F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[On Guard for Thee]

negotiations said to be 'back on' between India and Dassault for 126 Rafale jets... "Under the proposed contract, 18 Rafales would be supplied to the Indian Air Force by 2015 in fly-away condition, while the remaining 108 would be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India under transfer of technology agreements." ..... much like what appears to be a part of the Dassault offer to Canada; i.e., Canadian resident manufacturing with full technology transfer.

Hopefully such things will show up in the independant report that is now in Harper's hands commissioned after the scathing erstwhile AG report that surely must be tabled in the fall sitting.

[Derek 2.0]

Now that this joke is properly set up.....thoughts of a Canadian F-22 raises this already comical procurement farce to a whole new level. But it is consistent with any diversion that delays making an actual decision. Won't happen because F-22 FMS sales would cost billions to set up.

Including the cost of rebooting production?

[bush_cheney2004]

Including the cost of rebooting production?

Certainly not....the cost to start-up and qualify the supply chain, tooling, testing, etc. would be more billions. We won't see new F-22 production unless there is a world war ! One good reason to shut off international access to the F-22 was to help push sales of the F-35 JSF.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well imagine the concept of spending billions on something that actually works and billions on something that continues to show it doesn't. Duh.

[waldo]

hey 2.0... weren't you the guy who touted 'continuous update' was 'de rigueur'? Is it your position to suggest the Rafale has not undergone any upgrades since it's inception? But hey now... with the change in Indian government it appeared there was a crack open for another round... all the manufacturers sent their sales forces to India. Why... even U.S. Secretary of State Kerry and Secretary of Defense Hagel went to India themselves in an attempt to wiggle an opening for JSFail. But... it looks like the Rafale has prevailed - go figure, hey!

Edited August 15, 2014 by waldo

[waldo]

One good reason to shut off international access to the F-22 was to help push sales of the F-35 JSF.

ya, ya! That's why it was done - ya betcha!

.

[Derek 2.0]

weren't you the guy who touted 'continuous update' was 'de rigueur'? Is it your position to suggest the Rafale has not undergone any upgrades since it's inception? But hey now... with the change in Indian government it appeared there was a crack open for another round... all the manufacturers sent their sales forces to India. Why... even U.S. Secretary of State Kerry and Secretary of Defense Hagel went to India themselves in an attempt to wiggle an opening for JSFail. But... it looks like the Rafale has prevailed - go figure, hey!

The US Government won't allow a technology transfer......the same reason the Super Hornet, Eagle and Falcon were eliminated from contention......

So what Canadian company could produce the Rafale in a similar fashion?

[bush_cheney2004]

Let's see how long we can stretch this thread out, because unlike other nations and new F-35 customers, Canada continues to dither. Let's be perfectly clear here: there will be no butting in line to get F-35s like it did for USAF C-17s !

[Derek 2.0]

Certainly not....the cost to start-up and qualify the supply chain, tooling, testing, etc. would be more billions. We won't see new F-22 production unless there is a world war ! One good reason to shut off international access to the F-22 was to help push sales of the F-35 JSF.

.....The final nail was hammered when Romney lost......Funds would be much better spent on the F-22/F-15/Super Hornet replacement....

[Derek 2.0]

Let's see how long we can stretch this thread out, because unlike other nations and new F-35 customers, Canada continues to dither. Let's be perfectly clear here: there will be no butting in line to get F-35s like it did for USAF C-17s !

I wouldn't rule that out........if an order was based on that condition.....the real concern is the remaining life of our current Hornets.

[waldo]

The US Government won't allow a technology transfer......the same reason the Super Hornet, Eagle and Falcon were eliminated from contention......

nuthin says captive audience like denying technology transfer, hey!

So what Canadian company could produce the Rafale in a similar fashion?

are you saying no Canadian company, under the direction/assistance of a plane's manufacturer is capable? Is that also the case for all those LockMart resident manufacturing incentives to JSF partner nations... that LockMart doesn't include initial set-up and hand-holding as a part of the incentive offering?

[bush_cheney2004]

OK, but either way, we have a lot of time to kill, and I'm running out of snarky cartoons.

When is the election.....October 2015 ?

[waldo]

Let's see how long we can stretch this thread out

do you have your lineup of LOLcat images waiting?

[waldo]

OK, but either way, we have a lot of time to kill, and I'm running out of snarky cartoons.

