We need to talk more about education.

[Big Blue Machine]

We need to pay more attention to education. Health care has been the monster of all provincial government costs, usually at least a third or in Ontario's case 45%. Its good to be healthy. but health won't get you into your job in the future and post-secondary education.

I personally think we should test teachers. Please don't call me a moron or stupid or an idiot. Its my opinion. I think we should work with the teachers, and at the last resort, ban them from striking. They are an essential service to the public. There are also many downfalls in the system that need to be adressed.

I have a stories to tell about teachers. Last year, I was in grade 10. I wa taking university math. My teacher is awful. She only showed us one way to do it, that was her way. If we didn't understand her way, she wouldn't go into another ways to do to a problem. I got an 80% at the end of the course, thanks in part to a tutor.

Another story is one that I heard from a person. She had been a nurse all her life, and decided she wanted to be a teacher. This person was usually doing 12 hours shift, and when she got into teaching, she told me about what some teachers do. One teacher only marks the first two sentences in an essay. If the sentences are good, good mark, and if they are bad, bad mark.

We need to get these 'teachers' out of teaching. But the union is so powerful that we can't do that.

What do you people think?

[Slavik44]

We need to pay more attention to education. Health care has been the monster of all provincial government costs, usually at least a third or in Ontario's case 45%. Its good to be healthy. but health won't get you into your job in the future and post-secondary education.

I personally think we should test teachers. Please don't call me a moron or stupid or an idiot. Its my opinion. I think we should work with the teachers, and at the last resort, ban them from striking. They are an essential service to the public. There are also many downfalls in the system that need to be adressed.

I have a stories to tell about teachers. Last year, I was in grade 10. I wa taking university math. My teacher is awful. She only showed us one way to do it, that was her way. If we didn't understand her way, she wouldn't go into another ways to do to a problem. I got an 80% at the end of the course, thanks in part to a tutor.

Another story is one that I heard from a person. She had been a nurse all her life, and decided she wanted to be a teacher. This person was usually doing 12 hours shift, and when she got into teaching, she told me about what some teachers do. One teacher only marks the first two sentences in an essay. If the sentences are good, good mark, and if they are bad, bad mark.

We need to get these 'teachers' out of teaching. But the union is so powerful that we can't do that.

What do you people think?

There are alot of bad teachers out there, having recently graduated I have been through my fair share, and yes they exist in post-secondary institutions as well. I think one problem is how teachers teach. I.E, the lever principle....Work=Force*Distance, you copy that off the board into your notes and thats what it is...there is no explanation you don't dive into the meaning it remains superficial and a useless fact, not to mention hard to memorise. The simple reason I can remember this si because in grade 9 my science teacher handed us all waterbottles and showed us the application of the lever principle in every day life, and as he promised every time I open a bottle I think of the lever principle. First things first should then be an overhaul of currently accepted methods of teaching in schools, with a better teaching method.

The next problem with Education is that it focuses on quantity rather then quality. It has been well documented that we can really only remember the first 5 minutes and last five minutes, and if we are truly lucky a total of 15 minutes of one speech/lecture. Even then if the teacher is not atleast a decent orator you will find that those times are even further constricted. This is amplified by the fact that most teachers normally have to skip over something or other as the course eventually ends. PErhpas jsut a simple overview and a co-operative in class project coudl fix some of these problems, take a laod off the teacher and allow struggling students to get attention through groups. We coudl also look at eliminate or shrinking un-important criteria, I.E the periodic table I remeber ever year spending a month covering the periodic table and as much as chemistry interested me, I still never memorized the whole table, despite the fact that was what was wanted. I think in cases like this which are found in every subject it is best to go from micro involvement to macro involvement. It saves time and you get the point across, Atomic number, Atomic Mass, table ordered by Atomic weight, explosive/compbustable elements on the right, stable elements on the left, noble gases on the far right. Basic overview that suites what the student needs to know insteadof calling out the names of hard to pronounce elements named after god knows what, because int eh end all your rember is Krypton and that is thanks to Superman.

