Which crime is worse...

[Signals.Cpl]

They should be pretty harsh just because it's wrong. But, of course they should not act to prevent women from reporting rapes. So the punishment should only ensue if it is proven that the woman lied.

I am 100% with you here. If a women genuinely believes that was raped by a man but it turns out it was someone else that is one thing and the courts should do everything in their power to clear the problem, if a women says she was raped but in reality it was a lie she should suffer the consequences for 1) destroying a man's life and 2) for screwing over every real rape victim.

For example, there was a (black) guy on death row in the US for raping a (white) woman. DNA later proved that he could not have done it. But there was no indication the woman lied. She just didn't get a good look at him, or possibly the police pushed her to be more certain than she was or even she can't tell one black man from another. None of those are reasons to prosecute the woman (police may be a different matter).

I agree.

But here's another example - at the university of Colorado, a woman charged a co-worker with rape. It came out that she had consensual sex with him, but didn't want her boyfriend to believe she did. Never the less, the co-worker was fired while the woman retained her job because she had "emotional problems." Another example: a woman who rear ended another driver claimed he raped her. He was a big biker looking guy. Turns out he's a devout Christian and she made it up just to avoid having to pay for the accident. She was not charged, but she certainly should have been.

Again I agree with this as well, if a women says she was raped and it turns out she lied then throw he in jail for the same length of time as a rapist gets. If a women mistakes the identity of the rapist she should not be held accountable but there should be an investigation as to the conduct of the prosecution and the police as to wether they conducted themselves properly or not.

[WIP]

Yeah, I acknowledged that I had posed the question clumsily. It is meant to include the repercussions for the person accused if found guilty.

Some, like WIP, would rather spend 10 - 15 years in the can for something they didn't do than be raped.

Not me.

But I'm a man. A woman may think differently.

The intent of the OP was not to make light of rape, rather to suggest that the false accusation be regarded more seriously than it seems to be.

Clown here!.....since you invited a response elsewhere I thought I'd check in and see how things are going with spinning your way out of self-created mess. If I said 'I would rather spend 10 to 15 years in jail rather than be raped' would that be wrong? Not only would "a woman may think differently" a hell of a lot of men would think differently also if that was the choice presented.

[Guest]

No mess.

Like I said, not me.

If you would, that's up to you.

[BC_chick]

Unless I missed something on this thread, I think I was the one who brought up the topic of of "10-15 years". Since that length of sentence is now being used as the alternative to being 'raped' I would like to clarify something.

I was comparing worst possible sentence vs. worst type of rape.

First time aggravated sexual assault is 5 years. You would have to be a repeat offender with a history of violent rape to get 10-15 years. Or else there would have to be extending circumstances such as kidnapping/torture/attempted murder and so on.

You can't really compare "rape" to "10-15 years in jail". Most false-rape accusations are instances where the 'victim' knows the perpetrator to some extent. The sentencing is never 10-15 years on something like that.

Of course I'll forego the 10-15 too if the other option is waking up to Assange raping me when I fall asleep after consensual sex with him.

But you have to make a fair comparison. Date rape or a couple of months in jail? Being thrown in the bushes with a gun to your head or 5 years in jail? Being kidnapped, raped and someone attempting to kill you or 10-15 years in jail?

Edited February 9, 2013 by BC_chick

[Guest American Woman]

As I pointed out, there's also becoming pregnant, getting a life time STD, and the long lasting emotional trauma. All very real in some instances of rape. I know of a woman who was raped and her husband accepted the child, but not all husbands do.

[Argus]

Does the devastation of being imprisoned compare to having to endure rape? Unless you get raped in prison NO!

The reaction of victims of rape is widely divergent. Some, as noted, are traumatized for life and need therapy. Some shrug it off as one bad event and get on with life, hardly bothered more than any other victim of one-time violence.

You don't ever get on with life while you're in prison and your family and friends have recoiled from you as a rapist.

