The Unnanounced Class War

[Argus]

If free speech, freedom of association, free enterprise, and lobbyist registration law are any indication, it is designed to keep growing and is not corruption at all. The U.S. is far from being one of the "most corrupt countries on earth", but I understand your need to express such hyperbole when faced with the truth about your own nation (federal contracts, provincial bribery, SNC-Lavalin, etc., etc.).

I said in the western world. It's not as bad as Russia and Nigeria... yet. But as corruption becomes routine in all levels of political power that sort of thing tends to spread out and move through society. You can compare it to a few cases in Canada if that makes you feel good but our prohibition on political campaign donations from non voters at the federal level simply means our level of corruption is far, far lower than in the US. And I'm guessing the situation in Quebec is going to lead to that kind of law moving down into the provinces, as well. Though Quebec has always been kind of 'unique' in terms of political corruption in Canada.

This is exactly how the nation was founded....monied land and business owners. More money = more speech...it's not complicated. Americans don't have to live like poor Canadians !

You mean they don't have to live in a country whose government puts their interests first? Apparently not. Then again, neither do Nigerians.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

I said in the western world. It's not as bad as Russia and Nigeria... yet. But as corruption becomes routine in all levels of political power that sort of thing tends to spread out and move through society.

I don't play that "western" or "developed" world shuck and jive. "Corruption" can be found anywhere human beings exist.

You can compare it to a few cases in Canada if that makes you feel good but our prohibition on political campaign donations from non voters at the federal level simply means our level of corruption is far, far lower than in the US.

Oh goody...but why does concrete keep falling on cars ? Not only do you have rampant corruption, but far fewer people are arrested and convicted even when it does exist.

And I'm guessing the situation in Quebec is going to lead to that kind of law moving down into the provinces, as well. Though Quebec has always been kind of 'unique' in terms of political corruption in Canada.

Quebec is the most "Canadian" province...just ask them. Just because you are glued to what happens in the U.S. doesn't diminish the well known corruption in Canadian federal, provincial, and local politics...all the way down to slumming with biker gangs.

You mean they don't have to live in a country whose government puts their interests first? Apparently not. Then again, neither do Nigerians.

Hell no....that's not what government is for. See how long your precious government (and government job) would last without revenue from the private sector.

[Pliny]

Hell no....that's not what government is for. See how long your precious government (and government job) would last without revenue from the private sector.

Which is why government will try and save the private sector by pumping it full of cash,

[Pliny]

The idiocy in question was not capitalism or free enterprise.

-k

Are you sure?

What is it you really want, kimmy? Everyone to believe the people you believe? It doesn't seem you are seeking root causes. It seems you only wish someone be punished. Bear Stearns is gone. Lehman Bros. is gone. Washington Mutual is gone. Countrywide is gone. Granted a few more should be gone too but they got a bailout.

As usual no government regulation stopped this boom - who would want to stop it. All was well. Why should there be a stop to a booming economy and would you wish to be the one to face villification for having brought it all to a stop? As usual, it is only natural market law that will bring the inevitable bust.

You seem to believe that the market creates booms. Only rarely would it ever create a boom. It has growth and corrections over a long term but rarely on an aggregate level over a short term, which describes a boom. What creates booms in today's western economies is monetary and fiscal policy. Governments love to take responsibility for good economic times by touting their good economic policies and under poor economic conditions they generally blame other administrations and their poor economic policies. You seem to suggest irrational exuberance in the market is the sole cause of a boom and government economic policy is irrelevant. You are concentrating on regulation and banking is the most heavily regulated industry in western nations. It is economic policy that is in question.

But in reality, the whole economic system is a house of cards that will inevitably collapse if you have read any history regarding economics and the monetary policy of rulers and governments. We are just repeating past mistakes.

[Argus]

I don't play that "western" or "developed" world shuck and jive. "Corruption" can be found anywhere human beings exist.

Most civilized nations try and limit it as much as possible. Yours legalizes it.

Oh goody...but why does concrete keep falling on cars ?

Quebec is 'distinct'. But I wouldn't be so mocking were I you. America's infrastructure has been lacking maintenance, let alone upgrade spending for many, many years. And things are certain to get worse, not better.