I myself have also had teachers tell me the same things about marking, BBM, on most major provincial tests or what not you are marked by more then one teacher in hopes of avoiding situations liek that, however you always run the possibility of that happening. Of course when you actualy read some essay you can understand why teachers do it, but i doesn't make it right, especially considering they are paid to do so, maybe it should be hourly wages instead of how many you mark type wages.

To me High school marks are really un-important as you either graduate or you don't graduate, that is what you put on a resume. What matters is that Students learn what they need to learn to prepare them for post-secondary, and I don't think that is happening, partially because we have emphasized math and sciences at the expense of English. That is one of the main problems with the education system, I don't think it prepares you to write or atleast write good. Problem number 2, is the whole emphasis on rembering thigns for the sake of rembering them, the current status quo in are education system, I bleive this limits the abilities of students to think, and actually teaches and trains the mind to not dive into and play around with information but to read it, store it, and puke it up on request.

[caesar]

To me High school marks are really un-important as you either graduate or you don't graduate, that is what you put on a resume

Nonsense; you need very good grades in high school to get accepted in university.

[RB]

I personally think we should test teachers.

Why would you do this? I have often wondered about the teachers testing from a student viewpoint, but I assure you it is not the same level playing field

These are folks that have invested years and years and encouraged to enter into the teaching profession because they value education and wish to impart knowledge. I don’t believe just anyone could teach, it is a conscious decision and sacrifices they make and they followed though for a while to harness specialization to end up in the classroom.

High school teaching is the most unforgettable and rewarding work experience I have ever had, I taught math to 16 year olds, a then 16 year old myself while in University with no “specialization in education learning theories” … oops but I did called it quits and also never returned to university until a bit later

But based on experience what I can say is what was encouraged: clinical assessment, and peer assessment and some review process and conversations/discussions that allowed me to look critically at the work, adjust and master whatever I do in effort to have good results meaning students grasps concepts etc with the “quantity” required.

Various self-regulating professions such as doctors, lawyers, engineers promote professional upgrading. In some professions they require a set number of hours of professional upgrading in order to renew memberships.

Testing teachers or any other professionals for that matter are really betraying a profession. Look it it this way, what if 100% of the teachers pass this testing who would you recommend as the delete. How about cost association is with this testing, like how many millions? and now where is the benefit? the downside then? Try this, folks discouraged from entering the profession. What to do then? Focus here, looks like a trend, so declare shortages of teachers and encourage skilled immigration?

So my response sirs first take responsibility for your own learning, you accomplish much more and you wind up where you want to be. If you know there are several ways to do quadratics, ask your teachers for the alternatives, OR take charge and find it yourself

Next I think parents’ participation in the education and learning process of the child is as important as that of the teacher and parents are held accountable and responsible to the outcome of the success or failure of the child as is the system. Just don't shift problems around, solve it.

As a no-good parent I do take some pride in participating in my child’s education, and even relearning the periodic table is fun … and it does not always have to be ROTE

Other - about striking, everyone should have some bargaining when if comes to negiotiating in the workplace - who has the power is what overwhelms to striking action so to turn around and claim teachers as "essential service" - no

[Argus]

I personally think we should test teachers.

These are folks that have invested years and years and encouraged to enter into the teaching profession because they value education and wish to impart knowledge. I don’t believe just anyone could teach, it is a conscious decision and sacrifices they make and they followed though for a while to harness specialization to end up in the classroom.

All of which is irrelevent. The amount of effort a worker puts into a job or the sacrifices they make are not my concern. My concern is with their results. One can be an enthusiastic and devoted incompetent if one is unsuited to a particular job. There certainly are incompetent teachers. We all know it. Unfortunately, everything about teaching is now a massive bureacracy. And that bureacracy is indifferent, and largely incompetent. It is the system, more than the individual teachers, which wastes massive amounts of money and which produces high school graduates barely able to communicate in their own language.

Testing teachers or any other professionals for that matter are really betraying a profession.  Look it it this way, what if 100% of the teachers pass this testing who would you recommend as the delete. 

