The only thing going green is the Arctic.

[shortlived]

It's not false. Extreme environmental policies negatively impact the economy. There's a trade off.

Really how do they impact the economy, I havn't seen them yet, how can you say they do if they havn't been implemented before?

All I know is that in order to have safe water I have to pay the municipality because industry has dumped chemicals into the water, in the south almost all the fish died and have taken 30 years to have marginal recouperation and the water they say is safe has even more chemicals in it. Cancer rates have been increasing. Why is that?

Negative economic impact, more like fining someone for pissing in the pool.

Clean industry costs the tax payer no more than dirty industry because dirty industry take the great lakes a generation ago or lake managua, or lake athabasca.. have secondary effects that negatively effect the economy, take needing to buy water rather than having it from source, not having trees, or having health issues. Frankly take mining operations by Canadian companies or american operations in other countries have devastated and poisoned the environment, ruining the natural economy, and destroying the local populations health, while the company makes money the people loose a whole lot of money and quality of life.

So on the contrary environmental policies havn't showed to negatively impact the economy because they have never been implemented, and on the contrary, lack of environmental policies has devastated local economies.

So shady you are wrong.

We can look at the Exon Valdez wiping out 66% of life in the north oceans, or the poisoning of seafood in the gulf by BP horizon. Look at sudbury, and what happened there. gardening was next to impossible.

So I say shady what have minor environmental policies done, no the economy has not stalled on the contrary under the Liberal weak environmental improvements to the former conservatives policies, the economy thrived.

You shady are wrong, and you shady have no evidence to back your totally baseless claims that a good environment makes the economy bad. On the contrary a good environment makes bad business bad, it seems that is your problem you like destruction of people and places, because that is your economy, as opposed to improving quality of life. You just want to rape and walk away. You are a rapist or a rape collaborator.

What have the current conservatives ignorance of environmental policy brought 175+ billion additional debt and a stalled economy. So shady the facts seem to indicate the opposite. You are wrong.

Oh and of course the biggest economic loss is unfolding with climate change, the need to fight forest fires, whole chunks of the us becoming absent of water source for agriculture that has held together those economies, whole islands sinking, and cities threatened with being sunk under the ocean.. the costs trillions and trillions... how is that for good cost economy. You are just ignorant of the real costs. You are drinking from the tap, not from the source.

You could not be more wrong. That phone will just end up in the dump or recycling center after a few years of use, the chemicals contamination, the hole in the ground and poisoned rivers and food sources will last much longer than any product. Money is artificial, its not the real economy.

A lack of environmental industrial practices, and environmental consumer choices, has many many many hidden costs.

You know there are more than just extraction and production industries.

Edited March 23, 2013 by shortlived

[roy baty]

I think Shady said "extreme" environmental policies shortlived. Moderate common sense policies slowly phased in over the long-term make sense. To think that there is no economic impact for extreme measures not phased in over the long term is very naive to believe. Whatever policies we implement have to be carefully thought out such that they are positive on the environment but at the same time don't have a damaging effect on our economy and it's growth. The problem with extremists is that they want everything done overnight regardless of the impact it may have on the economy and that is dangerous.

[Shady]

more broad-based alarmist generalizations - be specific in both your claimed extremes and trade-offs.

Ask the coal workers that have lost their jobs because of plant closures. Ask construction and manufacturing workers and businesses still waiting for the pipeline to be approved.

[shortlived]

I think Shady said "extreme" environmental policies shortlived. Moderate common sense policies slowly phased in over the long-term make sense. To think that there is no economic impact for extreme measures not phased in over the long term is very naive to believe. Whatever policies we implement have to be carefully thought out such that they are positive on the environment but at the same time don't have a damaging effect on our economy and it's growth. The problem with extremists is that they want everything done overnight regardless of the impact it may have on the economy and that is dangerous.

This is nonsense because we have never had extreme environmental policies so your and shady's comments are complete rhetoric with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying, I can just as easily say extreme environmental policies will make everyone zillionaires.

[roy baty]

This is nonsense because we have never had extreme environmental policies so your and shady's comments are complete rhetoric with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying, I can just as easily say extreme environmental policies will make everyone zillionaires.

Being careful about environmental spending is nonsense?? Rhetoric? lol. To come in here and say extreme environmental policy and spending would have no effect on our economy is what is nonsense. Believe what you want...

Edited March 24, 2013 by roy baty

[Shady]

Being careful about environmental spending is nonsense?? Rhetoric? lol. To come in here and say extreme environmental policy and spending would have no effect on our economy is what is nonsense. Believe what you want...