According to the American Society of Civil Engineers, the US needs to spend $2,200bn in the next decade simply to maintain the existing quality of infrastructure. Under the current budget, Washington will spend less than half that amount. It requires a leap of faith to assume it will double, say, rather than fall sharply, when the bipartisan fiscal bargain is struck next year – if indeed it is.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bc6f228e-34c9-11e2-99df-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2LAcsYx41

Just because you are glued to what happens in the U.S. doesn't diminish the well known corruption in Canadian federal, provincial, and local politics...all the way down to slumming with biker gangs.

Canadian corruption is a fraction of that in the US, and you continue to try to compare it to American 'illegal' corruption while ignoring your entirely legal corruption.

Hell no....that's not what government is for. See how long your precious government (and government job) would last without revenue from the private sector.

You seem entirely comfortable, even pugnacious about the fact that your governments neither care about your well-being nor care all that much about the well-being of your country, that they work, in fact, for various oligarchs and corporate entities who are increasingly dispersed around the world.

[Argus]

What is it you really want, kimmy? Everyone to believe the people you believe?

I would suggest that what Kimmy wants is for people who break the law to go to jail, and for government to put in place a system of regulation which prohibits corporations from attaining such massive size and importance to the economy that the government has to step in and save their necks when they do stupid things.

It doesn't seem you are seeking root causes

Root cause is the lack of regulation and lack of oversight. I think that's fairly clear.

As usual no government regulation stopped this boom - who would want to stop it. All was well.

Ponzi schemes are against the law, and their end is inevitable. That's why they should be prohibited.

And yes, government should step in to halt a 'boom' based on fraud which can only end in massive financial disaster.

The Conservatives saw what had happened in the US and they started imposing regulations to stop lenders from engaging in subprime lending, for example, and enhance the security of loans to avoid mass defaults.

And I would point out there were lots of good economic times before Clinton and congress repealed the laws put in place after the lessons learned after the great depression.

[bush_cheney2004]

Most civilized nations try and limit it as much as possible. Yours legalizes it.

If it's legal, what's your problem? Fix the illegal corruption in Canada before worrying so much about what happens legally in another nation. Maybe put somebody in prison after a conviction....what a concept !

Quebec is 'distinct'. But I wouldn't be so mocking were I you. America's infrastructure has been lacking maintenance, let alone upgrade spending for many, many years. And things are certain to get worse, not better.

Quebec is just as much Canada as any other province, and in many ways more. Own it instead of making excuses and pointing at other countries. U.S. infrastructure is crumbling from age, not systemic corruption when it was first built. Next you will tell me about Haliburton while ignoring firms like SNC-Lavalin.

Canadian corruption is a fraction of that in the US, and you continue to try to compare it to American 'illegal' corruption while ignoring your entirely legal corruption.

I'll bet Canadian biker gangs agree with you too.

You seem entirely comfortable, even pugnacious about the fact that your governments neither care about your well-being nor care all that much about the well-being of your country, that they work, in fact, for various oligarchs and corporate entities who are increasingly dispersed around the world.

I am entirely comfortable, as are many Canadians who work for American corporate owned subsidiaries, watch American corporate media, use American corporate internet resources and applications, and consume American corporate products, except for the ones like you who complain about it while doing same.

Edited February 17, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[cybercoma]

government has to step in and save their necks when they do stupid things.