If 100% pass I'd suggest the test is too easy. However, I'm not sure what kind of a test you could really use which would accurately assess which teachers are good ones. Observation is the best way for that. Hell, ask the kids. They'll tell you which teachers are no damn good. In the abscence of that, grade teachers based on how well their kids do as compared to other teachers' kids. If the kids are doing lousy fire the damn teacher.

[RB]

All of which is irrelevent. The amount of effort a worker puts into a job or the sacrifices they make are not my concern. My concern is with their results.

I am quite sure that the system is never going to please everyone and is going to get blame for outputting THE crime

You want good results then invest in a better system, fewer students in the classroom per teacher, and better wages for the teacher, and to stop thinking the only way is some tradition we must practice such as testing - there are 4 students in my current class and we are wondering whether we should have a mid term and an end of term exam, and also wondered is our main objective competition of each other, or to test whether the prof. is as good as we think

I also wanted to say to you that the background of what we become is never discarded, it moulds the competence and those sparks you find in the teachers themselves and is now transfer to the little ones and furthermore teachers are what is significant in the word “education”.

In defence for the teacher on “kids are doing lousy – fire them” I must remind you that learning can take place independent of a teacher but get this when the teacher don’t show – here is a happy face - it means no school

If 100% pass I'd suggest the test is too easy.

How about if they all pass it means they really know their stuff and they religiously follow the school system management.

Hell, ask the kids. They'll tell you which teachers are no damn good. In the abscence of that, grade teachers based on how well their kids do as compared to other teachers' kids. If the kids are doing lousy fire the damn teacher.

Example now, tell me how about the new conflicts of increased violence in the school system, are teachers to be held responsible. There are other issues connected to why students don't perform

If the kids have problems then form some student body, local and national and voice the concerns

[August1991]

Unfortunately, everything about teaching is now a massive bureacracy. And that bureacracy is indifferent, and largely incompetent. It is the system, more than the individual teachers, which wastes massive amounts of money

I agree Argus, at least in the larger provinces.

The education system is Soviet in style with union members fulfilling the role of the Communist Party guides. There is an official dogma which cannot be questioned.

In practical terms, major decisions are entirely divorced from the needs of children and parents. The market signals are entirely distorted. There is a great disconnect between money coming in and money going out. At the same time, dedicated teachers try to do the best they can while ignoring all the upsetting events around them.

This situation is typical of advanced bureaucracy such as in Soviet organizations under Brezhnev.

In the case of Canada, I don't see any possible change in the future. Unions and provincial education departments are not going to suddenly disappear.

Perhaps I'm being harsh. There are many private secondary schools in Quebec, for example.

[takeanumber]

I agree that education needs to be talked about more.

I'll just state that I think too many teachers get dumped on. They're not all awful. Granted, there are a few bad teachers. Thankfully, we rotate teachers from grade to grade.

There isn't any perfect system.

[Slavik44]

To me High school marks are really un-important as you either graduate or you don't graduate, that is what you put on a resume

Nonsense; you need very good grades in high school to get accepted in university.

This is where i disagree, your marks almost need to be to good, you are better off, spending a year in a college and then transfering to a highclass university, even if you have decent marks, I may have graduated with honours and a 88% average, but personally I would rather go to a college where there is much smaller class sizes, therefore giving you more indivualized even somewhat personalized learning and much greater attention. This offers a smoother transition into university and your highly important grades will not deflate as much due to the sudden change in environment.

[playfullfellow]

As with any occupation, you have good teachers and bad teachers. It doesn't matter what profession you look into, you will have poor workers and good workers. The main difference is that when you have to deal with unionized workers such as teachers and postal workers, it is extremely difficult to get rid of poor workers. If things are going to be downsized or the fat trimmed off, then seniority rules, not the quality of the work you do. Aside from breaking the laws, it is almost impossible to get rid of a poor teacher.

I consider myself lucky with my education, I had some very good teachers for the most part. I am also from the generation where we had to show teachers respect and they in turn did the same. The few not so good teachers I had were frustrating in that I felt deprived of learning things properly. I think some of the teachers out there should have to take the same provincial exams as the kids and see how they do. If they are not well above the average, then they need to look into upgrading their own education.

[takeanumber]

I blame parents for their children's lack of respect for adults and teachers.

