Which crime is worse...

[Guest]

Double post. Pushed the quote button instead of the edit button

Edited February 10, 2013 by bcsapper

[Guest American Woman]

I immediately clarified my argument, after a couple of posters pointed out the clumsiness of my OP, to state that I meant the consequences of a false accusation, where it is not found to be false. In other words, and most basically put, spending time in jail for a crime you did not commit is comparable to being raped. To me it is worse, to you it is not.

That said, where a false accusation is found out, it ought to be treated more seriously than it seems to be.

I did not defend rape. I am so pro choice you would argue against me on it, and have only women in my immediate life, such that I became a feminist a long time ago.

I will back you up here. This is exactly the way it is. You have in no way been "defending rape," and I feel the accusation was unwarranted and way off base.

It was in discussion with me that you brought your daughter's observation up, and as I said, I hadn't thought of it prior to that - and as I pointed out at the time, I thought it was a good observation.

[cybercoma]

Of course, looking back, as one who is accused of being a "rape defender", I do see your point.

Row after row of strawmen on this forum from all sides.

[Guest]

I will back you up here. This is exactly the way it is. You have in no way been "defending rape," and I feel the accusation was unwarranted and way off base.

It was in discussion with me that you brought your daughter's observation up, and as I said, I hadn't thought of it prior to that - and as I pointed out at the time, I thought it was a good observation.

Thank you for that.

[Guest American Woman]

Thank you for that.

You're welcome. It's the truth - and it needed to be said in light of the unfounded accusations being thrown your way.

I do understand where you are coming from, though I don't agree with you regarding the "worse" part- but I do think purposely falsely accusing someone of rape is a terrible crime. It most definitely can ruin lives - and has.

Edited February 10, 2013 by American Woman

[WIP]

I immediately clarified my argument, after a couple of posters pointed out the clumsiness of my OP, to state that I meant the consequences of a false accusation, where it is not found to be false. In other words, and most basically put, spending time in jail for a rape you did not commit is comparable to being raped. To me it is worse, to you it is not.

That said, where a false accusation is found out, it ought to be treated more seriously than it seems to be.

I did not defend rape. I am so pro choice you would argue against me on it, and have only women in my immediate life, such that I became a feminist a long time ago.

If I may interrupt this latest love fest, I still find it objectionable that you are still claiming that a false accusation of rape is equal to rape. You can argue for treating cases of false accusation more seriously without diminishing the impacts that rape have on the victim and those close to her...or him...sometimes happens too. The impact of false accusation are not equal or equivalent to: being physically injured during rape, contracting STD's including AIDS, and being threatened with death, and having to beg and/or negotiate to stay alive....as many rapists don't think through full consequences of their action and haven't thought through whether or not they need to kill their victims to avoid arrest.

So, let's put more flesh on the bones of "it ought to be treated more seriously" and tell me whether you are arguing for more punitive actions for false accusation....which would include cases where the victim was unable to prove that they did not provide consent to the accused? Anyone who argues for that sort of approach is taking us right back to where we were 40 or 50 years ago, when very few rape incidents were reported, fewer went to court, and fewer still - rapists were prosecuted in court.

[Guest]

If I may interrupt this latest love fest, I still find it objectionable that you are still claiming that a false accusation of rape is equal to rape. You can argue for treating cases of false accusation more seriously without diminishing the impacts that rape have on the victim and those close to her...or him...sometimes happens too. The impact of false accusation are not equal or equivalent to: being physically injured during rape, contracting STD's including AIDS, and being threatened with death, and having to beg and/or negotiate to stay alive....as many rapists don't think through full consequences of their action and haven't thought through whether or not they need to kill their victims to avoid arrest.

So, let's put more flesh on the bones of "it ought to be treated more seriously" and tell me whether you are arguing for more punitive actions for false accusation....which would include cases where the victim was unable to prove that they did not provide consent to the accused? Anyone who argues for that sort of approach is taking us right back to where we were 40 or 50 years ago, when very few rape incidents were reported, fewer went to court, and fewer still - rapists were prosecuted in court.

I don't care what you find objectionable. I made myself pretty clear, and you've made it pretty clear you will interpret in whatever manner you please, so, object away.

