support, Nol was out; Pot was in; and 2,000,.000 Cambodieans would die as a result.

[G Huxley]

Yes, and none of that would have happened had the US not overthrown Prince Sihanouk. Incidentally it was the North Vietnamese who ended up taking out Pol Pot, while the US was still defending the Khmer Rouge's UN seat years after.

[DogOnPorch]

The numbers killed in the Indo-China wars are in the hundreds of thousands. There are no exaggerations. And you can guarantee the napalm used on the little girl was from Dow Chemical.

Pol Pot came into power after the US overthrew the king of Cambodia in a coup detat. So you can chalk that one up for good old US intervention as well.

I'd say millions died in the Indochina wars. I think that it's the soft racism of low expectations that blames the US and forgives all other players in the conflict. Nobody forced poor ol' Pol Pot to murder millions. That was his doing.

Edited June 15, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[G Huxley]

But it fully highlights my point. The US meddling in international affairs of other countries through military and covert intervention often leads to destabilization of whole regions and nations which has often led them into falling into a downward spiral of barbarity and mass murder and genocide.

If that's the consequence of arrogantly trying to determine the future of other countries then its simply bad policy.

[DogOnPorch]

But it fully highlights my point. The US meddling in international affairs of other countries through military and covert intervention often leads to destabilization of whole regions and nations which has often led them into falling into a downward spiral of barbarity and mass murder and genocide.

If that's the consequence of arrogantly trying to determine the future of other countries then its simply bad policy.

But, it was North Viet-Nam's 'meddling' that started the whole affair in the South. Funny how we forget that they and not the Americans were the invaders.

[jbg]

I'd say millions died in the Indochina wars. I think that it's the soft racism of low expectations that blames the US and forgives all other players in the conflict. Nobody forced poor ol' Pol Pot to murder millions. That was his doing.

Nah. Israel was behind Pol Pot's atrocities. Get more blood for the Pesach Matzohs </sarcasm>.

[G Huxley]

But, it was North Viet-Nam's 'meddling' that started the whole affair in the South. Funny how we forget that they and not the Americans were the invaders.

Who divided Vietnam? Europeans. The Vietnamese had fought the French out then America thought it was going to take over the job of controlling Vietnam.

Dumb.

[DogOnPorch]

Who divided Vietnam? Europeans. The Vietnamese had fought the French out then America thought it was going to take over the job of controlling Vietnam.

Dumb.

What is called Indochina is a mix of dozens of different folks. The Viet and the Annam are just two...ask a Hmong. You might have one as a neighbour post-1975.

[DogOnPorch]

Nah. Israel was behind Pol Pot's atrocities. Get more blood for the Pesach Matzohs </sarcasm>.

Heh...chuckle away. There are posters over at National Post that think exactly like that. Liberal use of the words 'Rothschild' and 'Zionist' are usually a clue...lol.

Edited June 15, 2013 by DogOnPorch

[G Huxley]

What is called Indochina is a mix of dozens of different folks. The Viet and the Annam are just two...ask a Hmong. You might have one as a neighbour post-1975.

Yes, that is true. At the end of the day though the millions dead in the conflict, the result of the consequences of western imperialism in indo-china rules out any higher ground for the west and especially the US 'escalation' and spread of the conflict to the levels which saw those numbers killed.

Edited June 15, 2013 by G Huxley

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, that is true. At the end of the day though the millions dead in the conflict, the result of the consequences of western imperialism in indo-china rules out any higher ground for the west and especially the US 'escalation' and spread of the conflict to the levels which saw those numbers killed.

Much of the real slaughter occurred during the so-called Viet-Namization of the war. ARVN was a pretty corrupt group save for the Air Force and Ranger outfits. Most ARVN division commanders were either shooting (at times...literally) for President's or Prime Minister's chair or on the take from the VC. It must have been exasperating for the remaining Americans to watch the follies. The NVA took full advantage of the situation and launched their infamous Year of the Rat offensive that nearly ended the war in 1972 if it wasn't for the massive use of airpower by the Allies.

[Traveller]

Yes, and none of that would have happened had the US not overthrown Prince Sihanouk. Incidentally it was the North Vietnamese who ended up taking out Pol Pot, while the US was still defending the Khmer Rouge's UN seat years after.

Oh come now - have some faith in the perfidy of man. No American involvement woudl simply have meant Pol Pot would have overthrown the SHanouk regime instead of the Nol regime...the coup against Shanouk simply delayed the inevitable.

[G Huxley]

DogOnPorch say the NVA won sooner, then about 2 decades of the Vietnam war could have been avoided and hundreds of thousands saved. Instead there was 2 unneccessary decades of brutal fighting and carpet bombing that also destabilized and brought in surrounding countries into the slaughter.

Oh come now - have some faith in the perfidy of man. No American involvement woudl simply have meant Pol Pot would have overthrown the SHanouk regime instead of the Nol regime...the coup against Shanouk simply delayed the inevitable.

Not at all. Sihanouk brought the Khmer Rouge in to retake Cambodia from the Americans. However then they turned on Sihanouk and took power for themselves.

Edited June 16, 2013 by G Huxley

[DogOnPorch]

DogOnPorch say (sic) Easter Offensive 3 years before total fall (of) South Viet-Nam.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh come now - have some faith in the perfidy of man. No American involvement woudl simply have meant Pol Pot would have overthrown the SHanouk regime instead of the Nol regime...the coup against Shanouk simply delayed the inevitable.

Besides...it would have interrupted the time/space continuum. We might not have ever had this great scene etched into our minds...

[DogOnPorch]

Some day this war is gonna end...

[G Huxley]

heh his name is Kilgore? Imo a reference to Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5