You can't expect teachers to teach your child literally everything, including common courtesy.

I'd also be tempted to say that many teachers go bad precisely because of some of the little brats sticking a craw in their plans. I'm sure some of these brats also take away a lot of time from the children who are actually attentive.

I wouldn't blame all bad teachers on bad children, but I'd certainly say that it's just one piece to the puzzle.

[playfullfellow]

You can't expect teachers to teach your child literally everything, including common courtesy.

Thats very true TN, a lot of our kids friends have to be continually reminded about proper courtesy and manners here when they visit. Over time, most of them get the idea and improve their attitudes around here.

Our kids have definate unbreakable rules when it comes to courtesy and respect and their friends know it too but they don't mind it seems. They great plenty of compliments and that makes them all feel pretty good.

[Argus]

All of which is irrelevent. The amount of effort a worker puts into a job or the sacrifices they make are not my concern. My concern is with their results.

You want good results then invest in a better system, fewer students in the classroom per teacher, and better wages for the teacher, and to stop thinking the only way is some tradition we must practice such as testing -

I am under the impression Ontario now spends about as much if not more per pupil than just about any other country on Earth. Is that incorrect? Do you have some information that the Germans, say, the Swedes, the Finns, the Dutch or Irish spend far more than we do?

Test results are not what concern me. My concern is with high school graduates who are unable to form a coherent written sentence, can't read well enough to follow moderately complex instructions, have no knowledge of math except how to push calculator buttons, and know virtually nothing of history or geography or science, or much of anything else.

[August1991]

This data for 1998 from National Council Educ Stats (US) (go to indicator 22)

Education public expenditure as % of GDP

France 4.1%

Canada 3.7%

UK 3.4%

Italy 3.4%

US 3.4%

Germany 2.8%

Japan 2.8%

I'll bet other stats will show similar standings.

Argus, I agree with you that we should be looking at "results", given the money spent. It's just that I don't know of any meaningful method to measure "results". Worse, the education bureaucracy would quickly find a way around any method devised.

[Guest eureka]

I would emphatically agree that we have to talk more about education. The same old "teacher bashing" from so many quarters demonstrates that ignorance is alive ann well.

I would say that there are very few "bad" teachers. There are god teachers and some not so good but all, as in any profession have had to prove competence and the requisite educational standards to get their positions.

There are bad students and bad parents, though, who make it impossible for almost every teacher to do even the job that absurd curricula requires. Most teachers are quite unable to teach learning and wisdom They are bound to prodecue results from overcrowded course material that allows of no latitude for education in other than certain factual information.

When little Johnny becomes big Johnny and goes off to college, put the blame where it belongs for his ineptitude. It belongs squarely on a generation of parents who have abdicated their responsibility. It belongs with those who design course materials from a political publicity perspective.

It does not belong on an overworked, overstressed profession. Teaching, BTW, some years ago, was rated as the third most stressful profession. That was before the clown cabal, Harris, Klein and a couple of others, found it a useful political ploy to demonise teavhers. When one considers that, after the first five years from graduation, only about one third of these professionals have not abandoned the profession for more remunerative and less stressful occupations, it becomes possible to see this in a more reasoned fashion.

[Guest eureka]

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d02/ch_6.asp

This link gives comparative expenditures

[RB]

Test results are not what concern me. My concern is with high school graduates who are unable to form a coherent written sentence, can't read well enough to follow moderately complex instructions, have no knowledge of math except how to push calculator buttons, and know virtually nothing of history or geography or science, or much of anything else.

Look you cannot assign the blame on teachers because kids can't read.

We are talking about the same school system my kid is accessing - I can't blame the teacher because my kid is lanky, uncoordinated and can't run, you motivate the kids and encourage them, and give them techniques needed to run a good race and even when they lose they win

Parents have a big part in this, and they need to take the owness of such a failure. First parents need to know their own child and recognise early symptoms of problems.

