F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[On Guard for Thee]

Like Canada, Israel could have already chosen the Super Hornet...it did not. The US Navy and Australia already have them in operational squadrons. As in any other Canadian military procurement fiasco, this has become more talk than walk.

I wonder how Australia does that since they haven't taken delivery yet of an aircraft that is currently grounded after the LATEST engine fire?

[Rue]

Australia is committed to the superhornet. They have given upon the F35.

As for Israel, Israel is locked in to purchase ONLY 20 to test. Its down from 25.

They were not happy. They had to fight with the Americans to be allowed to put in their own communications systems.

As well another big fight us going to be with the IAF because the IAF wants to use their own electronic warfare systems not the one the US is trying to force on them which they consider flawed.

They also feel the range of the F35 is unacceptable.

They also said they would only take delivery of those 20 provided the cockpit is modified which has not yet to be done and no one knows if that is possible or whether any planes can be delivered to them by 2015. As it is the F35 they g et will have no real electronic systems. They won't be ready.. If the cockpit is not modified the IAF won't take th F35'. They have now made that clear.

Israel does what is best for its pilots. It does not work the other way around as in the US where each time a flaw is discovered the operation requirements of the craft is lowered as has been done with the F35 from the get go. Israel has specific standards. Go below those specific standards the plane is toast.

Israel's best option is to go with the upgraded F15 Silent Eagle.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Rue

[Smallc]

Do you even bother to factcheck?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/04/us-military-grounds-all-f-35-fighter-jets-but-australias-purchase-to-go-ahead

[bush_cheney2004]

Australia is committed to the superhornet. They have given upon the F35.

As for Israel, Israel is locked in to purchase ONLY 20 to test. Its down from 25.

Regardless of what happens with the F-35, other nations are moving forward with actual decisions and contracts. Canada just keeps kicking the can down the road, as usual. I suspect that this popular dance with Avro Arrow II...Gripen...Super Hornet...Rafale....Silent Eagle...F-16 Block 60...and God knows what else is just more of the same game. Anything goes just as long as serious taxpayer money is not yet being spent !

Edited July 6, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[On Guard for Thee]

Regardless of what happens with the F-35, other nations are moving forward with actual decisions and contracts. Canada just keeps kicking the can down the road, as usual. I suspect that this popular dance with Avro Arrow II...Gripen...Super Hornet...Rafale....Silent Eagle...F-16 Block 60...and God knows what else is just more of the same game. Anything goes just as long as serious taxpayer money is not yet being spent !

The can keeps getting kicked down the road because the F 35 keeps on having the same snags. I think I'd rather do that than have to spend money picking pilots off the arctic tundra after another turbine wheel cracks. I say that as a serious Canadian taxpayer.

[Derek 2.0]

Derek the tactic of asking questions to avoid responding to the flaws is not working.

The flaws I have reported on this forum are reported by others not me. You keep addressing these flaws as if I created them. I did not.

In fact your responses would have us presume everyone is wrong but you.

What’s at issue is not you relaying reports by others, but you relaying both dated and incorrect reports(that have been addressed in this very thread) that are no longer relevant.

As for who’s right……well history will decide, but based on precedent, I’ll go with the multinational F35 partnership, instead bloggers and the shrill critics found within the media.

Also before you say the helmet is fine go find out why it was pulled and is still not functioning properly.

Also while you are at it take a look at the fuel dump system and tell me how it was fixed.

Please.Provide the report that says the fuel dump system was fixed, the helmet issues were fixed, the problems with the Block 2B software were fixed, the cracks in the engine were fixed. Please since you are the eF35 exper and everyone else is wrong actually go through the flaws and show they have been fixed.

I have no inclination to do that for you, as I said, those points have been addressed within the several F-35 related threads on this site over the last several years.

With due respect Derek you can not.

Already have.

By the way your answer to the maintenance cost of the plane going down as its flown more was absurd.

How is average hourly cost calculated?