[Argus]

Since I, like most men, have never had to experience rape, I don't have a testimonial or personal story to tell on the subject; but there are others who do. This would be a good place to start if you want to educate yourself a little on the subject: Dancing In The Darkness: Survivor's stories

I recall there was a huge child porn investigation a couple of years ago. The police arrested and charged a senior military officer in Europe (mistakenly) and he wound up committing suicide due to the shame. You can match horrific individual stories all day long and it won't make one worse than the other.

[cybercoma]

The reaction of victims of rape is widely divergent. Some, as noted, are traumatized for life and need therapy. Some shrug it off as one bad event and get on with life, hardly bothered more than any other victim of one-time violence.

You don't ever get on with life while you're in prison and your family and friends have recoiled from you as a rapist.

Regardless, sentencing is not particularly based on the reactions of the victim(s) to the event.

[Argus]

Regardless, sentencing is not particularly based on the reactions of the victim(s) to the event.

The discussion was comparing how awful one is with how awful the other is. If that's the basis for sentencing then it should be considered.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Argus

[WIP]

The reaction of victims of rape is widely divergent. Some, as noted, are traumatized for life and need therapy. Some shrug it off as one bad event and get on with life, hardly bothered more than any other victim of one-time violence.

And how are you going to set a standard that sentencing and awards to the victim depends on the degree that the victim is traumatized?

Did it occur to you that the different reactions of rape victims may be due to personality or cultural issues - especially "slut-shaming" where a lot of young women even today may have internalized the message that they are to blame if they are raped or sexually assaulted.

You don't ever get on with life while you're in prison and your family and friends have recoiled from you as a rapist.

No! That's right. Someone falsely accused, convicted and incarcerated on any charge...it doesn't have to be a false allegation of rape....is going to be traumatized. I'm not questioning that! What I am questioning is this claim that the false accusation of rape is just as damaging as being raped. And what bothers me most about this line of thinking is that making penalties for false accusation more extreme is going to take us back to the good old days when girls who were raped said nothing afterword, because of fear of how their families would react and how their personal lives would be put under the microscope in court. If we add the risk of a long prison sentence if the charges can't be proven, then it's back to the days when girls were mostly paranoid and most guys thought with a few drinks, they could get away with anything because there were no consequences to face afterwards.

I recall there was a huge child porn investigation a couple of years ago. The police arrested and charged a senior military officer in Europe (mistakenly) and he wound up committing suicide due to the shame. You can match horrific individual stories all day long and it won't make one worse than the other.

And that military officer wasn't physically damaged by his false incarceration, as happens to many women during a violent sexual assault. Nor did he become pregnant or contract an STD from that false accusation. So, let's get real here! Loss of honour due to false accusation is serious enough to cause someone to lose hope and commit suicide; but I'm still not going to take your leap of logic that this means a man being falsely accused of rape is equal to a woman being raped! I think this is where a lot of guys have to think a little bit harder and try to put themselves in someone else's shoes and try to understand how the world may look from that pov.....it's usually called empathy, and that's what I'm asking for here, because I usually hear from guys who have little if any concern for these sorts of harassment and public safety issues that women may see as personally threatening or at least limiting their freedom of movement in public.

[Guest American Woman]

The discussion was comparing how awful one is with how awful the other is. If that's the basis for sentencing then it should be considered.

Odd, coming from someone who seems to equate sentencing with how great of a risk one is to society. Who do you think poses a greater risk of repeat offenses - a rapist who gets away with it or a woman who accuses a man of raping her and gets away with it?

Edited February 9, 2013 by American Woman

[Bonam]

Odd, coming from someone who seems to equate sentencing with how great of a risk one is to society. Who do you think poses a greater risk of repeat offenses - a rapist who gets away with it or a woman who [falsely] accuses a man of raping her and gets away with it?