Sometimes there's no talking to alarmists.

Also, higher energy taxes are a negative for the economy. It raises the price of energy, which essentially raises the prices of all goods and services.

[shortlived]

Being careful about environmental spending is nonsense?? Rhetoric? lol. To come in here and say extreme environmental policy and spending would have no effect on our economy is what is nonsense. Believe what you want...

There is a clear difference between passing off opinion as fact and actually presenting evidence.

You guys in how you are going about this is just putting smell on the table, a load of it. I've seen tons of permaculture videos and I know that it looks way more appealing to my needs than a refinery. I don't use gasoline, it doesn't relate to my direct needs an acre full of various food crops does. That is wealth. (It is also important to note that methane is a natural fuel source that is renewable)

People buy junk and a lot of it, because that is what everyone does, well it is junk. It is used only to make more junk, and that has very little real economic benefit, it is waste production. Trees can grow decades and produce for decades, yet a car is used 5-10 years and then is obsolete and has to be sent to a junk yard, of which land fills are getting so large new ones need to be made making even more destruction. This remains true for cellphones, computers, and countless other things. Fast food joints are creating waste, if people simply had their own supplies tupper ware or a natural wood container or bamboo or whatever all that waste production would be gone, but the fact

is people see it because the environmentally destructing and health destroying products are allowed to be there. Industry will regulate itself but it is junk, it is destructive, unhealthy junk that doesn't help the economy it hurts it when taking into consideration the big picture rather than the money trail from point A to point B|. Business profit is not social profit, it is how products effect society that reveals the true economic benefits.

Fact is the new age of permacultural society presents way more benefits to my lifestyle than your rape culture.

My only real concerns for industrial needs are keeping nuclear facilities and major industrial waste holding facilities safely operating, almost everything else is just part of a failed consumer culture that is finally catching up withitself and will continue to do so over the next two to three decades if we get that far.

The reality is all this crap is to support war industry. If not for the threat of mass genocide and enslavement it would be totally unneeded. There will be no immediate stop short of a world changing emp or nuclear exchange or severe pandemic, but the waste and costs are finally adding up, the economic voodoo slowly less viable, and specific strategic resources becoming harder and harder to obtain. It will turn in on itself. What of the environment we loose can take many lifetimes to return. Those local economies will be waste lands to what were previous viable economic activities. There is no reason not to safely harvest natural resources, it is possible. But it just amounts to rape, and that is for individual profit while the locals in areas and adjoining ecosystems get robbed.

If its not sustainable its not required. We have way more crap production than we need. They are other types of sustainable industries like managed agro forestry.

Edited March 24, 2013 by shortlived

[waldo]

It's not false. Extreme environmental policies negatively impact the economy. There's a trade off.

more broad-based alarmist generalizations - be specific in both your claimed extremes and trade-offs.

Ask the coal workers that have lost their jobs because of plant closures. Ask construction and manufacturing workers and businesses still waiting for the pipeline to be approved.

oh my! Shady, are these your "extremes"? Ontario's coal plant shuttering is the final stage of a decade long initiative begun in 2003... radical overnight extremism!!! It is quite telling you ignore the actual economics relative to direct cost savings, indirect medical savings, new jobs in the new green/clean economy, etc. It seems the last 2 remaining Ontario coal plants will shut down in 2014, a year earlier than planned... I read a number between 200-300 jobs will be impacted. Radical extremism!!!

I'm quite surprised you continue to harp on KXL jobs... I thought we did a very good job in debunking the industry fronted false job numbers, Shady. Don't you remember?

[Shady]

oh my! Shady, are these your "extremes"? Ontario's coal plant shuttering is the final stage of a decade long initiative begun in 2003... radical overnight extremism!!! It is quite telling you ignore the actual economics relative to direct cost savings, indirect medical savings, new jobs in the new green/clean economy, etc. It seems the last 2 remaining Ontario coal plants will shut down in 2014, a year earlier than planned... I read a number between 200-300 jobs will be impacted. Radical extremism!!!

I'm quite surprised you continue to harp on KXL jobs... I thought we did a very good job in debunking the industry fronted false job numbers, Shady. Don't you remember?

Coals plants not just in Ontario, but in North America. Ask those people that've lost their jobs how unecessary environmental regulations have impacted their lives. As for KXL, the fact that it should be approved, and it will provide manufacturing and construction jobs is a fact. You can down play the numbers, but there's still jobs to be created. Those are people that should be working right now. But because of you and your ilk, they're not. That's a fact. Look, you wanted examples of negative impact, and I've provided them. Not to mention the increased cost of energy, which impacts prices of everything for everybody.