[WIP]

One Billion Rising unites against gender-based violence

Rallies are being held in Canada and 200 other countries worldwide as part of One Billion Rising — a movement calling for the end of violence against women and girls.

Eve Ensler, author of the

Vagina Monologues

and founder of the organization V-Day started the global One Billion Rising movement based on the estimate in a United Nations report that said one in three women will be beaten or raped during their lifetime, meaning one billion worldwide.

V-day holds various events throughout the year, but Feb. 14 marks their attempt at a single day of action globally.

Women and men have been invited to “dance, rise and strike” to raise the issue of gender-based violence, while also celebrating the work being done globally to counter it.

Organizers say that thousands participated in the event, dancing in the Democratic Republic of Congo — a country reported as the

worst place on Earth to be a woman

.

I'm not sure how accurate the one billion women 'will be raped or beaten during their lifetime' number is, but even if it's one tenth that number, that's still 100 million! I was just curious when I saw this story yesterday if there are a billion, or 100 million, or a million false rape convictions to match it!

[Guest]

Yeah, you should have posted this in my "Which crime happens the most often" thread. It would have had some relevance.

[Muddy]

Please allow me to look at this from another angle. There have been times when a Gal says she was raped that male family members have sought out the accused and took out instant justice.Something that all of us might secretly applaud. Of course those male family members will be brought to justice. If they are that passionate about defending their loved one they will take the punishment like true men.

But what if the Gal was angry at a fella and lied. The false accusation now has multiple victims where there was once none except a women scorned.

Crying rape falsely can ruin lives.

Please do not think that I am in any way not encouraging Gals to report rape and see justice done. I fully understand that being raped is a life sentence to a women.

[Argus]

If I may interrupt this latest love fest, I still find it objectionable that you are still claiming that a false accusation of rape is equal to rape.]

I'd argue it is worse. The rape is done with in a short time, usually doesn't leave much in the way of physical injuries, and can be kept quiet if the victim so desires. The other is very public, with everyone pointing and staring and recoiling from the victim. It likely would cost the victim his marriage, his job, and quite possibly years of his life in prison, where he would be exposed to further violence and terror.

Most people would rather be raped than go to prison for rape. Especially given your chance of being raped in prison is fairly high anyway...

[Muddy]

I'd argue it is worse. The rape is done with in a short time, usually doesn't leave much in the way of physical injuries, and can be kept quiet if the victim so desires. The other is very public, with everyone pointing and staring and recoiling from the victim. It likely would cost the victim his marriage, his job, and quite possibly years of his life in prison, where he would be exposed to further violence and terror.

Most people would rather be raped than go to prison for rape. Especially given your chance of being raped in prison is fairly high anyway...

That is a great post. Most people would not think of it in that perspective.

[Guest American Woman]

Most people would rather be raped than go to prison for rape. Especially given your chance of being raped in prison is fairly high anyway...

And your source for that claim is ... ?

[WIP]

I'd argue it is worse. The rape is done with in a short time, usually doesn't leave much in the way of physical injuries, and can be kept quiet if the victim so desires. The other is very public, with everyone pointing and staring and recoiling from the victim. It likely would cost the victim his marriage, his job, and quite possibly years of his life in prison, where he would be exposed to further violence and terror.

Most people would rather be raped than go to prison for rape. Especially given your chance of being raped in prison is fairly high anyway...

This is just too stupid for words! A prison rape is still a rape, not part of that category of false accusation of rape anyway. And he would not be raped in prison because he was a rapist anyway, it would happen because he was perceived as weak, low status, or because of racial or ethnic reasons; so it still has no part of the same conversation.

Whatever shame a man might feel for enduring false accusation of any crime for that matter, pales in comparison to what someone....usually a woman or girl, would feel being forced into sex against their will, often being violently assaulted first for anything regarded as uncooperative....and this happens in those date-rape cases too that some guys just want to blow off as the guy going a little bit too far. Many rape victims are physically injured during the assault, sometimes with permanent injuries that require surgery afterwards. And then, we have to examine the psychological traumas that accompany the physical injuries and fear of death that accompany a rape assault. Claiming an equivalence between rape and rape accusation is similar to the anti-circumcision advocates who claim male circumcision is equally harmful and as traumatic as female genital mutilation; and every guy who's been circumcised (including your's truly) knows that is complete bullshit also!