But also there are so many other factors influencing why the child does poorly including these:

- are they regular attendees in the classes

- are they heavy into extra activities

- do they have behavioural/emotional problem, [perhaps dealing with death of a love one, or divorce

- do they have social issues

- they do badly, and then they continue to do badly, would the parent intervene

- kids doing poorly has close links to socio-economic being

- it has links to the parents education also

- and the study habits

It is just mighty unfair for anyone to blame the poor student performance on a poor teacher’s performance - those factors are external to the teachers' liking

One suggestion would be if early signs are detected that one-on-one home program as remedy - so like substitute a professional one-on-one for the don't give a damm parent or hmm the concern parent

Here is what is intrinsic for the teacher though - for testing

In regards to promotion of testing, I frankly disagree that it should be the sole determinant of a student ability, and performance

In an experiment conducted within an elementary school, Grolnick

Students were given informational work and told the following:

1) no test

2) there will be a test, but no consequence for pass or fail

3) there is a test, and will graded (controlled test)

Results

#3 control test produced short tem, rote memory, and less learning and knowledge integration than #1 & #2

[RB]

Teaching, BTW, some years ago, was rated as the third most stressful profession. That was before the clown cabal, Harris, Klein and a couple of others, found it a useful political ploy to demonise teavhers. When one considers that, after the first five years from graduation, only about one third of these professionals have not abandoned the profession for more remunerative and less stressful occupations, it becomes possible to see this in a more reasoned fashion.

Yes, if all of us were to be practical, and do what we can do best accumulate wealth there ain't nothing such as a noble profession anymore

I wonder what the youngsters are saying - is teaching a profession to be in now?

[caesar]

I think teachers have a difficult job. We have now thrown special needs children into public schooling rather than keeping them in segragated schools where their needs can be better met without disrupting regular students.

I think it is a disservice for all the kids. ESL students make up a large segment of the schools now and can slow down effective learning. I think kids that can learn easier should be in classes with others with the same learning abilities. School is very boring for students that learn quickly; you just keep hearing the same things over and over till you just tune it all out. We need to keep these students interested in learning by giving the challenges that interest them.

[Trajan]

I think we need a major redesign of the education ‘system.’

First we need to define levels and responsibility.

It must be the responsibility of society at large, the state in the 21st century, to provide an elementary education. It must be the right and duty of the state to require that all – or nearly all – residents remain in school until they have completed that elementary education programme – or reached the age of majority.

All other education should be the responsibility of independent agencies which work to established standards in a fairly free market.

Let me deal, briefly, with the definition of ‘elementary’ – I, personally, don’t know, exactly, what that means and I am very certain that the experts in e.g. the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education and all the educrats in provincial capitals are equally ignorant. But I’m quite certain that folks like Buzz Hargrove (Canadian Autoworkers) and Bob Brown (CAE Inc) could lead teams who could develop the right standards. The aim of an elementary education is to produce a good, law abiding, productive (by which I mean employable) citizen – not a drone, or a worker but a citizen.

Now, consider higher education everything, that is, beyond the (say, 10 years) elementary level.

We have ‘standards’ now for higher education. Young engineers must, eventually, pass exams set and administered by their provincial professional associations – universities teach to those standards, ditto bar exams for lawyers and certification exams for accountants. Universities which have poor success rates at professional standards quickly improve their programmes or go out of business – it is a wonderful example of the free market at work. The educrats in Toronto or Victoria or Edmonton are totally and completely out of the loop in this system and it works … probably because government and bureaucrats are left out in the cold, where they belong.

There are similar ‘standards’ for other programmes – graduate schools and professional schools set the ‘standards’ for undergraduate programmes.

There ought to be similar ‘standards’ for e.g. college and university entrance: standards which are set by the colleges and universities and which are measured by the colleges and universities without any interference from the educrats. The secondary education system – high schools, essentially, would then teach to those standards, or go out of business.

Colleges and universities should be required to charge full fees: probably something like $50,000.00 per year for a science undergraduate in a mid-ranked university. Governments should provide a mix of scholarships and prizes based upon the previous year’s performance – including, therefore, the final year of high school. A+ students should get real scholarships worth 105% of the costs of tuition books, fees and reasonable living expenses for the next year, 100% for A and A- average students, 90% for B students and so on down to 40% for C- students and 0% for academic failures. Students who maintain A averages year after year ought to get additional cash prizes. Scholarships and prizes should be awarded based on academic performance only.

