PMO paid for Duffy's fraud

[Canuckistani]

Justin or his close staffer paid Harb's debt? That's news to me. Doesn't Mr. Duffy have any rich friends that are not so closely related to the PM's office? This doesn't pass the smell test. You really think Harper and his chief of staff didn't discuss this situation? You think Wright just forgot to say "oh, by the way, I gave Duffy 90k, so we're good?"

[PIK]

I think it more to do that wright is stinking rich, which the left hates, unless it is them with the big bank account.

[Spiderfish]

Now there's an easy out. Most things are speculation - this isn't going to court to be proved. Doesn't mean people don't have a head on their shoulders and know what's what.

As with any accusation of illegal or unethical activity, it's not what you know or what you think you know, it's what you can prove. If Duffy is found to be in violation of conflict of interest rules, or bribery, there will have to be firm evidence to back it up, whether it's an internal investigation or a legal action. Bringing forth such allegations with no evidence only exposes the accuser to risk of defamation and libel charges.

[Guest Derek L]

As with any accusation of illegal or unethical activity, it's not what you know or what you think you know, it's what you can prove. If Duffy is found to be in violation of conflict of interest rules, or bribery, there will have to be firm evidence to back it up, whether it's an internal investigation or a legal action. Bringing forth such allegations with no evidence only exposes the accuser to risk of defamation and libel charges.

Exactly.........And as demonstrated by Brian Burke:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/05/10/brian-burke-the-law-and-how-not-to-grovel/

[Spiderfish]

Duffy better start finding some better sense and judgement, this whole thing has been created from bad judgement on his part. It seems the more he tries to put it to rest, the more he ends up stepping in it. I'm not sure what the legal implications of taking this money from Nigel is, but optically it just looks bad. He would have been better off to agree to pay the money back over time if he could not clear it up on his own all at once.

It seems that one of the questions is that's the cause of some speculation is whether this was a "gift" or a "loan". It seems to be an important part of the equation to determine if there was a conflict ot interest or breach of ethical behaviour. If it was determined by Duffy and his legal council that recieveing this money would be a viable option, there should have been very clear terms written out as to agreement to repay, just to cover his butt.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Canuckistani]

Duffy better start finding some better sense and judgement, this whole thing has been created from bad judgement on his part. It seems the more he tries to put it to rest, the more he ends up stepping in it. I'm not sure what the legal implications of taking this money from Nigel is, but optically it just looks bad. He would have been better off to agree to pay the money back over time if he could not clear it up on his own all at once.

At the very least, it seems that one of the questions is that's the cause of some speculation is whether this was a "gift" or a "loan". It seems to be an important part of the equation to determine if there was a conflict ot interest or breach of ethical behaviour. If it was determined by Duffy and his legal council that recieveing this money would be a viable option, there should have been very clear terms written out as to agreement to repay, just to cover his butt.

You're contradicting your last post to me here. This is about politics, not the law. Duffy can probably wriggle out of not reporting the gift as required. But the whole deal doesn't pass the smell test. And to say Harper didn't know about it is just playing dumb.

[Canuckistani]

And more lying:

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office revealed that Harper's chief of staff, Nigel Wright, wrote a personal cheque to cover Duffy's repayment. Duffy, however, told CTV News on Tuesday night that Wright had nothing to do with his repayment.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/duffy-campaign-invoice-contradicts-expense-claim-153010535.html

If there's nothing wrong with it, why did he deny it?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Canuckistani

[Spiderfish]

You're contradicting your last post to me here. This is about politics, not the law. Duffy can probably wriggle out of not reporting the gift as required. But the whole deal doesn't pass the smell test. And to say Harper didn't know about it is just playing dumb.

Where is the contradiction? Legally, he may be within his right to accept this money to repay his debt, I don't know. But this whole thing has come about from a lack of sound judgement. Just because something is legal, does not mean it's implication will not be damaging to his reputation. I don't agree with his decision to accept this money to repay his debt because he is trying to salvage his reputation by correcting a wrong, in the process he has put his ethical reputation into question even further. This shows a fundamental lack of good judgement. It will take evidence, however to make an allegation of bribery stick to him.

[Canuckistani]

Exactly. So we're in agreement. As I ask above, if it's OK, why does he deny it Tuesday and Wednesday it comes out he did? I doubt there is much here that will rise to the level of criminality, lots of weasel room, but it still stinks. And I think that Harper knew about it and likely was part of orchestrating it. Since the behavior isn't likely criminal, I don't see how this could be deemed slander.

[guyser]

Based on what? Do you think the Prime Minister has equal powers as that of Superman and Santa Claus?

Well dont go full stupid on me here. You are too smart to get away with this deflection

Based on what ?

The PMO's office has someone pay the bill. And someone saying when you pay the bill (and we"ll give you the cash) the Govt will go easy on you.

So you think there is a rogue element to the PMO?

Yeesh....didnt take you for a sycophant

[Spiderfish]

Exactly. So we're in agreement. As I ask above, if it's OK, why does he deny it Tuesday and Wednesday it comes out he did? I doubt there is much here that will rise to the level of criminality, lots of weasel room, but it still stinks. And I think that Harper knew about it and likely was part of orchestrating it. Since the behavior isn't likely criminal, I don't see how this could be deemed slander.

I agree that the optics are not good, but I will leave the doubting, what-if's, likely's and other broad speculation up to you.

[PIK]

Maybe if the media was not on a constant witch hunt people would talk to them more.

[Guest Derek L]

Well dont go full stupid on me here. You are too smart to get away with this deflection

Based on what ?

The PMO's office has someone pay the bill. And someone saying when you pay the bill (and we"ll give you the cash) the Govt will go easy on you.

So you think there is a rogue element to the PMO?