What you and others are doing, including the OP and following posts on this thread is legitimizing rape culture by presenting rape as something of a minor inconvenience for women. Some the statistics I've come across since misogyny went into the doldrums a week or so ago are: 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime, 9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003, 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. In 2003, 1 in every ten rape victims were male. 15% of sexual assault and rape victims are under age 12.............more details at http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

Effects of Rape

victims of sexual assault are:

3 times more likely to suffer from depression.

6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.

13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.

26 times more likely to abuse drugs.

4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

I'd be interested in seeing how the stats for the falsely accused match up! And worth noting a point I made previously that the OP considers trivial: numbers of falsely accused pale in comparison to the numbers who are victims of rape, so the size and scale of the problem also makes it more pressing concern than false accusation....which as we have noted time and time again, could easily be dealt with by keeping court proceedings confidential until after the trial....and that would be the case for all of those other examples of false accusation. For what it's worth, false accusation of murder is certainly more serious than false accusation of rape!

Another interesting point about how the social climate normalizes rape and sexual assault:

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.

They really do. In psychological study, the profiling, the studies, it comes out again and again.

Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape...............................

http://dbzer0.com/blog/feminists-dont-think-all-men-are-rapists-rapists-do

Frat Survey Asks: ‘If You Could Rape Someone, Who Would it Be?’

Rape in the US military: America's dirty little secret

from the U.K. SUN: Rape simulator sold on Amazon

Players start the game stalking and sexually assaulting a mother on an

underground station.

They then move on to attack her two young daughters – described in

the game as "virgin schoolgirls".

And reviews describe "tears glistening in the young girl's eyes" as

one is attacked.

Players can also enter 'freeform mode' where they join up with other players

to gang rape women.

And incredibly players are rewarded for forcing victims to have abortions.

One review said: "If she does become pregnant you're supposed to force

her to get an abortion, otherwise she gets more and more visibly pregnant

each time you have sex.

"If you allow the child to be born then the woman will throw you in front

of a train!"

The game was created by the Japanese production house Illusion, also

responsible for the games "Battle Raper" and "Artificial Girl".

mpu

A spokesman for the company said: "We believe there is no problem with

the software, which has cleared the domestic ratings of an ethics watchdog

body."

Amazon has now withdrawn the game after complaints from users –

deeming it to be inappropriate.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2235915/Rape-simulator-sold-on-Amazon.html#ixzz2Lka7PugT

At this point, it's worth pausing and asking if all of you who advocate for complete open and uncensored approach to porn are also okay with this?

And I'll end with this link:

A female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire

Most of these links came from a quick search of Reddit, and I could have filled a whole page if I had the time or inclination; but I think the basic point that rape IS more serious than false criminal accusations is conclusive, and attempts to minimize the effects of rape and attack the motives and lifestyle of the accused are evidence that our society at large, which doesn't like hearing about it for many individual reasons, is either directly or accidentally fostering a rape culture that we thought was ending with reforms 30 to 40 years ago, but is still with us and has a number of reactionary forces at work trying to bring it back with a vengeance!

[Guest]

What you and others are doing, including the OP and following posts on this thread is legitimizing rape culture by presenting rape as something of a minor inconvenience for women.

For some reason you have been misrepresenting my OP, my other posts on here, and other posters' posts on here as:

" presenting rape as something of a minor inconvenience for women."

I don't know why you would do that.

Do you really think that a prison sentence, losing your family, job, friends, etc, is a minor inconvenience? Because if I was to apply the same logic to your posts that would be a reasonable conclusion.

Edited February 23, 2013 by bcsapper

[Guest American Woman]

For some reason you have been misrepresenting my OP, my other posts on here, and other posters' posts on here as:

" presenting rape as something of a minor inconvenience for women."]

As I've said, you haven't done that - but Argus certainly did: "The rape is done with in a short time, usually doesn't leave much in the way of physical injuries, and can be kept quiet if the victim so desires." No big deal, from the sound of it.

[Guest]

Yes, I agree. Argus will qualify that if he wishes. I certainly had to do that with my OP, and I don't see having to do that as a problem. It's a very sensitive subject.

