How does Intelligent Design work?

[Talby]

I understand original post sought 'details,' but I submit you won't find consistent answers from the proponents of IT. It generally boils down to the universe is a big lego set and everything in it is purposefully constructed to some degree...all macro objects live and innate are, to varying degrees, godfactured, as opposed to arising over time solely from the physical properties within our universe. It's fuel for the circular logic that helps them reconcile "nothing" in the framework of their existence and eventual demise. Which is fair, it used to give me nightmares when I was 3 and it still keeps me awake at night sometimes, and often pour another drink. It's easier to think some big friendly dude made it all, and death leads to an eternity of cookies and milk-no physics, math or having to try and count to infinity involved.

Getting something from nothing requires a lot of squeezing!

[gullyfourmyle]

godfacturing falls apart when you stop to consider; who made God?

My theory is that there has never ever been nothing. The state of 'is' demands that there is always something. You know that from the fact that nature is conservative and always uses previous solutions and adapts them to solve evolving challenges.

You know there is always something because every time you think you've done something really great, there is always something that spoils it's absolute perfection. There is always a fatal flaw to allow for the disruption of the whole.

Our state of being and the entire cosmos operates on the concept of ebb and flow. Things built up to a point, then receding back to component parts. Over and over. No matter how far in you zoom or how far out you zoom this factor is a constant and it's partner in crime is chaos. That allows for nothing to ever repeat exactly. So we have infinite change as well as infinite space.

With these factors in play, the fabric of time and gravity can be flexible as well without folding back on themselves or interweaving. So all things can go in any direction to a point. Such as time can't go backwards even though in some respects it can appear that way as when a movie is rewound.

Because of that, nothing can come back to life and life can't continue after death. That is in terms of the personality surviving death. Can't happen other than being decapitated. But then the head is functionally alive until the blood supply fails which isn't generally that long - unless you're a worm.

Edited December 12, 2013 by gullyfourmyle

[g_bambino]

godfacturing falls apart when you stop to consider; who made God?

Our state of being and the entire cosmos operates on the concept of ebb and flow. Things built up to a point, then receding back to component parts. Over and over.

Where did the component parts come from?

[DogOnPorch]

Where did the component parts come from?

[Talby]

Where did the component parts come from?

From nothing!

Here's my mathematical proof (it's BS but enjoy):

A line, like this one, is made of individual points.

A point is an infinitesimally small thing, it is a dimensionless object, yet they come together (an infinite number of them) to form a line. (check the net on what a 'point' is)

Now with lines, I can make 2D and 3D objects a cube, a pyramid, cylinder, etc 3D objects out of nothing (points).

Extend that argument to the physical universe-an awful lot of 'nothings' coming together to make something....hence the universe.

I'm no mathematician, as any mathematician reading this will tell you-the error is that a point is not of zero dimension, but has a dimension that approaches zero, a kind of indefinite shrinking is the way I understand it. I guess the analogue of the abstract point in this idea to an actual thing in the physical universe would be a black hole, but I'm not a physicist either.

Not idea how the forces of gravity, EM and strong/weak would arise...so physicists/cosmologists you still have a job tomorrow.

[Spiderfish]

I'm no mathematician, as any mathematician reading this will tell you-the error is that a point is not of zero dimension, but has a dimension that approaches zero, a kind of indefinite shrinking is the way I understand it. I guess the analogue of the abstract point in this idea to an actual thing in the physical universe would be a black hole, but I'm not a physicist either.

A singularity (the centre of a black hole) is the point where the quantum forces of the universe break down and cease to exist. Everything in the black hole does indeed have dimension that is in a state of change which increases as it approaches the singularity, but at the singularity it does not "approach zero", it is zero (ie. ceases to exist within the parameters of the physical attributes of the universe).

Getting something from nothing requires a lot of squeezing!

It would seem turning something into nothing also requires a substantial amount of squeezing.

Not idea how the forces of gravity, EM and strong/weak would arise...so physicists/cosmologists you still have a job tomorrow.

The strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity, and EM are complex fundamental forces that are essential for the existence of matter. How were these forces created? I think this is the fundamental premise.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Spiderfish

[gullyfourmyle]

Those were good answers but we always get stuck on how to get something from nothing. My contention is that there has never been a state of absolute nothing. Even nothingness takes space.

[Spiderfish]

Those were good answers but we always get stuck on how to get something from nothing. My contention is that there has never been a state of absolute nothing. Even nothingness takes space.

Your contention is derived from a perspective of existence, it's impossible to fathom non-existence from this perspective. It's like trying to quantify infinity.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Talby]

1.It would seem turning something into nothing also requires a substantial amount of squeezing.

2. The strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity, and EM are complex fundamental forces that are essential for the existence of matter. How were these forces created? I think this is the fundamental premise.

1.

2. You mean that is the fundamental premise of ID. Perhaps. But I would argue the forces "arose" as there is no evidence (yet) they were "created." Splitting hairs on words, but in this thread saying the "C" word isn't cool unless you "believe" in it. When god scrawls "I created the forces" on the moon so it's visible from Earth, I will believe he(it) did it. If he can build electromagnetism from scratch he can sure as f*ck write a quick note on the moon.

[Talby]

My response above gives me an idea. Here we go, an experiment of sorts:

Hey God you have 2 minutes to write "I exist" on the moon so it's visible from Earth.

[Talby]

godfacturing falls apart when you stop to consider; who made God?

My theory is that there has never ever been nothing.