[waldo]

Look, you wanted examples of negative impact, and I've provided them.

no - I asked you for specific examples of your declared "extreme environmental policies". And you come up with... what???

I can appreciate you don't want to talk specifics; that's not your alarmist game here, is it? I can appreciate you want to deflect away from the realities of Ontario's most successful coal plant shuttering plan! So you deflect towards the U.S.! But hey now, your talking points need some work: how many U.S. coal plants have been shut down... how many have been shut down as a result of EPA regulations? - regulations you clearly know nothing about. Hey Shady, what type of coal plant are those proposed EPA regulations aimed at? How do you shut down a new coal plant, hey Shady?

As for KXL, the fact that it should be approved, and it will provide manufacturing and construction jobs is a fact. You can down play the numbers, but there's still jobs to be created. Those are people that should be working right now. But because of you and your ilk, they're not. That's a fact.

no - again, the artificially inflated KXL job numbers have been debunked... the real numbers are ~3000 during construction; ~300-500 long-term jobs. Mice-nuts Shady, mice-nuts!

Shady... your inability to support your alarmist nonsense over "extreme environmental policies"... is quite alarming!

[Shady]

no - I asked you for specific examples of your declared "extreme environmental policies". And you come up with... what???

I can appreciate you don't want to talk specifics; that's not your alarmist game here, is it? I can appreciate you want to deflect away from the realities of Ontario's most successful coal plant shuttering plan! So you deflect towards the U.S.! But hey now, your talking points need some work: how many U.S. coal plants have been shut down... how many have been shut down as a result of EPA regulations? - regulations you clearly know nothing about. Hey Shady, what type of coal plant are those proposed EPA regulations aimed at? How do you shut down a new coal plant, hey Shady?

no - again, the artificially inflated KXL job numbers have been debunked... the real numbers are ~3000 during construction; ~300-500 long-term jobs. Mice-nuts Shady, mice-nuts!

Shady... your inability to support your alarmist nonsense over "extreme environmental policies"... is quite alarming!

A new coal plant? Like this...

Obama: "We'll put in place a cap and trade system that's more aggressive than anybody else's out there."

Obama: "If somebody wants to build a coal power plant, they can, it's just, it will bankrupt them."

This is the type of radical policy that we have to avoid in Canada. The president, or prime minister shouldn't go around picking which industries they wish to see go bankrupt. This is not a pro-manufacturing, pro-construction, pro-worker, pro-economic growth policy. It's a radical, restrictive, economy shrinking policy that helps nobody.

[Shady]

no - I asked you for specific examples of your declared "extreme environmental policies". And you come up with... what???

I can appreciate you don't want to talk specifics; that's not your alarmist game here, is it? I can appreciate you want to deflect away from the realities of Ontario's most successful coal plant shuttering plan! So you deflect towards the U.S.! But hey now, your talking points need some work: how many U.S. coal plants have been shut down... how many have been shut down as a result of EPA regulations? - regulations you clearly know nothing about. Hey Shady, what type of coal plant are those proposed EPA regulations aimed at? How do you shut down a new coal plant, hey Shady?

no - again, the artificially inflated KXL job numbers have been debunked... the real numbers are ~3000 during construction; ~300-500 long-term jobs. Mice-nuts Shady, mice-nuts!

Shady... your inability to support your alarmist nonsense over "extreme environmental policies"... is quite alarming!

You're not making any sense. Construction jobs by definition aren't permenant. At some point, the home gets built, or the stadium gets built, or the road gets built, or the office building gets built. The fact that there will be 300 - 500 long term jobs is pretty nice. So why are you and your ilk so against 3000 consturction jobs and 500 long term jobs being created in an economy struggling to recover from a recession? It makes no sense, other than pure radical ideology.

[waldo]

Ask the coal workers that have lost their jobs because of plant closures.

A new coal plant? Like this...

whaaa! I already highlighted your broken talking point, making the distinction between grandfathered existing plants and new coal plants. You said plant closures! Again, what coal plants have been closed in the U.S.? What coal plants have been closed in the U.S. in regards to your stated "unnecessary environmental regulations"? Just name em, Shady... just name em!

and uhhh... your video is from candidate Obama... U.S. Senator Obama - timing is everything, hey?

[bush_cheney2004]

This is rich...please don't fight about the U.S. in a Canada topics thread...it is embarrassing !

