Hudson Jones Posted March 29, 2013 Report Posted March 29, 2013 Bibi finally succumbs to pressure and apologizes to Turkey for its role in the Gaza flotilla raid and agrees to pay compensation to the families of the victims. This admission of guilt is of course, political. It coincides with Obama's visit to Israel and it comes at a time when U.S. and Israel are looking for more support from Turkey in regards to Syria and Iran. Nine Turkish activists were killed when Israeli commandos boarded the Mavi Marmara in an operation to prevent it and other ships in the flotilla from reaching Gaza. The bloody confrontation was met with a wave of international condemnation, and Israel was forced to ease its stringent blockade of the tiny Palestinian enclave. Turkey cut all diplomatic ties with Israel following the incident, and demanded that the Gaza blockade be lifted before normal relations would be restored. In Gaza, which has been ruled by the Islamist movement Hamas for almost six years, Turkey was hailed as a champion of Palestinian rights. Reconciliation talks ran into trouble recently when Erdogan called Zionism a "crime against humanity" and compared it to fascism. Link Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Shady Posted March 29, 2013 Report Posted March 29, 2013 Nice. Has Turkey apologized to anyone yet regarding the Armenian genocide? Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 29, 2013 Report Posted March 29, 2013 An apology from both sides would have been nice, but I don't see that happening. As for the compensation, I disagree with it. While the loss of life is unarguably regrettable and tragic, had the actions on the flotilla been different, the Israeli response would have been different. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted March 29, 2013 Report Posted March 29, 2013 Nice. Has Turkey apologized to anyone yet regarding the Armenian genocide? lol...no. Plus, the founder of the Palestinian cause participated in the Armenian genocide. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Rue Posted March 30, 2013 Report Posted March 30, 2013 Bibi finally succumbs to pressure and apologizes to Turkey for its role in the Gaza flotilla raid and agrees to pay compensation to the families of the victims. This admission of guilt is of course, political. It coincides with Obama's visit to Israel and it comes at a time when U.S. and Israel are looking for more support from Turkey in regards to Syria and Iran. Nine Turkish activists were killed when Israeli commandos boarded the Mavi Marmara in an operation to prevent it and other ships in the flotilla from reaching Gaza. The bloody confrontation was met with a wave of international condemnation, and Israel was forced to ease its stringent blockade of the tiny Palestinian enclave. Turkey cut all diplomatic ties with Israel following the incident, and demanded that the Gaza blockade be lifted before normal relations would be restored. In Gaza, which has been ruled by the Islamist movement Hamas for almost six years, Turkey was hailed as a champion of Palestinian rights. Reconciliation talks ran into trouble recently when Erdogan called Zionism a "crime against humanity" and compared it to fascism. Link Your response again provides the same motus operandi and you again provide an false statement. Israel never admitted liability. It stated the deaths were regrettable. You once again mistated what was actually stated and I ask readers to note that in each of your posts you are now making misleading statements. If it were one or two that would be something but you do it continuously now. Quote
Shady Posted March 30, 2013 Report Posted March 30, 2013 Your response again provides the same motus operandi and you again provide an false statement. Israel never admitted liability. It stated the deaths were regrettable. You once again mistated what was actually stated and I ask readers to note that in each of your posts you are now making misleading statements. If it were one or two that would be something but you do it continuously now. Thanks for pointing that out. I took his word for it, but you're right. Apparently he has a tough time with telling the truth. I'll be more careful in the future when he posts regarding Israel. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Posted March 30, 2013 I don't understand what Rue is talking about now. Can someone translate his latest rant? Did Bibi apologize or not? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 30, 2013 Report Posted March 30, 2013 I don't understand what Rue is talking about now. Can someone translate his latest rant? Did Bibi apologize or not?Really? You are unable to comprehend what he clearly said? I'll try to help clarify. "Apologizing" and "admitting guilt" are two different things. So Rue is right. Israel didn't "admit guilt," but apologized, expressed regret, for any part they may have played resulting in the nine deaths. As I said, it would have been nice if there would have been such an apology on both sides, but evidently Israel is the only one expected to be held accountable for its actions. Typical. And hypocritical. But, sadly, that's typical, too. If you still don't get it, well, that could explain a lot. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) Really? You are unable to comprehend what he clearly said? I'll try to help clarify. "Apologizing" and "admitting guilt" are two different things. So Rue is right. Israel didn't "admit guilt," but apologized, Why would a person apologize for something if they were not guilty of doing something wrong? Edited March 30, 2013 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 30, 2013 Report Posted March 30, 2013 Why would a person apologize for something if they were not guilty of doing something wrong? Because they are sorry for the outcome? Furthermore, one side's apology doesn't absolve the other of anything/everything. It's why I've said - more than once - that an apology from both sides would have been nice. Apparently, though, the wrongs/errors committed by those on the flotilla are not as grievous as Israel's, and they are not to be held accountable. Why is that, since it's part of the reason 9 people were killed? To me that means it's not really about the deaths, but about demonizing Israel. That others are not held to the same standard/expectations/accountability says it all. IMO, it was a mistake for Israel to apologize since too many will now say 'See? Israel apologized, therefore Israel was guilty!' - while absolving those on the flotilla of all their 'errors/wrongdoings;' ie: not demanding an apology for the part their actions may have played in the deaths. Anyone who truly cares about the lives lost would be equally critical of the actions of those on the flotilla - and demand the same apology from them as they do from Israel. But that's not happening, is it? Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Posted March 31, 2013 Because they are sorry for the outcome? Okay? And? A person apologizes for making a mistake. Netanyahu voiced regret for the loss of life in the 2010 Mavi Marmara incident, apologizing for any mistakes that led to the death of nine Turkish activists. Link This is admitting that Israel made a mistake and the apology is proof of this. It doesn't get any simpler. IMO, it was a mistake for Israel to apologize since too many will now say 'See? Israel apologized, therefore Israel was guilty!' You and Lieberman have the same views. Yisrael Beytenu chairman MK Avigdor Lieberman blasted Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Friday, over Netanyahu"s apology to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Earlier, Netanyahu spoke on the phone with his Turkish counterpart and apologized for the deaths of nine Turks in a 2010 raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla. Link Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) Okay? And? A person apologizes for making a mistake.And a person apologizes to express regret, as has already been pointed out. Netanyahu voiced regret for the loss of life in the 2010 Mavi Marmara incident, apologizing for any mistakes that led to the death of nine Turkish activists. ]Link Let's look at the actual statement, as the quote you chose leaves out a crucial word: "Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed an apology to the Turkish people for any error that may have led to the loss of life..." the statement said. This is admitting that Israel made a mistake and the apology is proof of this. It doesn't get any simpler.It's not admitting guilt for the deaths. Just because Israel made some mistakes in handling the incident doesn't mean it's guilty of the deaths. Edited to add: I noticed you completely dismissed the part of my post referring to mistakes made by those on the flotilla that may have led to the deaths. As I said, it comes across not as concern over the deaths, but rather an opportunity to demonize Israel. Edited March 31, 2013 by American Woman Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Posted March 31, 2013 And a person apologizes to express regret, as has already been pointed out. Let's look at the actual statement, as the quote you chose leaves out a crucial word: "Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed an apology to the Turkish people for any error that may have led to the loss of life..." the statement said. It's not admitting guilt for the deaths. Just because Israel made some mistakes in handling the incident doesn't mean it's guilty of the deaths. He is apologizing for the errors that were made. Israel was guilty of making mistakes that lead to deaths. This is why Bibi apologized. Edited to add: I noticed you completely dismissed the part of my post referring to mistakes made by those on the flotilla that may have led to the deaths. As I said, it comes across not as concern over the deaths, but rather an opportunity to demonize Israel. Those on the flotilla didn't kill anyone. They were in international waters and were defending themselves from piracy. This is why there was no apology made and this is why Bibi was the only one who apologized. Oh and once you get around to it, show some courage and answer yet another post you failed to respond to. Either explain your comment or admit that your comment was misinformation. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) He is apologizing for the errors that were made. Israel was guilty of making mistakes that lead to deaths. This is why Bibi apologized.No. Try reading the statement. REPEATING. He said mistakes that MAY have lead to the deaths. He's not saying that their errors did lead to the deaths; that they were responsible for the deaths. And AGAIN. There were mistakes made by those on the flotilla, too, which may have lead to the deaths. He said nothing about guilt. As for why he apologized - as you already said, it was political. Those on the flotilla didn't kill anyone. They were in international waters and were defending themselves from piracy. This is why there was no apology made and this is why Bibi was the only one who apologized.That's simply your opinion. Those on the flotilla, however, will never be held accountable for their actions. Oh and once you get around to it, show some courage and answer yet another post you failed to respond to. Either explain your comment or admit that your comment was misinformation."No" to both of your demands. I don't play your game. Edited March 31, 2013 by American Woman Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) No. Try reading the statement. REPEATING. He said mistakes that MAY have lead to the deaths. He's not saying that their errors WERE responsible for the deaths. And AGAIN. There were mistakes made by those on the flotilla, too, which may have lead to the deaths. He said nothing about guilt. As for why he apologized - as you already said, it was political. If a drunk driver kills people unintentionally, he is still guilty. Israel made mistakes that led to the deaths of people and this is why they apologized. They were guilty of errors which led to deaths of people. It's very simple. Twisting and turning won't change that. That's simply your opinion. Those on the flotilla, however, will never be held accountable for their actions. The people on the boat not killing anyone is not my opinion. It's a fact. Their ship being boarded in international waters is not my opinion. It's a fact. "No" to both of your demands. I don't play your game. That's okay. I don't expect you to admit to the false information you spread on here. You have done it many times and every single time you are questioned, you either try to twist and turn or you simply run away and not respond. Which is what you did again this time in the thread I've linked to above. You ran away and did not respond. This is who you are. Edited March 31, 2013 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 If a drunk driver kills people unintentionally, he is still guilty. Israel made mistakes that led to the deaths of people and this is why they apologized. That's your conclusion. Your claim that Israel admitted guilt is false; it's a conclusion that YOU and others have drawn. That hardly makes it a fact. They were guilty of errors which led to deaths of people. It's very simple. Twisting and turning won't change that. Again. That's a conclusion, drawn by you and others. That doesn't make it true. It most definitely is not a fact. Twisting the words that were said, leaving out a crucial word, doesn't change that. The people on the boat not killing anyone is not my opinion. It's a fact. I didn't say they did kill anyone. I said mistakes that they made could have LED to the people being killed. In the exapmple you cited re: the drunk driver - if a bar tender had kept plying the drunk with drinks, and said drunk then got in the car and killed someone, he would be 'guilty' too, even though he didn't kill anyone. Their ship being boarded in international waters is not my opinion. It's a fact. Did I say one word about that?? No, I did not. That's okay. I don't expect you to admit to the false information you spread on here. Be careful of what you accuse me of. I said nothing false. Israel does have a different explanation for their actions than yours. That's a fact. If you are truly unaware, you might consider educating yourself better on the issues before posting your countless one-sided threads criticizing Israel. You have done it many times and every single time you are questioned, you either try to twist and turn or you simply run away and not respond. Which is what you did again this time in the thread I've linked to above. You ran away and did not respond. This is who you are. Who I am is someone who doesn't play your game. Who I am is someone who points out your erroneous statements. Who I am is someone who doesn't let your twisting of the facts go unchallenged. Who I am is someone who will call you on it and point out the reality. In this case, Israel apologized but did NOT "admit guilt" for the deaths. That's your take on it, no more, no less, as you leave the word "MAY" out of what Israel actually said. As I also said, concern over the deaths would include concern over what actions took place on the flotilla. Until that happens, this comes across as nothing short of more demonizing of Israel. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Posted March 31, 2013 That's your conclusion. Your claim that Israel admitted guilt is false; it's a conclusion that YOU and others have drawn. That hardly makes it a fact. Again. That's a conclusion, drawn by you and others. That doesn't make it true. It most definitely is not a fact. Twisting the words that were said, leaving out a crucial word, doesn't change that. Netanyahu apologized to Turkey for errors made that led to the deaths. That's not only the conclusion but it's a fact. I didn't say they did kill anyone. I said mistakes that they made could have LED to the people being killed. In the exapmple you cited re: the drunk driver - if a bar tender had kept plying the drunk with drinks, and said drunk then got in the car and killed someone, he would be 'guilty' too, even though he didn't kill anyone. Did I say one word about that?? No, I did not. I said that they didn't kill anyone and the attack on the ship was in the international waters. You said that's my opinion and I corrected you by saying those are not my opinion, but facts. Be careful of what you accuse me of. I said nothing false. Israel does have a different explanation for their actions than yours. That's a fact. If you are truly unaware, you might consider educating yourself better on the issues before posting your countless one-sided threads criticizing Israel. You had several opportunities to show Israel's explanation and you failed in doing it. Either learn to back up your statements or stop spreading misinformation. No matter what you are trying to do here, Israel has apologized to Turkey for its role in the deaths of the Turks. Israel will now be paying compensation to the families. This shows that they are responsible for the deaths. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 Netanyahu apologized to Turkey for errors made that led to the deaths. That's not only the conclusion but it's a fact. No. That's not a "fact" at all. Again. Quoting the statement: "Prime Minister Netanyahu expressed an apology to the Turkish people for any error that may have led to the loss of life..." the statement said. Do you not understand what "may have" means? It does not mean what you are saying it does, and the constant repetition of your take on it doesn't change that fact. I said that they didn't kill anyone and the attack on the ship was in the international waters. You said that's my opinion and I corrected you by saying those are not my opinion, but facts. I never said the "international waters" part was opinion - which is likely why that's the only part of your claim you chose to repeat. I've noticed that you're very selective that way. But again. I don't play your game; the whole of what you said, the whole of what I quoted and responded to, is not "fact." It's your opinion. As I said. You had several opportunities to show Israel's explanation and you failed in doing it. Either learn to back up your statements or stop spreading misinformation. Again. I do not respond to your demands - and this is the last time I will respond to a reference from another thread. Address what I say in this thread, or don't respond to my posts. No matter what you are trying to do here, Israel has apologized to Turkey for its role in the deaths of the Turks. Israel will now be paying compensation to the families. This shows that they are responsible for the deaths. I'm not "trying" to do anything - I'm doing it. I'm calling you on your selective quoting of what was said and how it changes the meaning of what was actually said. One. More. Time. Israel did NOT apologize "for its role in the deaths of the Turks." It apologized for any role it MAY have played. Quite different. When you speak of "spreading misinformation," you might want to look inward. So you can keep repeating your take on it over and over and over again - but that doesn't change the reality. Israel apologized for what MAY have lead to the deaths. Now it's time for those involved with the flotilla to do the same. I won't, however, hold my breath waiting for that to happen. There's very selective outrage regarding the deaths; that's all too apparent. Quote
Peter F Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) The nerve of the guy to characterize this as an apology! This Hudson Jones guy must be some shill for terrorists! Revealed! Israeli International Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz supports terrorism! http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Steinitz-Apology-to-Turkey-important-for-intl-affairs-308155 Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu did the correct and rational thing by apologizing to Turkey last week over the Mavi Marmara affair, International Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz (Likud Beytenu) said Friday evening in an interview with Channel 2. He added that in his opinion Israel should have apologized three years ago. Terrorist shills on Jerusalem Post Staff! http://www.jpost.com/International/Obama-Netanyahu-Erdogan-speak-by-phone-307423 Netanyahu apologizes to Turkey over Gaza flotillaBy HERB KEINON, JPOST.COM STAFF CNN Shills! http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/world/meast/israel-turkey-apology/index.html Israel to Turkey: We apologize for deadly raid on Gaza-bound flotillaBy Sara Sidner. Ivan Watson and Joe Sterling, CNN Israeli Cabinet Minister shill: http://www.timesofisrael.com/naftali-bennett-erdogan-making-israel-regret-apology/ “Since the apology was made public, it seems Erdogan is doing everything possible to make Israel regret it, while managing a personal, vitriolic campaign at the expense of Turkish-Israel relations,” Bennett, who is the head of the national religious Jewish Home party, wrote on his Facebook page, in a post titled “IDF fighters, we are always with you.” Another Israeli shill! the Israeli government is riddled withem! http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/lieberman-says-apology-to-turkey-a-serious-mistake.premium-1.511420 Lieberman, who currently chairs the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, stated in response: "An apology by the State of Israel on an Israel Defense Forces operation against a terror organization is a serious mistake.""The apology hurts the motivation of IDF soldiers, strengthens extremists in the area and hurts Israel's struggle along the righteous path," he said.Lieberman added that it is Turkey's current leadership that is solely responsible for the deterioration of relations between the two countries."Erdogan's refusal to apologize for his explicitly anti-Zionist remarks alongside the Israeli apology hurts Israel's dignity and status in the region and the world." National Post Shills: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/22/netanyahu-apologizes-for-tragic-gaza-flotilla-raid-as-israel-resumes-relations-with-turkey/ JERUSALEM — srael agreed to restore full diplomatic relations with Turkey in a surprising turnaround Friday after apologizing for a botched naval raid ... Netenyahu a shill? http://www.pmo.gov.il/English/MediaCenter/Spokesman/Pages/spoketur220313.aspx ... the Prime Minister expressed Israel's apology to the Turkish people for any mistakes that might have led to the loss of life or injury and agreed to conclude an agreement on compensation/nonliability. Did Netenyahu apologize or did he not? I think its pretty clear any apology is conditional upon "any mistakes"...so if there were actually any so-called mistakes then we would have an apology would we not? I think so. I'd say Netenyahu did in fact apologize. I says so because it certainly sounds very much like an apology. Sorta like "gee I'm sorry IF I caused any harm. I regret the whole thing happened" Lighten up. Hudsons right. Israel apologized. Edited March 31, 2013 by Peter F Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 Good Lord. I never said Israel didn't apologize. I said Israel didn't "admit guilt" for the deaths. Perhaps you should read the posts before giving advice to others. Quote
Peter F Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 No guilt? Whats the fund for compensation for? Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) No guilt? Whats the fund for compensation for? Compensation is not an admission of guilt - just as settling out of court is not an admission of guilt. It also doesn't absolve those involved with the flotilla of guilt for any part they may have played. No one was killed on the other boats. Edited March 31, 2013 by American Woman Quote
Peter F Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 I think you are running a double-standard here. If, as you say, the so-called apology and compensation are not admissions of guilt, then what is the need for paticipants in the flottilla to be 'absolved' of guilt? I don't recall any flottilla participants claiming any guilt - yet you say they have guilt anyways despite the non-admission of guilt. You have imposed some level of guilt upon the flottilla participants without them ever admitting to it. But Israel is not guilty for anything because for Israel an admission of guilt is necessary., Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Guest American Woman Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) I think you are running a double-standard here. If, as you say, the so-called apology and compensation are not admissions of guilt, then what is the need for paticipants in the flottilla to be 'absolved' of guilt? I don't recall any flottilla participants claiming any guilt - yet you say they have guilt anyways despite the non-admission of guilt. You have imposed some level of guilt upon the flottilla participants without them ever admitting to it. But Israel is not guilty for anything because for Israel an admission of guilt is necessary., Where did I say those on the flotilla were guilty? There is no double standard. This is a waste of time, having to respond to things I've never said. Have you read my posts? I've said, repeatedly, that an apology from both sides would be nice. I said repeatedly, that Israel's saying "may have" is not an admission of guilt, so by the same standard, my saying the actions of those on the flotilla may have played a part in the deaths is not my saying that they have guilt. The only "double standard" here is the one you are falsely attributing to me. Edited March 31, 2013 by American Woman Quote
Shady Posted March 31, 2013 Report Posted March 31, 2013 I wouldn't bother AM. Haters gonna hate. It just goes to show that with the anti-Israel types, Israel is in a lose-lose situation. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.