When is the election.....October 2015 ?

so much Canada bashing to do... so little time!

[On Guard for Thee]

OK, but either way, we have a lot of time to kill, and I'm running out of snarky cartoons.

When is the election.....October 2015 ?

I'm sure you'll never run out of snarky cartoons. Other than that you got nutin'. And we all enjoy the giggles.

[waldo]

I'm sure you'll never run out of snarky cartoons. Other than that you got nutin'. And we all enjoy the giggles.

got nuthin is right! And that's 'shits and giggles' all around...

.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder if the Canadian pilots can begin type training before a "decision" (cough cough) is made. That would be bad "optics"...huh ?

[waldo]

I wonder if the Canadian pilots can begin type training before a "decision" (cough cough) is made. That would be bad "optics"...huh?

training on what? Nuthins flying right now... you know, engine go bang! How do you like those optic apples!

[Derek 2.0]

are you saying no Canadian company, under the direction/assistance of a plane's manufacturer is capable? Is that also the case for all those LockMart resident manufacturing incentives to JSF partner nations... that LockMart doesn't include initial set-up and hand-holding as a part of the incentive offering?

Currently none........Unlike the Indians, that already have their own domestic (fighter) industry, Canada does not.......So what Canadian company would be retooled and how much would it cost and who pays for it?

And LockMart has no need.......most of the Canadian companies are already subsidiaries of larger American/British companies, have years of niche experience producing material for past American programs and have no historic ties to the French (military) industries, especially producing French fighters....

Why would a Boeing or Lockheed Canadian division help the French?

[On Guard for Thee]

I wonder if the Canadian pilots can begin type training before a "decision" (cough cough) is made. That would be bad "optics"...huh ?

The bad optics are on the F 35 helmet it seems. Type training will be easy peasy since Canadian pilots are already familiar with the Hornet cockpit as are the enginers with the stuff aft of the firewall. Just a little upgrading, good to go. And you don't have to take it out of service every 3 hours to peek inside the engine to see if it's about to blow up.

[waldo]

Currently none........Unlike the Indians, that already have their own domestic (fighter) industry, Canada does not.......So what Canadian company would be retooled and how much would it cost and who pays for it?

And LockMart has no need.......most of the Canadian companies are already subsidiaries of larger American/British companies, have years of niche experience producing material for past American programs and have no historic ties to the French (military) industries, especially producing French fighters....

Why would a Boeing or Lockheed Canadian division help the French?

clearly... if Dassault is prepared to make the offer... it's also prepared to bear some 'negotiated part of the cost'. I wasn't referring to Canada when speaking to those LockMart resident manufacturing incentive offerings... you clearly know about them but for some reason chose to turn that question/challenge back to Canada. Again, are you saying that LockMart doesn't include setup/hand-holding as a part of it's incentive offerings that include resident manufacturing within (non-Canadian) partner nations?

[waldo]

New Your Times Editorial Board, no less: Rough Ride For the F-35... "...a serious reappraisal is long overdue"

[Derek 2.0]

clearly... if Dassault is prepared to make the offer... it's also prepared to bear some 'negotiated part of the cost'. I wasn't referring to Canada when speaking to those LockMart resident manufacturing incentive offerings... you clearly know about them but for some reason chose to turn that question/challenge back to Canada. Again, are you saying that LockMart doesn't include setup/hand-holding as a part of it's incentive offerings that include resident manufacturing within (non-Canadian) partner nations?

The French have not outlined a detailed plan to build Rafale in Canada…….they have no partners to do so with.

And you are comparing apples to oranges……P&W Canada, a division of an American company, can (and already have) shifted a portion of the production of the F135 engine for the F-35 to Canada…..Snecma doesn’t make engines, or even military engine components in Canada (or North America)…….The same with weapons, avionics, the fuselage etc…………about the only possible opportunity would be with Thales Canada, but of course they don’t currently produce airborne military radars in Canada.

There is near zero chance that Canada would procure a French fighter aircraft…….There is a greater chance of procuring the Saab Gripen NG, even though Saab pulled itself from contention.

[waldo]

The French have not outlined a detailed plan to build Rafale in Canada…….they have no partners to do so with.

There is near zero chance that Canada would procure a French fighter aircraft…….

your unsubstantiated opinion is noted

[Derek 2.0]

your unsubstantiated opinion is noted

What plan have they offered, and who would they partner with? Name names.....offer an opinion/guess of your own.