Based on the information provided in the question, I'd say both are probably quite likely to offend again, it's in their nature.

[Guest American Woman]

Based on the information provided in the question, I'd say both are probably quite likely to offend again, it's in their nature.

Perhaps I didn't word it well - a rapist who goes undetected/unpunished can keep causing harm. A woman who falsely cries rape doesn't go undetected, she's put herself out there, and she's only a threat when she makes the accusation. A rapist is a threat, whether he's been accused or not, and if he goes unpunished, is more likely to cause more unreported rapes than a woman who falsely cries rape and gets away with it is likely to commit the crime a second - or third, etc. - time. How many instances are there of women falsely making accusations of rape multiple times vs. multiple rapes by a single rapist?

Edited February 9, 2013 by American Woman

[Bonam]

Perhaps I didn't word it well - a rapist who goes undetected/unpunished can keep causing harm. A woman who falsely cries rape doesn't go undetected, she's put herself out there, and she's only a threat when she makes the accusation. A rapist is a threat, whether he's been accused or not, and if he goes unpunished, is more likely to cause more unreported rapes than a woman who falsely cries rape and gets away with it is likely to commit the crime the crime a second time. How many instances are there of women falsely making accusations of rape multiple times vs. multiple rapes by a single rapist?

I'm not sure, haven't seen any data on that. False accusations of rape are generally not a media worthy event and are subject to fewer studies and less research compared to rapes. But I would not be surprised if there are in fact a substantial amount of women that falsely accuse someone of rape, or threaten to accuse them of rape to get their way, on a regular basis.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not sure, haven't seen any data on that. False accusations of rape are generally not a media worthy event and are subject to fewer studies and less research compared to rapes. But I would not be surprised if there are in fact a substantial amount of women that falsely accuse someone of rape, or threaten to accuse them of rape to get their way, on a regular basis.

Threatening to accuse someone of rape is not comparable to being raped. Rapists don't "threaten," they do. In other words, one rapist can do more harm to more women while on the loose than one woman who accuses one man of rape can do. She can only actually accuse one man at a time, while a rapist can rape several women. Which is the greater threat to society/the greater number?

False accusations of rape certainly have been a media worthy event - as well they should be; but I'm sure there are accusations that go unreported, as rapes go unreported, too.

[Guest]

What I am questioning is this claim that the false accusation of rape is just as damaging as being raped. And what bothers me most about this line of thinking is that making penalties for false accusation more extreme is going to take us back to the good old days when girls who were raped said nothing afterword, because of fear of how their families would react and how their personal lives would be put under the microscope in court. If we add the risk of a long prison sentence if the charges can't be proven, then it's back to the days when girls were mostly paranoid and most guys thought with a few drinks, they could get away with anything because there were no consequences to face afterwards.

So you're saying that someone should be allowed to destroy someone else's life in order to save themselves grief from a cockolded husband because of the potential effects on others in the future?

I just can't see it myself.

Edited February 10, 2013 by bcsapper

[cybercoma]

Why is that whenever someone says "so you're saying...." whatever follows it is never what the other person was saying?

[Guest]

Why is that whenever someone says "so you're saying...." whatever follows it is never what the other person was saying?

And what bothers me most about this line of thinking is that making penalties for false accusation more extreme is going to take us back to the good old days when girls who were raped said nothing afterword, because of fear of how their families would react and how their personal lives would be put under the microscope in court.

Do you need it to be word for word, or can you think for yourself?

[Guest]

Why is that whenever someone says "so you're saying...." whatever follows it is never what the other person was saying?

Of course, looking back, as one who is accused of being a "rape defender", I do see your point.

[WIP]

Why is that whenever someone says "so you're saying...." whatever follows it is never what the other person was saying?

If someone lit a match, there would be enough straw men burning to set the whole forest on fire!

[Guest]

If someone lit a match, there would be enough straw men burning to set the whole forest on fire!

Rape defender here! I see you finally got something right.