Yeesh....didnt take you for a sycophant

But there you’re speculating, and perhaps even inferring a conspiracy within the PMO……….Clearly there is no malfeasances with one friend giving some cash to another friend to pay for a (big) mistake……….All the rest is speculation………..

As to being a sycophant, there to I disagree. Though I fully admit to being a partisan Conservative, I also took the same stance (in the related thread on this very website two years ago) in regards to the late Mr Layton on the revelations of his visit to the massage parlour and all the disparaging remarks made against his reputation and character that ensued…………I think one would hardly call me a champion of the NDP........

[guyser]

But there you’re speculating, and perhaps even inferring a conspiracy within the PMO……….Clearly there is no malfeasances with one friend giving some cash to another friend to pay for a (big) mistake……….All the rest is speculation………..

There is no speculating here.

The PM's right hand man, ups and off 's a debt of $90G's for a Senator, and also tells him (Duffy) that this govt will go easy on him.

And then a couple of days later he tells Stephen over coffee....oh yeah, I paid Duffy's debt.

"Oh really, thats nice of you"

"yea , I know, I also told him that your govt will make nice and go easy on him".

"Ok sure , hey thanks"

As if....

[Spiderfish]

This is about politics, not the law. Duffy can probably wriggle out of not reporting the gift as required. But the whole deal doesn't pass the smell test. And to say Harper didn't know about it is just playing dumb.

Speculation that Harper knew something about this has nothing to do with Duffy's poor decision to accept it. Accusations of bribery and breach of conflict of interest standards are more than political, and carries far more than just political consequences. These are serious allegations and if formally brought forth, better have something to back them up.

Duffy hs successfully nuked his own reputation. At this point, it doesn't seem likely that the individuals bringing these allegations forward are just doing so to dance on the ashes of his remaining ethical credibility. If they are, it really doesn't say much for their own credibility and behaviour.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Guest Derek L]

There is no speculating here.

The PM's right hand man, ups and off 's a debt of $90G's for a Senator, and also tells him (Duffy) that this govt will go easy on him.

And then a couple of days later he tells Stephen over coffee....oh yeah, I paid Duffy's debt.

"Oh really, thats nice of you"

"yea , I know, I also told him that your govt will make nice and go easy on him".

"Ok sure , hey thanks"

As if....

Or………(at the very least) what does Plausible Deniability and Insulation mean to you? World leaders learned all sorts of lessons from Nixon.....I would say that the Prime Minister learning details after the fact over coffee is not only plausible but probable....

[The_Squid]

What does it say about the PMO that they told him not to cooperate with the audit?

What does it say about the PMO that the gov't will "go easy" on him?

It says that despite the fraud perpetuated by Duffy, they wanted him in caucus as part of the Harper gov't. But the secret deal is out... they were caught, if not supporting Duffy's conduct, at the very least aiding and abetting it.

[Guest Derek L]

Speculation that Harper knew something about this has nothing to do with Duffy's poor decision to accept it. Accusations of bribery and breach of conflict of interest standards are more than political, and carries far more than just political consequences. These are serious allegations and if formally brought forth, better have something to back them up.

You bet, just ask him:

Edited May 16, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

What does it say about the PMO that they told him not to cooperate with the audit?

What does it say about the PMO that the gov't will "go easy" on him?

It says that despite the fraud perpetuated by Duffy, they wanted him in caucus as part of the Harper gov't. But the secret deal is out... they were caught, if not supporting Duffy's conduct, at the very least aiding and abetting it.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Derek L

[The_Squid]

rebut with a stupid video? How mature...

In Duffy's own emails he says the PMO told him not to cooperate with the audit...

In Duffy's own emails he says the gov't will let him off easy...

Tell me how this is a conspiracy when it is taken straight from emails from Duffy... in your own words... no silly videos or pictures... put some actual thought into it...

Edited May 16, 2013 by The_Squid

[Guest Derek L]

rebut with a stupid video? How mature...

In Duffy's own emails he says the PMO told him not to cooperate with the audit...

In Duffy's own emails he says the gov't will let him off easy...

Tell me how this is a conspiracy when it is taken straight from emails from Duffy... in your own words... no silly videos or pictures... put some actual thought into it...

Duffy also apparently in an email to CTV on Tuesday said he garnered the funds to pay-back his expenses from the Royal Bank……….Maybe Senator Duffy is suffering memory issues……..I dunno…..I’ll leave the speculation to you, the media and the NDP……….

Notice how the Liberal Party has remained silent on the entire issue? Almost like they know that wild speculation could lead them into:

[Hudson Jones]

Derek is trying. He's trying hard.

When people try to excuse illegal actions and wrongdoings just for the sake of showing unconditional support for a team they've chosen, they damage their own credibility.

[Guest Derek L]

Derek is trying. He's trying hard.

When people try to excuse illegal actions and wrongdoings just for the sake of showing unconditional support for a team they've chosen, they damage their own credibility.

What illegal actions am I trying to “excuse”? I’ve stated numerous times in this thread that the three Senators should pay back the funds and then resign.

[The_Squid]

Derek is trying. He's trying hard.

When people try to excuse illegal actions and wrongdoings just for the sake of showing unconditional support for a team they've chosen, they damage their own credibility.

Agreed. It is just partisan hackery.

[silver72]

The saying ,"if you are going to lie, you have remember the lies you told before" Now Duffy is saying that Wright never gave him any money that the got it from his bank the Royal. he said he wrote a personal cheque for it. Since there's so many different reasons coming out of Duffy and the PMO , let send in the RCMP and really get to the bottom, who's right and who's wrong then can all 3 senators! http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/nigel-wright-wrote-personal-cheque-for-90k-to-repay-mike-duffy-s-expenses-1.1282538