So was the attempt to avoid the noise of the aircraft by asking me at what range...Derek that question is a direct evasion of the noise issue. The range does not matter, the damage it will do to the Northern environment is the issue. Did you really miss that point?

Jet aircraft are loud.......big surprise.

You have all the answers Derek then please provide them.....go through the flaws and explain how they were fixed. You have not.

Well I have........Nearly all the points you bring up have been discussed and debated already on this forum……As I’ve said, I have no desire to redress them for you……..

The most likely scenario now will be the RCAF having to purchase the Superhornet, some designed for training, some for overseas operations and the remainder for long range patrol interception. Australia is headed that way and Canada will have no choice either. The Superhornet is more expensive than the Grypen but worth the extra money. Its also the easiest transition.

The Gripen is more expensive then the Super Hornet........And there are no training variants of the Super Hornet.

That kind of hype might work on armchair pilots but the actual test pilots who have flown the F35 have called it crap and so Lockhead can spin all they want but once a test pilot pans a jet, its game over.

A bold claim.....care to back that up?

Australia is committed to the superhornet. They have given upon the F35.

As for Israel, Israel is locked in to purchase ONLY 20 to test. Its down from 25.

And what percent of said purchase are actually paid for by Israel, as opposed to the Americans?

They were not happy. They had to fight with the Americans to be allowed to put in their own communications systems.

As well another big fight us going to be with the IAF because the IAF wants to use their own electronic warfare systems not the one the US is trying to force on them which they consider flawed.

Do you understand why that is? The Israelis require the F-35 integrated within their nuclear deterrent…….The Americans reluctance to give them access to the source code is due to their habit of selling technology to anybody for a Shekel……

They also feel the range of the F35 is unacceptable.

Source? The F-35 exceeds the IAF's F-16s range.

Israel's best option is to go with the upgraded F15 Silent Eagle.

But will the Americans pay to develop them for Israel? I find it rich that you suggest the Israelis are actually even purchasing them, since we all know that the Americans underwrite their defence………beggars can’t be too choosy.

[Derek 2.0]

Regardless of what happens with the F-35, other nations are moving forward with actual decisions and contracts. Canada just keeps kicking the can down the road, as usual. I suspect that this popular dance with Avro Arrow II...Gripen...Super Hornet...Rafale....Silent Eagle...F-16 Block 60...and God knows what else is just more of the same game. Anything goes just as long as serious taxpayer money is not yet being spent !

As is obvious, domestic politics always trumps the needs of the military in Canada……..All started with the Ross Rifle

[bush_cheney2004]

May have missed this in an earlier post, but I have a photo. Lions and tigers and T-50 engines fires....oh my !!

http://www.janes.com/article/38971/russian-t-50-pak-fa-fighter-prototype-catches-fire

Edited July 6, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

May have missed this in an earlier post, but I have a photo. Lions and tigers and T-50 engines fires....oh my !!

Well I sure hope the Russians have dropped the program!?!?!?!?!?!

I wonder how the Chinese are doing? They have trouble copying Russian turbofans from the 70s....

[bush_cheney2004]

Well I sure hope the Russians have dropped the program!?!?!?!?!?!

Abort ! Abort ! Abort ! Must be those "hot ceramic coated turbine blades" .

Canada could probably get this T-50 at a deep discount.

Edited July 6, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

Abort ! Abort ! Abort ! Must be those "hot ceramic coated turbine blades" .

Exactly...........Well we’re on the subject, from my understanding, the problem is actually the hollow blades, which P&W first discovered back in December (during the noted test bed failure) and have already sorted a work-around that can be retrofitted in the field……..as is currently underway for the aircraft in Maryland awaiting the hop across the pond.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well I sure hope the Russians have dropped the program!?!?!?!?!?!

I wonder how the Chinese are doing? They have trouble copying Russian turbofans from the 70s....

Got any pictures of that most recent F 35 with the ass end burnt off? I hear tell it look's quite similar.

