F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[Guest Derek L]

No...the irony gods want it to be the AW101...

As does the RCAF and RCN (and the father of a fledging Zoomie)…..Simply put, the Seahawk did not meet our requirements in the 80s nor do they today, and though a cheaper initial outlay, would require wholesale doctrinal changes as to how our Navy works.

[bush_cheney2004]

If Canada wants bigger, stronger, and cheaper, buy used MH-53E Sea Dragons !

Edited October 20, 2013 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

If Canada wants bigger, stronger, and cheaper, buy used MH-53E's Sea Dragons :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/USMC-101210-M-1842C-182.jpg/220px-USMC-101210-M-1842C-182.jpg

Negative.......Though their quantise value as a heavy lifter is a given, and we just purchased new Chinooks with folding blades, for us, the maritime helicopters defining roles are as a ASW platform, VERTREP and a ISR platform for the fleet...........

Edited October 20, 2013 by Derek L

[waldo]

Figures linked to by you, released prior to the signing of LRIP 6 & 7........Hence incorrect based on the latest contracts.

nice - I see you're back to your silly-buggar self! You quoted the recent graphic I put up, the one that clearly distinguished 'Air Force' costs, the one from the U.S. government... and you tacked on a reference to 'averaging' across 3 planes. That's the context. If you're not speaking to that context, then why quote it... oh, right... your silly-buggar act! In any case, as I said, if you have anything official (other than LockMart propaganda) to counter that graphic......

The signings to date have all been linked in this thread (or other related threads)........

The numbers & timelines have already been "put down" in this thread............I've zero inclination to revisit those prior posts of mine for your benefit.

the only, as you say, "benefit for me", would be to have you finally acknowledge the discrepancy between U.S. military branches/initial country procurement commitments versus the numbers paired down by budgetary concerns and/or a lack of trust/faith in the program given it's decade+ over-budget, over-schedule, over-hype! Equally, it would have you finally attach wishful target dates to those "presumed" scaled down procurement numbers. The end result would be your handy-dandy reference guide to allow you a sense of reality; you know, balance out your school-girl cheerleading!

[waldo]

To me, the identity of the author is less of an issue than the claims he makes. I've noticed that the people around here who seem to get off on war porn haven't argued with what he is saying. They keep going on about how many countries are in the queue, even though none of those sales will be real if these turkeys don't get fixed. Lockheed Martin has been working on these things for almost 20 years and they are nowhere near combat ready.

in this particular case, this threads principal F-35 cheer-leader has a long-standing history of berating the individual... while taking pains to selectively ignore many challenges brought forward that quote specific statements/claims made by Wheeler. He's most selective in his cheer-leading!

[waldo]

.........And though I admit shock at the initial press reports of South Korea going with Boeing, said reports have both been countered by Lockheed and the South Korean Government.

is this you getting a bit more emboldened; do you have a new cheer?... cause, I'm reading nothing's been determined; that the review 'begins again'. Like I said, you really need to put up that "sales matrix"!

[Guest Derek L]

nice - I see you're back to your silly-buggar self! You quoted the recent graphic I put up, the one that clearly distinguished 'Air Force' costs, the one from the U.S. government... and you tacked on a reference to 'averaging' across 3 planes. That's the context. If you're not speaking to that context, then why quote it... oh, right... your silly-buggar act! In any case, as I said, if you have anything official (other than LockMart propaganda) to counter that graphic......

Already been provided.......

the only, as you say, "benefit for me", would be to have you finally acknowledge the discrepancy between U.S. military branches/initial country procurement commitments versus the numbers paired down by budgetary concerns and/or a lack of trust/faith in the program given it's decade+ over-budget, over-schedule, over-hype! Equally, it would have you finally attach wishful target dates to those "presumed" scaled down procurement numbers. The end result would be your handy-dandy reference guide to allow you a sense of reality; you know, balance out your school-girl cheerleading!

