2.5 billion dollars for a new bridge...

[Guest]

Just don't use it in the winter. In Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/12/20/bc-port-mann-ice.html

[Bonam]

Engineering fail.

[Guest Derek L]

Well at least it’s a tolled bridge…..

[bush_cheney2004]

Who approved the cable-stayed design for a northern latitude bridge ? There was ample evidence of icing hazards on previous projects in North America and Europe. The bridge will have to be closed periodically or moved to San Diego.

[Canuckistani]

Who approved the cable-stayed design for a northern latitude bridge ? There was ample evidence of icing hazards on previous projects in North America and Europe. The bridge will have to be closed periodically or moved to San Diego.

We have at least two cable stayed bridges I can think of. But the cables are on the outside, not over traffic. Never been a problem with them.

[Guest]

Yeah, there's another cable suspension bridge in the Lower Mainland that was built 25 years ago, and never caused a problem either.

I don't know what possessed them to cross the cables over the traffic lanes on this one.

How much is heat trace per metre?

[sharkman]

What a joke, eh? I saw some reps from Treo (I think it was treo) on the news last night, and they were pointing fingers at the contractors. The report said last winter they shut down construction of the bridge because of ice chunks falling and endangering construction workers.

This morning on NW980 they had an Engineer from Toledo Ohio where they built a bridge that has the same issues, and he said there is nothing you can do except close it down when the ice falls. They have a monitoring system for that.

Apparently the Alex Fraser bridge( Highway 91) had up to 20 ice incidents also, although they weren't sure all 20 were ice related. And that's with not closing it down as they did the Port Mann. What a freaking joke. This is a known issue, and they went ahead with the design anyway.

[BC_chick]

Agreed. Initially when I heard the bridge closed I thought it's just typical Vancouver over-reaction to the snow but then I saw the pictuers of the windshields!

It's unacceptable. I wonder how they're gonna spin it from here on in.

[Guest American Woman]

Just don't use it in the winter. In Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...t-mann-ice.html

I hope the same people aren't designing the bridge between Detroit and Windsor....

[cybercoma]

Man, oh Mann!

[bush_cheney2004]

We have at least two cable stayed bridges I can think of. But the cables are on the outside, not over traffic. Never been a problem with them.

OK...so who approved the cable stayed bridge design with the cables over the bridge deck ? Don't they have civil engineers and design reviews in BC ?

[Canuckistani]

OK...so who approved the cable stayed bridge design with the cables over the bridge deck ? Don't they have civil engineers and design reviews in BC ?

Sure. The govt is blaming the contractor, saying it's their problem. But, the paper reported today that this sort of thing happens all over the world. Ohio for example, and Boston. They also have to close bridges during weather conditions. I must admit I've never heard of it happening here before now, but maybe all the hoopla was just because it was a brand new bridge.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I must admit I've never heard of it happening here before now, but maybe all the hoopla was just because it was a brand new bridge.

Many bridges and roads are closed around the world due to bad weather or other unsafe conditions. I don't know what is so special about BC.

[Guest]

Many bridges and roads are closed around the world due to bad weather or other unsafe conditions. I don't know what is so special about BC.

It just snowed a bit.

If you can't build a bridge, in Canada, that can handle a morning's snowfall, you should give your P.Eng back and go be a greeter at Walmart.

Edited December 21, 2012 by bcsapper

[bush_cheney2004]

It just snowed a bit.

It snows where I live too.....roads are routinely closed. No big deal.

Edited December 21, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest]

It snows where I live too.....roads are routinely closed. No big deal.

It's not a road. Big deal.

[Canuckistani]

I'm not aware of us ever closing a bridge because of "snow bombs" before. We don't handle snow well in the Lower Mainland, but this was ridiculous Sorta like the Skytrain having to stop running because of a bit of ice on the tracks.

This bridge was built by a PPP. I sure hope the private partner who built the bridge is the one who takes the loss in tolls when it has to be closed because of snow. But knowing the way these things are done, the govt will be on the hook for any shortfalls. All PPP does is let the govt keep some debt off the books, while in the end paying more than if they had just paid for the thing up front in the first place. Nothing like capitalist dogmatism to cost more money.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Canuckistani

[guyser]

If you can't build a bridge, in Canada, that can handle a morning's snowfall, you should give your P.Eng back and go be a greeter at Walmart.

I would think it unfair to blame just the P.Eng's at this point. Remember , they didnt design it, nor build it,

Lots of people overlooked a crucial element .