I can't imagine Argus actually thinks that rape is no big deal.

[Argus]

Whatever shame a man might feel for enduring false accusation of any crime for that matter, pales in comparison to what someone....usually a woman or girl, would feel being forced into sex against their will,

Really? And you would know this because... ?

Are women who are raped pariahs? Do people spit at them in the street, when they don't assault them? Do they get fired? Do their families and friends abandon them? Do they have to endure lengthy terms in prison amongst violent criminals with assault or even death a daily possibility?

What exactly is so shameful in this day and age about a woman being raped anyway? This isn't the fifties! Yes, it's horrible to endure any kind of violent physical attack, sexual or otherwise, but get real. Rape is not a 'fate worse than death' and that kind of reasoning is antiquated.

[Argus]

As I've said, you haven't done that - but Argus certainly did: "The rape is done with in a short time, usually doesn't leave much in the way of physical injuries, and can be kept quiet if the victim so desires." No big deal, from the sound of it.

In comparison to prison, it would appear to be the lessor horror. That does not make it 'no big deal', and no one has suggested so.

[Argus]

As I've said, you haven't done that - but Argus certainly did:

No, he certainly didn't. You are simply operating in your almost perpetually self-righteous mode.

[Guest American Woman]

No, he certainly didn't. You are simply operating in your almost perpetually self-righteous mode.

And what mode was bcsapper operating in when he said "I agree?"

And no, compared to prison it isn't a "lesser horror," and since I've already addressed the whys at length, I won't repeat myself again; so with that, I'm still (self-righteously, apparently) waiting for the source for your claim that "most people would rather be raped than go to prison for rape."

Edited February 23, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest]

I said that "I can't imagine Argus actually thinks that rape is no big deal."

By that I meant that he did what I did in my OP. Posted something about a sensitive subject without making sure it said exactly what he meant to say.

I reiterate: I can't imagine Argus actually thinks that rape is no big deal.

[Guest American Woman]

I said that "I can't imagine Argus actually thinks that rape is no big deal."

By that I meant that he did what I did in my OP. Posted something about a sensitive subject without making sure it said exactly what he meant to say.

I reiterate: I can't imagine Argus actually thinks that rape is no big deal.

I never said he thinks it's no big deal, either. I said he came across that way. You agreed.

Having said that, I'm still waiting for his source .... and I have the feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time.

[Guest]

I never said he thinks it's no big deal, either. I said he came across that way. You agreed.

Having said that, I'm still waiting for his source .... and I have the feeling I'm going to be waiting a long time.

I don't think there can be a source. I sure would rather be raped than spend (let's say 8 years for the sake of argument) in jail for a rape I did not commit, along with the concomitant loss of one's previous life that would no doubt accompany that, but I bet no survey has ever been done.

Edit> I just did it again. Made a post, looked at it, and thought, maybe that's the wrong thing to say. So I edited it. It happens. Best intentions notwithstanding.

Edited February 23, 2013 by bcsapper

[Guest American Woman]

Are women who are raped pariahs? Do people spit at them in the street, when they don't assault them? Do they get fired? Do their families and friends abandon them?

Surely you know the connotation that rape sometimes carries - the "she asked for it" accusations for a variety of reasons. As for whether or not they get fired, there are other things just as bad. Getting pregnant, for example. That sometimes causes their husband to leave them, too. It sometimes results in people whispering and pointing in public. Getting STD's, possibly AIDS, is also worse than getting fired.

For the record, not all men who are accused of rape are treated the way you describe - some have their family and friends stand behind them, and think that the woman is a b*tch for accusing them. This happens sometimes in actual rape cases, too.

Do they have to endure lengthy terms in prison amongst violent criminals with assault or even death a daily possibility?

That's some prison scenario you're describing. Assault, even death, a daily possibility? For the record, the woman who was raped already faced violence, and often fears it around every corner after having endured it.

What exactly is so shameful in this day and age about a woman being raped anyway? This isn't the fifties!

It's not the Camelot you seem to think it is, either.

Yes, it's horrible to endure any kind of violent physical attack, sexual or otherwise, but get real. Rape is not a 'fate worse than death' and that kind of reasoning is antiquated.

Prison isn't a fate worse than death, either.