Perhaps it would be great if the government stopped doing this. Maybe the economy needs to be destroyed by contemptuous capitalists, who don't give a crap about taking responsibility for the society within which they operate. Instead of people looking to the government and expecting them to keep these businesses afloat, maybe people need to put the blame squarely on the shoulders of those that are responsible for the economic devastation. Maybe the government bears some responsibility for not limiting the size of these banks and companies, despite monopolies in all places and all times being the end results of capitalist ventures. However, people need to wake up and hold those who cause these problems accountable. Well how do people do that? The only way is through government and in theory the American government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people, for the people." Perhaps that means forcing these irresponsible capitalists to be accountable to the people, as opposed to being bailed-out by the people after they cause them so much harm. Bailing them out is nothing more than a reward for their bad behaviour. Yet, people will criticize the government for not controlling the economy, getting involved, and propping these bad capitalists up when they threaten to bring down the entire economy. Why is it that in a free economy it is those who most vocally support those ideals that will not allow it to fail? They cannot face the reality that capitalism is a total and utter failure unless the government has its thumb on the scale. Unless the government intervenes, capital will be accumulated to the point of monopoly, which then ends the idea of free competition and free markets. Capitalism does not work in practice. Just as people say Communism works only in theory, so too does capitalism only work in theory. In theory there's all kinds of competition and we're all the better because of it. In practice, capitalists must increase efficiency and productivity, they must earn more than their competitors, they must destroy their competition, until they get so big that they're the only player in town. Then it's no longer a free economy. It's no longer capitalism proper. Capitalism does not work without interference. Once we accept that, then it becomes clear that the interference should not be to the benefit of a few wealthy elites. Except in the US, they've bought their way into the halls of power. Government for the people? Has it ever been? It's certainly not today. The government ought to be balancing interests and interfering in ways that promote the greatest good for society as a whole, not the greatest good for the highest bidders. This means busting up monopolies before they get too big, so that there is a free market with more competition. This means ensuring that irresponsible capitalists are not rewarded for their bad behaviours through bailouts, paid for by the people and future generations of the working class tax payers. This means raising the consciousness of the public to put the blame squarely where it belongs when the economy is not doing well and that sure as hell is not with the government.

[cybercoma]

Fix the illegal corruption in Canada before worrying so much about what happens legally in another nation.

Maybe you should PM Greg and ask him to get rid of the US Politics forum then, since we should only talk about what goes on in Canada before discussing US Politics.

[Argus]

If it's legal, what's your problem? Fix the illegal corruption in Canada before worrying so much about what happens legally in another nation.

Your massive level of corruption is indeed your business - until it affects me, and becomes my business.

In 2008 it affected me and my country, and many others. That's why it IS in fact, our business.

U.S. infrastructure is crumbling from age, not systemic corruption when it was first built.

US infrastructure is crumbling from neglect and lack of maintenance, same as those bridges you trotted out in Quebec.

I'll bet Canadian biker gangs agree with you too.

Canadian biker gangs are merely a tiny subsidiary of the massive American organized crime gangs.

I am entirely comfortable, as are many Canadians who work for American corporate owned subsidiaries, watch American corporate media, use American corporate internet resources and applications, and consume American corporate products, except for the ones like you who complain about it while doing same.

My dear boy, most of us have few issues with consuming goods and services supplied by corporate America. But most of us don't want to be ruled by those corporations. You evidently do. Would you care to formulate your reasoning as to why that would be better than a democratic state?

[bush_cheney2004]

Your massive level of corruption is indeed your business - until it affects me, and becomes my business.

In 2008 it affected me and my country, and many others. That's why it IS in fact, our business.

If it affects your nation so much then reduce your interdependence on the U.S. economy and government. I don't give a damn what you do in Canada in this regard. It's still not "your business".

US infrastructure is crumbling from neglect and lack of maintenance, same as those bridges you trotted out in Quebec.

OH, that would explain all the corruption hearings for civil contracts.

Canadian biker gangs are merely a tiny subsidiary of the massive American organized crime gangs.

...and they do pretty well in Canada. I wonder why ?

My dear boy, most of us have few issues with consuming goods and services supplied by corporate America. But most of us don't want to be ruled by those corporations. You evidently do. Would you care to formulate your reasoning as to why that would be better than a democratic state?

Thank you for proving my point and your hypocrisy on this issue. (I am not a "boy".)

Edited February 17, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

If it affects your nation so much then reduce your interdependence on the U.S. economy and government. I don't give a damn what you do in Canada in this regard. It's still not "your business".

My thoughts exactly. As if leaders and citizens of other nations ponder over how their decisions are going to affect Americans - and then act in our best interest...

[Pliny]

I would suggest that what Kimmy wants is for people who break the law to go to jail, and for government to put in place a system of regulation which prohibits corporations from attaining such massive size and importance to the economy that the government has to step in and save their necks when they do stupid things.