Do I understand your implication correctly, in that countries with “budgetary concerns” are in such position because of the F-35 program?

[Guest Derek L]

in this particular case, this threads principal F-35 cheer-leader has a long-standing history of berating the individual... while taking pains to selectively ignore many challenges brought forward that quote specific statements/claims made by Wheeler. He's most selective in his cheer-leading!

I suppose you didn't see my damning visual response to Mr Wheeler's claim disparaging the IFR abilities of the F-35.…..Of course Mr Wheelers equation of the F-35 to that of civil aviation within the United States is intellectually dishonest, fore the F-35 (like all military aircraft) is not governed by FAA guidelines, nor certification processes …….Perhaps Mr Wheeler should stick to fixing pianos or whatever he's doing now.

Edit to add: It is Pierre Sprey, the other go-to F-35 critic, that currently makes his living selling stereos, not fixing pianos.....Mea Culpa

Unlike Sprey, Wheeler's credentials contain no direct military or aviation background, outside of his role as "staffer" to several Senators that is..........combine this with the fact that he resigned and left Government several months after the then X-35 was selected as winner of the JSF program........Clearly his background and being out of Government for over a decade lends to his insight on the F-35 program

Edited October 20, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

is this you getting a bit more emboldened; do you have a new cheer?... cause, I'm reading nothing's been determined; that the review 'begins again'. Like I said, you really need to put up that "sales matrix"!

And to what be the reasons and stated purpose of the redo? Why a 5th Gen Stealth aircraft.......

[waldo]

Already been provided.......

nice... beauty! So you're free to quote me, throw down a completely out of context comment, get challenged on it in relation to the quote, and then throw back your "already been provided"!!! Beauty!

Do I understand your implication correctly, in that countries with “budgetary concerns” are in such position because of the F-35 program?

no that's your inference... I certainly stated nothing that would imply any such thing. What I did say was that reasons for JSF member countries reducing their initial procurement numbers relates directly to budgetary constraint. The most recent example of that is the Netherlands... now buying less than half of the original commitment... and, as we've discussed, this only transpired as an appeasement measure to keep the coalition government intact.

of course this keeps bringing the main point back to the sales matrix you really need to bring forward. Given all the initial commitment reductions, we can see your (LockMart magic) wizardry displayed... just how will those targets and accompanying cost reductions be met in the face of absolute reduced numbers by some countries and "uncertainty reviews" by others. Uhhh... presuming the plane actually materializes!

.

[waldo]

I suppose you didn't see my damning visual response to Mr Wheeler's claim

no - I typically drop off when your puffery meter rises to a certain level... what I do hold-up as a measure of your selectivity is your absolute refusal to engage on statements/claims I've provided from Wheeler - those that reflect more on official government reports. I really don't hold Wheeler up as some type of technical GuruGuy... given his background within the GAO/Senate... I tend to pay a little more attention to what he brings forward in review of those official government documents. You know, the documents you have repeatedly chosen to ignore given their highly critical review of the plane, of contractors, of the military, etc. You know, the stuff that doesn't fit within your cheer-leading and parroting of LockMart (see propaganda)!

[waldo]

And to what be the reasons and stated purpose of the redo? Why a 5th Gen Stealth aircraft.......

I read the reasons as LockMart/U.S. military swooping in again with "promises"... you know, a re-do of Japan! In any case, the tender process starts again - oh wait, you don't think those wrascally South Korean's would be using this re-do as a means to push Boeing to offer more? Oh wait, stealth! Will Boeing take the leap to include a mix of F-15 and Advanced Super Hornet... cause, like, uhhh... as I see it, the ASA stealth is on par with what anyone knows about the F-35 stealth, hey!