But this happens a lot more than anyone knows. Architects and the like try to keep mistakes quiet,

There is a highrise built in Mamhattan in the 70's that designers forgot to check the winds and windloads against. Turns out it was built and it was an architect student who thought something was off. Because of a heritage building (IIRC) they moved the footings so that they were in the middle of each wall as opposed to the corners.

The Red Cross, City Emergency dept and others planned a disaster schedule/relief programme....but no one was allowed to tell the public. Had it fallen , it would have been worse than 9-11 in terms of deaths

It was kept quite for decades.

Edited December 21, 2012 by guyser

[Guest]

I would think it unfair to blame just the P.Eng's at this point. Remember , they didnt design it, nor build it,

I would have thought one would have to be an engineer to design or build a suspension bridge. If I've unfairly maligned that worthy group, I apologise.

Edited December 21, 2012 by bcsapper

[guyser]

I would have thought one would have to be an engineer to design or build a suspension bridge. If I've unfairly maligned that worthy group, I apologise.

A P. ENg doesnt do either.

They may be consulted and there are crossovers in play but the architect is the one who signs off.

The engineer signs the drafts when they ahve been checked.

Everyone missed on this one.

It should have been caught by the architect when designing. The P. Eng should have caught it when he looked the design over. The contractor should have seen the problem when he built it.

[BC_chick]

It should have been caught by the architect when designing. The P. Eng should have caught it when he looked the design over. The contractor should have seen the problem when he built it.

Incredible.

[sharkman]

Personally, I don't think that everybody missed it, it's a very well known problem. It's also a problem that other bridges have experienced, so it just seems too crazy that it was missed. Like I mentioned earlier, the construction workers LAST winter were sent home due to ice falling, which was a big red flag that the issue was going to happen. So the failure is on 2 fronts. First, deciding to go with a design that is problematic and second, not adapting to the slap in the face that was ice falling around the workers last winter. At that point they should have added heat trace or whatever.

But instead, we will probably be left with closures for the next 4+ years as the two sides hunker down and lawyer up. Just glad no one was killed this time. And this might be the final nail in the coffin for Christy Clark's hopes.

PS the thought about it being no big deal that roads are closed at winter might have had some merit, except for the following. The old bridge which this one replaced was never closed due to weather. Also, this freeway is the only multi lane freeway eastbound out of Vancouver to the rest of Canada. It's the Trans Canada highway, and it's bad enough that it now has a toll on it, now it'll be closed whenever ice falling becomes an issue.

Edited December 22, 2012 by sharkman

[Bonam]

But instead, we will probably be left with closures for the next 4+ years as the two sides hunker down and lawyer up. Just glad no one was killed this time.

Given what this bridge is, I'm guessing the actual physical problem will be fixed in fairly short order (this winter). However, there may indeed be years of "lawyering" to determine who ends up with the final bill.

[bush_cheney2004]

PS the thought about it being no big deal that roads are closed at winter might have had some merit, except for the following. The old bridge which this one replaced was never closed due to weather.

I'm betting that the old bridge was closed from time to time for various incidents related to weather. I googled just such a weather incident in 2011 which caused a BC Hydro tower to collapse.

Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses – Vancouver Sun

Posted on

July 5, 2011

by

Administrator

CBC.ca Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses Vancouver Sun METRO VANCOUVER – Highway 1 remains closed in both directions at the Cape Horn interchange after last night’s collapse of a BC Hydro tower. The Lougheed Highway is also closed from Brunette Avenue to ..

[Guest Derek L]

I'm betting that the old bridge was closed from time to time for various incidents related to weather. I googled just such a weather incident in 2011 which caused a BC Hydro tower to collapse.

Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses – Vancouver Sun

Posted on

July 5, 2011

by

Administrator

CBC.ca Port Mann bridge, Lougheed Highway closed after hydro tower collapses Vancouver Sun METRO VANCOUVER – Highway 1 remains closed in both directions at the Cape Horn interchange after last night’s collapse of a BC Hydro tower. The Lougheed Highway is also closed from Brunette Avenue to ..

I can see the bridge from my dinning room.........The incident you cite was the result of the construction of the new bridge.....The whole upgrade, also including new overpasses in the lower mainland, coupled with increased numbers of lanes, has been nothing but a dog and pony show............Originally they talked of keeping the old bridge and building a new one beside it………..I’m glad I telecommute to work, and the wife is taking sky train (also a joke) instead of driving due to the increase in traffic on other routes into the city to avoid the toll bridge………We live off the Lougheed Hwy, on the “right side of the bridge” to Vancouver, but still, since it opening there has been a noticeable increase on other routes……