It's with a small "k".

If that is true then everyone should be in jail. There is a regulation that applies to you too.

How do corporations get to massive size? There is only one way in a free market to do that and that is to have the support of the people. In a special interest democracy it is done by government fiat and the fascist picking of winners and losers. Making regulations that are impossible for new business to enter the market and provide competition.

Root cause is the lack of regulation and lack of oversight. I think that's fairly clear.

No. The most regulated industry in the US is banking and if the government did just oversee it that would an improvement but they like to play in the game.

Ponzi schemes are against the law, and their end is inevitable. That's why they should be prohibited.

You mean like our healthcare system? Get benefits now - someone else will pay later? Check out what a Ponzi scheme is.

No government that starts a Ponzi scheme will admit it is a Ponzi scheme.

And yes, government should step in to halt a 'boom' based on fraud which can only end in massive financial disaster.

No politician will accept responsibility for ending the party. It has to come to its inevitable an end by running its course and letting the market take all the blame.

The Conservatives saw what had happened in the US and they started imposing regulations to stop lenders from engaging in subprime lending, for example, and enhance the security of loans to avoid mass defaults.

And I would point out there were lots of good economic times before Clinton and congress repealed the laws put in place after the lessons learned after the great depression.

We also didn't have the CRA to deal with and make people unhappy about not receiving mortgages that they would default on. We still have low interest rates that could cause a problem when they start rising.

Yep, lots of booms and busts and wars and welfare since 1913.

[cybercoma]

If it affects your nation so much then reduce your interdependence on the U.S. economy and government.

That's exactly what the federal government claims to be doing by making deals in Asia.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's exactly what the federal government claims to be doing by making deals in Asia.

Great...then some Canadians can whine about the corruption in Asia. They're not happy unless they're whining about something in other nations.

[cybercoma]

Just out of curiosity, are you having trouble reading the title of this forum?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just out of curiosity, are you having trouble reading the title of this forum?

Why are you concerned ? Do you think there are no "classes" in Asia ? Did you read the title of this forum ?

[cybercoma]

I'm just wondering because you keep making those idiotic posts about how Canadians shouldn't discuss American politics.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm just wondering because you keep making those idiotic posts about how Canadians shouldn't discuss American politics.

Canadians should discuss whatever they wish on a forum hosted by potentially corrupt American corporate web services and corrupt American corporate forum engine and corrupt American internet servers/infrastructure and corrupt American search engines.

...and I can post mocking criticism of same.

Any questions ?

Edited February 17, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[kimmy]

As legislated by elected representatives, including President Clinton, but you seem more focused on 'Republicans'. Why ?

I think I explained that quite clearly.

...and the CDS made/lost a lot more money. The engines of enterprise produce more heat than light.

A CDS doesn't produce anything at all. It's a legal scam to make more money off of faulty products that should never have been sold in the first place.

Good, but I had to force that out of you. Why ? Bias...perhaps?

Democrats and Republicans are all to blame for allowing stupid to happen in the first place, but Republicans are the ones promoting flat-out lies about the causes of the housing crisis and promoting the idea that "we have to do stupid again to get America back to work!"

You must be joking. Go do some homework on the Obama administration, Wall Street, and campaign contributions.

Well, they've certainly bought themselves a regulators and a Department of Justice that has refused to punish them, and a Dodd-Frank act that has been watered-down to the point of being virtually useless. I think they've gotten good value for the money they gave the Democrats. Still better than what the Republicans are offering, though.

Then bring charges.

That's not my job, it's the job of government officials who have, to this point, been reluctant to do anything. On the bright side, that is changing. The non-punishment of HSBC and the admission that HSBC is just too big and too important to punish was the straw that broke the camel's back. That fiasco has spurred widespread criticism, public outrage at the inaction of the DoJ, and cost Lanny Breuer his job. They're starting to figure out that the public no longer accepts the rationalizations they're being offered. The civil suit against S&P is no doubt an attempt to convince the public that the DoJ is actually doing something. The video of bank regulators' attempting to answer the question "when was the last time you took a bank to trial?" at last week's hearings went viral on the internet and was laughed at by an awful lot of people, and you can be sure that people high up in the administration are now painfully aware that the public thinks their regulators are, literally, a joke.