[Guest Derek L]

no that's your inference... I certainly stated nothing that would imply any such thing. What I did say was that reasons for JSF member countries reducing their initial procurement numbers relates directly to budgetary constraint. The most recent example of that is the Netherlands... now buying less than half of the original commitment... and, as we've discussed, this only transpired as an appeasement measure to keep the coalition government intact.

of course this keeps bringing the main point back to the sales matrix you really need to bring forward. Given all the initial commitment reductions, we can see your (LockMart magic) wizardry displayed... just how will those targets and accompanying cost reductions be met in the face of absolute reduced numbers by some countries and "uncertainty reviews" by others. Uhhh... presuming the plane actually materializes!

.

Yet the Dutch, due to said budgetary constraints, are also reducing the size of their army, navy and marines....This is not the fault of the F-35..........Yet, instead of purchasing a "cheaper alternative", they're sticking with the F-35...........As to a smaller order, there is nothing stating that once their budgetary concerns are addressed, a follow-on order can not take place.....

[Guest Derek L]

no - I typically drop off when your puffery meter rises to a certain level... what I do hold-up as a measure of your selectivity is your absolute refusal to engage on statements/claims I've provided from Wheeler - those that reflect more on official government reports. I really don't hold Wheeler up as some type of technical GuruGuy... given his background within the GAO/Senate... I tend to pay a little more attention to what he brings forward in review of those official government documents. You know, the documents you have repeatedly chosen to ignore given their highly critical review of the plane, of contractors, of the military, etc. You know, the stuff that doesn't fit within your cheer-leading and parroting of LockMart (see propaganda)!

With Wheeler, like Steven Staples here, I won’t chastise the factuality of their anti-war opinions or stances, after all, that is a human condition. Where they go wrong, in my opinion, is when they get into technical discussions that they have no understanding of, with the aim of furthering their crusade against said “human condition”………They propagate that by stopping production of a given tool, that society can stop war…….

Much like many of the (technical) arguments put forth by the anti-gun crowds……….Their utter ignorance on technical matters drowns out any valid philosophical points.

[Guest Derek L]

I read the reasons as LockMart/U.S. military swooping in again with "promises"... you know, a re-do of Japan! In any case, the tender process starts again - oh wait, you don't think those wrascally South Korean's would be using this re-do as a means to push Boeing to offer more? Oh wait, stealth! Will Boeing take the leap to include a mix of F-15 and Advanced Super Hornet... cause, like, uhhh... as I see it, the ASA stealth is on par with what anyone knows about the F-35 stealth, hey!

I've no idea what would point you in that direction.............

[waldo]

Yet the Dutch, due to said budgetary constraints, are also reducing the size of their army, navy and marines....This is not the fault of the F-35..........Yet, instead of purchasing a "cheaper alternative", they're sticking with the F-35...........As to a smaller order, there is nothing stating that once their budgetary concerns are addressed, a follow-on order can not take place.....

re: your, "the fault of the F-35"..... how ultra-sensitive are you? In fact, the only reason the F-35 wasn't canned outright was an appeasement to keep the current coalition government in place. We've gone over this - the Dutch parliament vote had the F-35 kicked to the curb.

it's all these "smaller orders" you keep ignoring. The point you refuse to address is that projected (propaganda) costs presumed on those initial procurement numbers... that, for branches of the U.S. military and several countries, are now smaller... that, for several countries, are non-existent as no firm commitments exist. The point you refuse to address is how those projected (propaganda) costs will be met with fewer production seats coming out. Like I referred to it earlier... your/LockMart magic... wizardry!

[Guest Derek L]

re: your, "the fault of the F-35"..... how ultra-sensitive are you? In fact, the only reason the F-35 wasn't canned outright was an appeasement to keep the current coalition government in place. We've gone over this - the Dutch parliament vote had the F-35 kicked to the curb.

it's all these "smaller orders" you keep ignoring. The point you refuse to address is that projected (propaganda) costs presumed on those initial procurement numbers... that, for branches of the U.S. military and several countries, are now smaller... that, for several countries, are non-existent as no firm commitments exist. The point you refuse to address is how those projected (propaganda) costs will be met with fewer production seats coming out. Like I referred to it earlier... your/LockMart magic... wizardry!