[waldo]

You're not making any sense. Construction jobs by definition aren't permenant. At some point, the home gets built, or the stadium gets built, or the road gets built, or the office building gets built. The fact that there will be 300 - 500 long term jobs is pretty nice. So why are you and your ilk so against 3000 consturction jobs and 500 long term jobs being created in an economy struggling to recover from a recession? It makes no sense, other than pure radical ideology.

no - the point was to counter your lock-step claim that aligns with the artificially inflated job numbers. The job numbers aren't significant and are mostly temporary.

[Accountability Now]

You're not making any sense. Construction jobs by definition aren't permenant. At some point, the home gets built, or the stadium gets built, or the road gets built, or the office building gets built. The fact that there will be 300 - 500 long term jobs is pretty nice. So why are you and your ilk so against 3000 consturction jobs and 500 long term jobs being created in an economy struggling to recover from a recession? It makes no sense, other than pure radical ideology.

The number of jobs Keystone will create depends on who you ask with 2500 being the low end estimate.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/a/Are-Keystone-Pipeline-Jobs-Estimates-Just-Pipe-Dreams.htm

[waldo]

The number of jobs Keystone will create depends on who you ask with 2500 being the low end estimate.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/a/Are-Keystone-Pipeline-Jobs-Estimates-Just-Pipe-Dreams.htm

from a U.S. perspective - counter to the TransCanada commissioned "Perryman Group Study", per claims made by TransCanada Corporation and the American Petroleum Institute, an independent report from Cornell University's Global Labour Institute:

It is unfortunate that the numbers generated by TransCanada, the industry, and the Perryman study have been subject to so little scrutiny, because they clearly inflate the projections for the numbers of direct, indirect, and long-term induced jobs that KXL might expect to create. What is being offered by the proponents is advocacy to build support for KXL, rather than serious research aimed to inform public debate and responsible decision making. By repeating inflated numbers, the supporters of KXL approval are doing an injustice to the American public in that expectations are raised for jobs that simply cannot be met. These numbers—hundreds of thousands of jobs!—then get packaged as if KXL were a major jobs program capable of registering some kind of significant impact on unemployment levels and the overall economy. This is plainly untrue.

» The industry’s US jobs claims are linked to a $7 billion KXL project budget. However, the budget for KXL that will have a bearing on US jobs figures is dramatically lower—only around $3 to $4 billion. A lower project budget means fewer jobs.

» The project will create no more than 2,500-4,650 temporary direct construction jobs for two years, according to TransCanada’s own data supplied to the State Department.

» The company’s claim that KXL will create 20,000 direct construction and manufacturing jobs in the U.S is not substantiated.

» The industry’s claim that KXL will create 119,000 total jobs (direct, indirect, and induced) is based on a flawed and poorly documented study commissioned by TransCanada (The Perryman Group study). Perryman wrongly includes over $1 billion in spending and over 10,000 person-years of employment for a section of the Keystone project in Kansas and Oklahoma that is not part of KXL and has already been built.

» KXL will not be a major source of US jobs, nor will it play any substantial role at all in putting Americans back to work. Even if the Perryman figures were accurate, and all of the workers for the next phase of the project were hired immediately, the US seasonally adjusted unemployment rate would remain at 9.1%—exactly where it is now.

[waldo]

The number of jobs Keystone will create depends on who you ask with 2500 being the low end estimate.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/a/Are-Keystone-Pipeline-Jobs-Estimates-Just-Pipe-Dreams.htm

U.S. State Department: The Keystone Pipeline Would Not Have A Significant Impact On Long-Term Employment.

Regarding employment, the construction of the Keystone XL pipeline would likely create several thousand temporary jobs associated with construction; however, the project would not have a significant impact on long-term employment in the United States. While some reports have suggested there could be over 100,000 direct and indirect jobs created by the pipeline, this inflated number appears to be a misinterpretation of one of the economic analyses prepared on the pipeline. Based on the amount of money the applicant projects it would spend on labor in building the pipeline, and the number of construction crews likely to be used in constructing the pipeline, the final EIS estimated there would be approximately 5,000 to 6,000 direct construction jobs in the United States that would last for the two years that it would take to build the pipeline.

[waldo]

The number of jobs Keystone will create depends on who you ask with 2500 being the low end estimate.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/a/Are-Keystone-Pipeline-Jobs-Estimates-Just-Pipe-Dreams.htm

TransCanada revised it's own preliminary account/estimate... the flawed one with artificially inflated numbers... the flawed estimates that still get used today. In response to having it's own initial Keystone jobs report severely trashed & debunked, TransCanada came back with a revised report stating that: "the northern portion of the pipeline will support 9000 American jobs through early 2015". Lil' difference there, hey?

[jasonwi1]

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