waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 According to DND's experts the F-35 is clearly the chioce for the new fighter replacement program and the independent review community has spent 14 months investagating to see if there was any bias in that decission and there was none. everything was done by proceedures laided out by the government and the treasury Dept...Looks like DND did this one right....but this not change the decision to take DND out of the procurement process. the 'bias fix' was already in - the AG's report historical accounting of the program shows exactly how requirements were jiggered to match a pre-conceived intent from within DND. To suggest "DND did this right" is outright blatant denial (or ignorance) of the early process... the results of which simply carried over into this latest go-around. If, as you say, "DND did this right", why are you calling for it to be removed from the procurement process? more pointedly, most pointedly, what's Harper waiting for? What are Harper Conservatives sitting on the report... if "everything's been done right, if the politicized so-called independent review has signed off", what's the hold-up? Harper Conservatives should be trumpeting this loud & proud! And yet... crickets! Is there a problem? this latest charade is par for the course. Clearly, the only way to get real costs for the F-35 is to have an open competition... one where LockMart is forced to respond to an RFP and provide real costs and substantiated estimates... not this ongoing puffery cycle being paraded! Nothing says it more than the response from Saab... that it would come back into the process if, and only if, an actual and legitimate open competition were to be forthcoming. Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Currently to-date? Far more 1st world nations have purchased the F-35, than Rafale. excellent - although it's a half-assed response, please continue and actually detail the numbers. Thanks in advance. Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 No technical hurdle, just cost......As I said, we would have to pay to integrate our entire inventory or replace it with French weapons…..This is not the case with the F-35 (or the Super Hornet).......... of course, cost is the last thing on your mind. You've always been of the "it costs what it costs" mentality as concerns the F-35. I do find this extract from the KPMG audit most apropos... to you, what's another $billion here or there, hey? With respect to weapons requirements, KPMG received confirmation that weapons currently in DND inventory, which can be employed on the F-35 fleet, will be retained and the initial stock of other weapons requirements related to gun ammunition and countermeasures had been included in the Estimate. We understand that the acquisition of newer weapons will be considered and funded as separate projects and comparison with Australia would suggest that these costs could be substantial (greater than $1 billion). . Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) of course, cost is the last thing on your mind. You've always been of the "it costs what it costs" mentality as concerns the F-35. I do find this extract from the KPMG audit most apropos... to you, what's another $billion here or there, hey? . What exactly is your point? That current stores can be used and that we will purchase additional munitions for the F-35 fleet? Like I was saying. What would it cost to replace all of our current munitions or integrate them with the Rafale? Remember the French (or the Indians if they actually purchase it) will not be paying for integration of American weapons on a French aircraft. Edited August 16, 2014 by Derek 2.0 Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 excellent - although it's a half-assed response, please continue and actually detail the numbers. Thanks in advance. Not a problem.....once you detail the numbers of international Rafale partners that have purchased the type. Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Not a problem..... did I bust your lil' charade? Not only do you not have numbers, you now deflect from the reality of needing to spend upwards of $1 billion dollars for weapons to load up JSFail! Another cost not accounted for... anywhere! But like I said, it's quite laughable that you would suggest a false/fake concern over cost! Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Currently to-date? Far more 1st world nations have purchased the F-35, than Rafale. More importantly, and like the Super Bug, sustaining domestic Rafale production will end in 2016 without more foreign orders. This article clearly explains just how small the remaining market is after new F-35 production gobbles up all the choice tenders: “There is a bigger market, but it is part of the market that’s addressable by F-35,” he said. “Look at South Korea. The market has decided that the F-35 wins the countries it is entered in, which means you have to look at the last of the contests where F-35 does not play a role.” With Brazil off the table, the trio of jets will focus mainly on four nations — Malaysia, Kuwait, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates (UAE), none of which is expected to make truly massive purchases. Even if one platform was to win all four of the major remaining competitions, the lifespan of these jets is likely running out, as domestic orders have mostly dried up. http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140104/DEFREG/301040008/Trouble-Twin-Engine-Giants- Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 wassup! You haven't commented on the "lowered specs" post... instead, per norm, you hope to bury it with more of your deflection/obsfucation! Of course you do. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 did I bust your lil' charade? Not only do you not have numbers, you now deflect from the reality of needing to spend upwards of $1 billion dollars for weapons to load up JSFail! Another cost not accounted for... anywhere! But like I said, it's quite laughable that you would suggest a false/fake concern over cost! The audit does not indicate what additional munitions, nor the timeframe, of the purchase of additional munitions….so I trust you have that tidbit? Also, to contrast properly, the cost of equipping the Rafale. Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 More importantly, and like the Super Bug, sustaining domestic Rafale production will end in 2016 without more foreign orders. try to keep up! See India... see Qatar. Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 The audit does not indicate what additional munitions, nor the timeframe, of the purchase of additional munitions….so I trust you have that tidbit? Also, to contrast properly, the cost of equipping the Rafale. oh wait! What's this??? The guy, you, who never offers anything but his own personal unsubstantiated opinion... that guy, is now challenging someone to present costs! After you Alphonse! Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 try to keep up! See India... see Qatar. What of them? Has India or Qatar actually ordered the Rafale yet? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 oh wait! What's this??? The guy, you, who never offers anything but his own personal unsubstantiated opinion... that guy, is now challenging someone to present costs! After you Alphonse! So what is the cost to replace the RCAF's entire munitions inventory or cost to integrate it so it could be used with the Rafale? Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 What of them? Has India or Qatar actually ordered the Rafale yet? bingo! Please, please... step up and state which countries have actually ordered the JSFail? Contracts, dollars exchanged and numbers, please!!! Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Rafale are all "legacy" production programs that do not have strong sustaining domestic contracts. The F-35 is decades away from this point in the program life cycle. Advantage F-35...... Edited August 16, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 bingo! Please, please... step up and state which countries have actually ordered the JSFail? Contracts, dollars exchanged and numbers, please!!! Once you provide the number of international Rafale partners Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 So what is the cost to replace the RCAF's entire munitions inventory or cost to integrate it so it could be used with the Rafale? the KPMG report specifically speaks to 'a part of the current inventory' that can be used with the F-35. And then, of course, as replayed to you now several times, upwards of $1 billion will be required to buy additional weapons for the F-35. Somehow, out of all this, you have yet to provide anything. You've offered up nuthin! Per norm, per your usual usual. Again, what will it cost Canada to equip the F-35 with required weaponry? I mean, after all, you started this, your latest deflection. C'mon, step up... finally... step up... once! Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Rafale are all "legacy" production programs that do not have strong sustaining domestic contracts. The F-35 is decades away from this point in the program life cycle. Advantage F-35...... didja hear the one about the U.S. congress back-tracking on the Warthog? Apparently, there are a lot of concerned politicians worried that the F-35 just won't cut it! The same happened with the latest funding for the Super Hornet variant... no one with any sense will let the U.S. fall into the trap of a single plane/single manufacturer. You know... all eggs in one basket! . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 So now the deflection game has gone from Super Duper Hornet to Rafale ?? Confirmation that the F-35 is a lock for Canada. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 So now the deflection game has gone from Super Duper Hornet to Rafale ?? Confirmation that the F-35 is a lock for Canada. what deflection game? Speaking to other options/alternatives is deflecting from..... what? If you can't offer a coherent response, perhaps you should stick with what you do best, hey? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 the KPMG report specifically speaks to 'a part of the current inventory' that can be used with the F-35. And then, of course, as replayed to you now several times, upwards of $1 billion will be required to buy additional weapons for the F-35. Somehow, out of all this, you have yet to provide anything. You've offered up nuthin! Per norm, per your usual usual. Again, what will it cost Canada to equip the F-35 with required weaponry? I mean, after all, you started this, your latest deflection. C'mon, step up... finally... step up... once! What portion of our current inventory can’t be used on the F-35? Aside from the gun munitions of course……..a billion dollars buys a lot of bullets…..I doubt the Americans have even spent that sum on fighter gun ammo, for all the services, post Vietnam. Again what is the cost to equip the Rafale? Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Again what is the cost to equip the Rafale? Again, what is the cost to equip the F-35? You can deflect, you can run... but you can't hide! Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 didja hear the one about the U.S. congress back-tracking on the Warthog? Apparently, there are a lot of concerned politicians worried that the F-35 just won't cut it! The same happened with the latest funding for the Super Hornet variant... no one with any sense will let the U.S. fall into the trap of a single plane/single manufacturer. You know... all eggs in one basket! . The concern of the retirement of the A-10 is fostered not in it's replacement, but the impact on various States Air National Guards and job losses..... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 Again, what is the cost to equip the F-35? You can deflect, you can run... but you can't hide! Aside from gun ammo, we already can with our current inventory.......not so much with the Rafale........So the cost of the Rafale? Quote
waldo Posted August 16, 2014 Report Posted August 16, 2014 The concern of the retirement of the A-10 is fostered not in it's replacement, but the impact on various States Air National Guards and job losses..... got your LockMart talking point, hey? Quote
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