Show us the way to TRUTH. JUSTICE, and the CANADIAN WAY !

I thought that "...and Justice for All!" was part of the American Way. "Justice for some; carte blanche for the wealthy" is the sort of thing that the colonists took up arms against way back when.

I wish them well....the lawyers will make a mint.

And they'll be paid from settlements obtained against banks that deserve far worse than what's coming.

Some of Canada's banks took money from TARP just like all the rest. Business as usual. You want a piece of the biggest market on Earth then you must play the game. When I buy and sell stocks, I don't worry about what will happen to the people in Canada who worry so much about what happens in the U.S.A.

I really don't care. As I said, we in Canada are just collateral damage; the real victims are your countrymen.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

I think I explained that quite clearly.

The U.S. legal framework is what it is...sorry if it doesn't meet with your approval in Canada.....not.

A CDS doesn't produce anything at all. It's a legal scam to make more money off of faulty products that should never have been sold in the first place.

There are wealth management products that make CDS trivial and are very much alive and well, staying one step ahead of taxes and government....all perfectly legal.

Democrats and Republicans are all to blame for allowing stupid to happen in the first place, but Republicans are the ones promoting flat-out lies about the causes of the housing crisis and promoting the idea that "we have to do stupid again to get America back to work!"

It America's choice but just your opinion....guess which one will carry the day?

Well, they've certainly bought themselves a regulators and a Department of Justice that has refused to punish them, and a Dodd-Frank act that has been watered-down to the point of being virtually useless. I think they've gotten good value for the money they gave the Democrats. Still better than what the Republicans are offering, though.

Again...DEmocrats and Republicans are still Americans. A divide and conquer strategy will not work.

That's not my job, it's the job of government officials who have, to this point, been reluctant to do anything.

I agree...hell...it's not even my job and I live there. Relax and count your money.

I thought that "...and Justice for All!" was part of the American Way. "Justice for some; carte blanche for the wealthy" is the sort of thing that the colonists took up arms against way back when.

Yes...the colonists and their slaves / indentured servants. How do you like us now ?

I really don't care. As I said, we in Canada are just collateral damage; the real victims are your countrymen.

If you say so.....I understand that America is more entertaining than anything in Canada, but you only get to watch !

[eyeball]

If it affects your nation so much then reduce your interdependence on the U.S. economy and government.

Go tell that to Mosaddegh and Saddam.

[kimmy]

You aren't asking a fundamental question, "WHY?" Or perhaps you are and answering it with "Greed"

Everyone is looking for opportunity and when they find it they will take advantage of it. Wall St. must have seen an opportunity. While it is true they stupidly did all you say. You have to understand the psychology behind it. If the door on an armoured truck flew open and money started spewing forth all over the ground what do you expect people would do? Most of them would start scooping up as much as they could carry and run off with if they figured no one was keeping tabs on them. Would you just stand there or stop people from scooping up the money or scoop up some money yourself with the idea of returning it to the armoured car company (Maybe there would be a reward?)? What would be the right thing to do?

Wall Street banks didn't do the right thing, most certainly, and they did all you say. Was it greed? From where did the opportunity arise? What did they see? Did they see that government wasn't punishing anyone for creating sub-prime mortgages? What did they see?

It sounds like you're arguing that the banks did what they did because there was nothing stopping them.

Congratulations, it seems that you grasp the necessity of regulation after all. Good for you. Maybe there's hope for you yet.

-k

[kimmy]

It America's choice but just your opinion....guess which one will carry the day?

Again...DEmocrats and Republicans are still Americans. A divide and conquer strategy will not work.

I'm not trying to divide and conquer anything. The division is between Americans who continue to swallow the BS being promoted by the banks and their political allies, and Americans who no longer accept that BS. I am cheerleading for the good-guys from the sidelines.

But at this point you're just trolling for attention here.

-k

[cybercoma]

At this point?