[WIP]

So you're saying that someone should be allowed to destroy someone else's life in order to save themselves grief from a cockolded husband because of the potential effects on others in the future?

Of course, looking back, as one who is accused of being a "rape defender", I do see your point.

You set up a false equivalency between rape and the accusation of rape as being equal in terms of damage and consequences to the individual. And neither you or Bonam have defended that point very well, if at all! My point to both of you is that rape is a greater evil for a number of reasons already listed, and the possibility of a false accusation should not be used to shut down investigations or intimidate women into remaining silent. So, the police and the courts should take the charges seriously until they can determine that they are lacking evidence; while many cases of sexual assault do not leave conclusive physical evidence behind. Should a woman be more concerned about a harsh sentence (equal to committing rape in your system) than making sure that the rapist or sexual offender is charged, so that he doesn't repeat the same offenses again with other women?

To me, the answer is obvious! False prosecution cannot be considered as serious or as damaging as actually being raped! That is just totally ridiculous. And most of the issues regarding the false rape accusation could be dealt with by preventing the media from publishing names and identities as soon as someone is charged. And this is no different than any other false accusation.

Edited February 10, 2013 by WIP

[Guest]

That has nothing to do with the quote. You said this:

And what bothers me most about this line of thinking is that making penalties for false accusation more extreme is going to take us back to the good old days when girls who were raped said nothing afterword, because of fear of how their families would react and how their personal lives would be put under the microscope in court.

Which I interpreted to mean that you considered a false accusation of rape worth treating lightly if there was any threat that a significant punishment might deter future rape victims from coming forward. I said I didn't agree. In my own words. Do the two not jibe? Too harsh?

That would be the straw man to which you are referring.

Do you consider your "rape defender" comment to be justified in the context of the argument as a whole. I would say that you are the one with the bigger straw man here.

You said this above:

...and the possibility of a false accusation should not be used to shut down investigations or intimidate women into remaining silent.

And I agree completely. I don't think the two (treating false accusations of rape as seriously as I think they should be treated, and allowing women the full force of the law and the courts to deal with a genuine allegation) are mutually exclusive, and if the system is such that that might happen, then the system has to be changed. I did bring this up earlier in the thread. I think it was to American Woman, regarding a discussion with my adult daughter.

[WIP]

That has nothing to do with the quote. You said this:

Which I interpreted to mean that you considered a false accusation of rape worth treating lightly if there was any threat that a significant punishment might deter future rape victims from coming forward. I said I didn't agree. In my own words. Do the two not jibe? Too harsh?

That would be the straw man to which you are referring.

Do you consider your "rape defender" comment to be justified in the context of the argument as a whole. I would say that you are the one with the bigger straw man here.

Yes, and I wanted to find out whether you were doing it consciously or just tone deaf to the impacts that an actual rape would have on someone's life. There are a number of subtle right wing reactionary strategies at work regarding many social issues. For example, banning abortion is scripted around protecting life; opponents to racial or gender quotas call them discriminatory, and give no credence to actual disparities in the workforce; opponents of feminism have contrived two separate forms of feminism: "gender feminism" and "equity feminism" to attack changes to employment or family law that they see as threatening. So, when someone comes on with an argument that rape and the accusation of rape are equal, I want to know where they coming from and how seriously they've thought it out before hand, or what their possible ideological sources are.

[Guest]

I immediately clarified my argument, after a couple of posters pointed out the clumsiness of my OP, to state that I meant the consequences of a false accusation, where it is not found to be false. In other words, and most basically put, spending time in jail for a rape you did not commit is comparable to being raped. To me it is worse, to you it is not.

That said, where a false accusation is found out, it ought to be treated more seriously than it seems to be.

I did not defend rape. I am so pro choice you would argue against me on it, and have only women in my immediate life, such that I became a feminist a long time ago.

Edited February 10, 2013 by bcsapper