Students should be able to top up their scholarships with loans which should have their interest rates adjusted downwards in accordance with how much a student’s academic performance improved during the year. Say, for example, the base rate for a student loan was 3% - a C+ student who improved to and A- average would only pay 1.5% for his loan and, probably, would not need one for the next year.

Standards creep or mark inflation can be controlled by the ‘outcome’ testers and by independent boards of examiners.

At the elementary school level we need to find creative ways to offset the effects of poverty. School meals – two per day, and school uniforms, both free for the poor and those from low income families, might help. The best way to help the children of the poor catch up with the children of the middle class and the rich is to build more public libraries and sports/recreation centres in poorer communities and to provide additional tutors in schools in poor areas.

Money spent on, especially, elementary education is likely to be ‘saved’ over time by concomitant savings in the police/criminal justice system – most criminals are poor and stupid, and in the health care system – the poor and poorly educated are, I believe, greater burdens on the health are system than are their middle and upper class neighbours.

[Guest eureka]

Your ideas, in part, smack of the elitism that we have, thankfully, got away from over the past two generations or so. You seem to downgrade the worth of most to ensure you a favoured few at the academic peak. Parts of your post I can agree with but not the inevitable distinctions.

Intellectual capacity is not the only determinant of human worth and you do not allow for differences in maturity amongst some other factors in educational development.

Some of the best performances, economically, have been in countries that have placed an emphasis on education for all and provided it. Ireland is one example.

[Big Blue Machine]

It would cost too much to reform the whole education system.

[August1991]

Reading through this thread, I'm surprised that no one has questioned whether education is in fact a "good thing".

The Old Left confuses a Symbol for Reality, a Diploma with Education. A Rolex with being Rich.

IOW, if few people have a Rolex, it makes sense to have one. (You're rich!) But what if the State makes it possible for everyone to have a Rolex?

This is the simple error of the Old Left.

Diplomas are a race to the bottom, they are Olympic competition. Students waste their lives to win a prize, a piece of bureaucratic paper. (@TalkNumb, that's rent-seeking.)

The students' efforts produce no benefit for anyone; except the winning students. Unlike a market, no third party gains. The only benefit is the prize.

India and the Soviet Union were obsessed with bureaucratic diplomas. Both were impoverished. A society with individuals who desire a Gold Medal will fail. A society with individuals who desire money will succeed.

The Old Left doesn't understand this idea at all. The Old Left thinks money, diplomas, Gold Medals are all the same. Winners, Losers, Greed.

The New Left gets it.

----

But also reading through this thread, I think we should leave it to BigBlueMachine and Slavik44 to express an opinion. It seems they have to survive in Canada's education system. They probably understand it better than other posters. Maybe the rest of us can learn something from their posts.

[takeanumber]

Ugh.

I agree with August with the most part.

The difference though between a Soviet bureaucratic diploma and a Canadian bureaucratic diploma is that the Canadian diploma prepares people for the world.

The Soviet one prepared people for the Soviets.

I think it's really important that everybody know how to read, and do basic math...how else are they going to pay taxes and understand contracts?

The next level is how to think.

I don't think our curriculum is designed to teach people how to think. Sadly, I don't think many parents are teaching their kids how to think.

I believe that before emphasis be placed on math or science, kids need to be taught some basic logic skills.

I think all of society benefits when its citizens know how to think.

The third level needs to be how to do stuff. Type, run a computer....basic information technology stuff.

After that, everybody can go off to either trade schools, university, hair colledges or whatever the hell people do these days.

But anyway.

Let's not be blaming the teachers. They're just one cog in the machine. You got parents, administrators, and voters to blame too.

[maplesyrup]

BBM....dedicated to you.

Education pays big-time, StatsCan says

Stay in school and the odds are you'll get the big bucks.

You will never understand Che Guevara but that's OK, as you will have lots of company (just came back from watching Redford's Motorcycle Diaries - fuck it deserves an Oscar!)