[Derek 2.0]

Got any pictures of that most recent F 35 with the ass end burnt off? I hear tell it look's quite similar.

Nope.......do you have any of the Super Hornets when they were grounded twice due to engine issues?

[On Guard for Thee]

Nope.......do you have any of the Super Hornets when they were grounded twice due to engine issues?

Lot's of pictures of Super Hornets actually flying in actual service.

[Derek 2.0]

Lot's of pictures of Super Hornets actually flying in actual service.

Exactly…..which indicates the engineers were able to resolve the aircraft’s initial problems.

[On Guard for Thee]

Exactly…..which indicates the engineers were able to resolve the aircraft’s initial problems.

On that aircraft. Apparently not so much on the F 35. Look at the history. How many years, how many billions, and they still can't get it right. In a basic way it seems to come down to this, you can't, with current technology, have one plane that can do multi missions effectively. It's kinda like trying to make your Ford Aerostar a race car and a dump truck as well as a family camper, all at the same time. Doesn't work.

[Derek 2.0]

On that aircraft. Apparently not so much on the F 35.

Are suggesting no other aircraft was beset with developmental issues and was able to overcome them?

Look at the history. How many years, how many billions, and they still can't get it right. In a basic way it seems to come down to this, you can't, with current technology, have one plane that can do multi missions effectively.

So what was that cumulative number associated with the development of the Hornet, Falcon and Harrier again?

It's kinda like trying to make your Ford Aerostar a race car and a dump truck as well as a family camper, all at the same time. Doesn't work.

Well no, it's not.........The F-35 was a clean slate.

[On Guard for Thee]

Sure it was a clean slate. Unfortunately it was just a concept that doesn't work. At least not yet. It's the airplane that is trying to do everything, and ends up not doing anything all that well. "Bomb truck" I think is an apt description.

[Derek 2.0]

Sure it was a clean slate. Unfortunately it was just a concept that doesn't work. At least not yet. It's the airplane that is trying to do everything, and ends up not doing anything all that well. "Bomb truck" I think is an apt description.

Are you now suggesting, unlike the fabled Super Hornet, the F-35 will never be sorted and work as required? Quite the bold statement if true, what qualifies your opinion over that of all the militaries that are apart or have joined the program?

The concept of a multirole aircraft is hardly new…..

[On Guard for Thee]

You just can't be a Warthog and a supersonic fighter at the same time. Although I understand the 35 has never achieved SS flight. And do you mean all those militaries that are like dominoes backing away?

[Derek 2.0]

You just can't be a Warthog and a supersonic fighter at the same time. Although I understand the 35 has never achieved SS flight. And do you mean all those militaries that are like dominoes backing away?

The F-35 isn’t trying to be a Warthog though……..As to SS flight, you understand incorrectly then….And what countries are backing away like dominoes?

[On Guard for Thee]

The F-35 isn’t trying to be a Warthog though……..As to SS flight, you understand incorrectly then….And what countries are backing away like dominoes?

How about the UK, Australia, Italy, Israel, Norway, and of course what's that other one? Oh yeah, the US.

[Derek 2.0]

How about the UK, Australia, Italy, Israel, Norway, and of course what's that other one? Oh yeah, the US.

How have each of those nations backed away from the program?

[On Guard for Thee]

By reducing their orders. And in some cases ordering Super Hornets to fill the gap the constant delays of the F 35 program have caused.

[Derek 2.0]

By reducing their orders. And in some cases ordering Super Hornets to fill the gap the constant delays of the F 35 program have caused.

Yes, but as I already said to you, those nations that have reduced their orders, or postponed them, have also been making wholesale cuts to other branches of their armed forces and Government as a whole…….this is not a reflection upon the F-35, but a given nations finances, as clearly if it were associated with the F-35, said nations would select a “cheaper alternative”……..

As to the Super Hornet orders, neither the USN or RAAF have replaced legacy Hornets with Super Hornet instead of the F-35. That is simply not true.