That's the alternative-equally plausible from our perspective. I picked "from nothing" simply because it f*cks with our heads more.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Talby

[Rue]

Those were good answers but we always get stuck on how to get something from nothing. My contention is that there has never been a state of absolute nothing. Even nothingness takes space.

You use human concepts so you don't understand the alpha and omega concept. You have to think outside the box, or in this case the human cognitive process.

Alpha and Omega as a concept is not black and white. It is neither and both at the same time. Lost you?

The concept of alpha and omega is that everything that was, is or can be is at the same time it is everything therefore nothing as the absolutes become one and the same and it is an illusion to think they were ever seperate.

We get up on the illusions of past, present and future tense, or time. We add to the illusion of time the illusion of we and I.

You assume there is a beginning and an end, a me and you and it.

You assume everything and nothing are not the same but totally dettached from one another.

Thus in your world nothing must be and take space. Why must it be? How do you know it is?

Me I am not stuck on something or anything from nothing. I do not start with the concepts of nothing and everything. I consider them illusionary.

To be and not to be at one moment is the alpha and omega concept, the ultimate paradox that defies anything you think logical or possible leta lone plausible for it would mean nothing is and everything is not.

That's the whole point of the Adam and Eve, Ying and Yang and other symbols for positive and negative or opposites.

All religions teach that from the clash of opposites comes new understanding, or as some call it dialetics.

Dialetics is just one tiny part of the fractal equation of chaos to intelligent design and back to chaos.

Mosr religions will teach the same thing-to achieve meaning we must balance the extremes and from the clash of extremes comes the meaning which is temporary and fleeting and gives us just a glimpse of the Alpha and Omega phenomena.

Our problem is we depend heavily on our five senses and time to dictate the structure of our thoughts so we need beginnings, endings, cause and effect, equations that balance. Our entire cognitive processing system depends on finding balance. Our objective methodology or science creates a controlled

environment from which to define truth or absolute.

Me I appreciate science. I think its necessary to contain what would otherwise be unlimited thought processes that would break down and succumb to primal instinct and feelings.

However I do not think science answers all any more than I do systems of belief that worship materialism, power, physicality.

I have no hang ups with a big bang so to speak, the concept of the Alpha and Omega deciding to share itself infinitely so to speak-the concept of energy that comes from a source and then never ends as it travels along a path of expression and mutates as it finds new forms to express itself.

To me the concept of something from nothing or sparks of energy being spit out of the large flame of the Alpha and Omega which literally explodes from silence and sends these tiny particles in free destint in all directions is not a mind blower. It used to be when I was younger and smoked dope which distorted the anxiety that comes with uncertainty and doubt that it blew my mind you can have alpha and omega or death and life as being one and the same and an illusion making them seem dettached.

As I have grown older and come closer to death, I feel the alpha and omega more, or the flow of life or tao or energy pulse that is in all life forms.

The answer to your something from nothing is so simple your brain can not fathom it burdened by all the noise of your present here and now thoughts.

This is why some people meditate and empty their minds of noise so to speak. When they try clear their mind concepts like alpha and omega being nothing and everything at once, become much simpler.

Give yourself a break. You live in a world of noise and expect to hear silence or for that matter feel silence.

How can you taste something if your tongue is coated in tar from cigars? How do you see colour if your eyes are closed? How do you hear if your ears can not receive sound?

To ask about how to understand alpha and omega is like asking a deaf man to hear music or a blind man to paint with colours, and yet if you look you can find humans who are blind who paint and musicians stone deaf who play music.

Artists in their brief moments of pure creativity get a glimpse of this alpha and omega. So do some when they witness death or birth.

The glimpse of what it is comes when you are ready, not before.

Consider yourself a man who smokes to much. Put down the cigarettes and learn to breath again without the sucking in of nicotine.

Or a better analogy, try go sit in the middle of literally nowhere far from the city. Just sit in the middle of it and clear your mind. You will get a glimpse of the feeling of being nothing and connected to everything at the same time.

I have looked in the eyes of death and seen life. Some of us have. Its not frightening. Its like looking in the face of sheer evil so to speak. You know when you see the depths of evil because it reflects back your own face.

The best way I can describe the dark is to explain when you overcome your fear of the dark, you then see light coming from it. Its like learning to float. You think you will sink if you don't foght the water but you have to resist with all your strength the notion of fighting it and just let the water take control, then suddenly you rise from nothing and float on something.

The hints are all around you of how this paradox works.Take math. The closer you get to something the larger the fraction becomes meaning you never get there. It proves the illusion of the wall you think blocks you.

[gullyfourmyle]

Oh, and you are a member of an alien species yourself so you can give us that uniquely alien perspective?

All that stuff you mentioned is old hat. Very old hat.

Mind you so is the rest of the stuff on this thread now. In order to crawl outside the box you have to do some novel thinking and what you just uncrated was your mental brain run-on mixed with a heaping spoonful of condescension and delivered from the back of the bus. Try harder.

You forgot to link your verbosity to the subject of the thread which in itself has become mundane.

It's hard to believe this thread lasted this long.

[Rue]

I was not trying to condescend just offer discussion.

If you think it was condescending I apologize. Sometimes words sound different than their true intention depending on how you perceive them. You can't hear tone in words on forums. If you did you would know mine were anything

but condescending.

I do not presume to tell anyone how to think. I just like to discuss stuff.

Its only an opinion added to the others. No more, no less.

Lol.

Alien? Lol.

Yah and you can call me Elvis.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Rue