What’s the +/- Waldo…….A few less initial orders placed here or there versus new orders placed by non-partner nations……….At the end of the day, no nations have left, all the while non-partners have joined the program…….

[waldo]

With Wheeler, like Steven Staples here, I won’t chastise the factuality of their anti-war opinions or stances, after all, that is a human condition.

your desperation shines bright - it's absolute glowing! My reads on Wheeler are limited to mainstream articles, POGO... and a few blogs. I've yet to read anything Wheeler has written that has any semblance of "anti-war" to it. You're the first to mention Staples.

next time I read Wheeler quoting statements from a U.S. government report, I'll look to read between the lines for his (thinly veiled) anti-war opinion/stance!

[waldo]

What’s the +/- Waldo…….A few less initial orders placed here or there versus new orders placed by non-partner nations……….At the end of the day, no nations have left, all the while non-partners have joined the program…….

do the math... c'mon, bring the numbers forward. Your "no nations have left" is quite humourous in the face of reduced commitments, no official commitments and effectively, re-tenderings. A decade+ of over budget, over schedule, over-hype will do that, hey?

[Guest Derek L]

your desperation shines bright - it's absolute glowing! My reads on Wheeler are limited to mainstream articles, POGO... and a few blogs. I've yet to read anything Wheeler has written that has any semblance of "anti-war" to it. You're the first to mention Staples.

next time I read Wheeler quoting statements from a U.S. government report, I'll look to read between the lines for his (thinly veiled) anti-war opinion/stance!

I'll grant you a freebie on Wheeler:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/203636-1

In particular, I like his suggestion that General Smith was neglect in demonstrating modern air power under his Command during “The Troubles”………..Wheeler’s ignorance knows no bounds

[Guest Derek L]

do the math... c'mon, bring the numbers forward. Your "no nations have left" is quite humourous in the face of reduced commitments, no official commitments and effectively, re-tenderings. A decade+ of over budget, over schedule, over-hype will do that, hey?

I'll ask again Waldo.......What is the +/- that allows you to deduce your reduced commitments meme?

[waldo]

I'll grant you a freebie on Wheeler:

keep it... I certainly have no desire to follow your anti-war opinon/stance adhom! Like I said, you repeatedly ran away whenever I provided you an opportunity to challenge a Wheeler statement as pertained to U.S. GAO reports. Clearly, you're more at ease with adhom - go with your strengths, hey!

[Guest Derek L]

keep it... I certainly have no desire to follow your anti-war opinon/stance adhom! Like I said, you repeatedly ran away whenever I provided you an opportunity to challenge a Wheeler statement as pertained to U.S. GAO reports. Clearly, you're more at ease with adhom - go with your strengths, hey!

I did challenge his false claims.......and clearly proved them as bunk........Wheeler has no leg to stand on with any defense maters

[waldo]

I'll ask again Waldo.......What is the +/- that allows you to deduce your reduced commitments meme?

I'll say again, Derek L... put the numbers up. Initial procurement numbers for the respective U.S. military branches and JSFail partner countries, versus actual commitments... real commitments. And, as I've challenged you before, put those real numbers up against target production dates that will realize the propaganda costs you claim. It's a long road for you to get from ~60 production planes (total, across all LRIP) to... to... to... what? What's the monthly production number needed to make those propaganda orders fit those propaganda targets... based on reduced procurement or no outright commitments. Do the math, hey?

[waldo]

I did challenge his false claims.......and clearly proved them as bunk........Wheeler has no leg to stand on with any defense maters

BS! Bunk... I've never put up anything technical from Wheeler. Again, it's always been to what I interpret as his strengths... his time within the GOA. You know, those GAO reports Wheeler regularly references... those GAO reports you would have absolutely nothing to do with.