Who should own Alberta's oil?

[kimmy]

Do you people know anything? Dozens of junior oil companies were floated in Toeonto in the boom years of exploration. Many more already in exostence increased capitalization through new stock issues in Toronto. I could name some of them if you are really so ignorant of Alberta's development.

Earlier in this thread I linked to the CBC Archive that I found while I was doing research. One of the snippets includes a university professor saying the same thing as Stampeder: the oil industry, in its founding stages, was built through American investment. Entrepreneurs who went to Bay Street looking for capital were rebuffed and went to New York instead.

Bay Street no doubt hopped on once they realized there was money to be made, but what does that matter? I'm sure their investments have paid off handsomely. I don't think any of this was based on altruism or a sense of national duty. They bought in so they could make money. They came, they saw, they got paid.

-kimmy

[Guest eureka]

In the 1960's and early 70's, I ran a small speculative club which invested in penny mines and Western Oils. It did very well, indeed, and there was no altruism in our thoughts.

We bought into a number of new issues as well as existing stocks and capital issues. Off hand, I can name stocks like Central Del Rio and Home Oil. There were a dozen or more others: names I could probably find if I rooted through some old boxes. The club was just a five dollar a month thing but it made over 400% in seven years.

[kimmy]

In the 1960's and early 70's, I ran a small speculative club which invested in penny mines and Western Oils. It did very well, indeed, and there was no altruism in our thoughts.

We bought into a number of new issues as well as existing stocks and capital issues. Off hand, I can name stocks like Central Del Rio and Home Oil. There were a dozen or more others: names I could probably find if I rooted through some old boxes. The club was just a five dollar a month thing but it made over 400% in seven years.

That's super!

However, it does nothing to refute the claim that Bay Street was nowhere in sight when the Alberta oil-patch was in its fledgling stages in the 1930s and 40s.

-kimmy

[Guest eureka]

Actually, it does. New issues are capital raising ventures from Bay Street.

[JWayne625]

Of course Alberta owns the oil within their Province, and they are good enough to share some of that wealth with the ROC. We could be greedy like Trudeau was when he brought in the National Energy Program and put Alberta in financial trouble for years. Talks of pulling another stupid stunt like the NEP only encourages more talk of Western alienation, and more talk of Alberta separation.

Ottawa is just itching to get their hands on all that money so that they can shovel more money into Quebec, to keep them happy, and to hell with the ROC. My advice to Alberta is to immediately call a referrendum on separation if Ottawa attempts another cash grab. Both of my son's live there and I would have no problem visiting them, in another country. I may have to cross the banana republic of Quebec to get there, or I could just travel through the USA, which I normally do anyway on my way to Ontario. Why, because I resent having to put up with signage in a language I do not understand, nor want to understand.

[August1991]

Of course Alberta owns the oil within their Province

When you say 'Alberta', do you mean the Albertan government? Are you a socialist or something?

[kimmy]

Actually, it does. New issues are capital raising ventures from Bay Street.

The fact that you were buying stocks of these companies in the 1960s and 1970s proves that they were in Alberta 30-40 years earlier? You'll forgive me if I don't find that logic very convincing. "Central Del Rio Oils", for instance, doesn't appear to have existed before 1960.

-kimmy

[Guest eureka]

Does that not support what I said? New issues and capitalization increases were common at that time. Money was raised on Bay Street.

The same can be said for many supply companies. The point of this is that Canadian money went into the development of oil in Alberta not just American. For what reason, I cannot imagine but it seems that some Albertans want to think that there was no Canadian content.

You would be better served in asking how it was allowed that all these Canadian juniors, and some not so junior, later fell into American hands,

[Black Dog]

Ottawa is just itching to get their hands on all that money so that they can shovel more money into Quebec, to keep them happy, and to hell with the ROC. My advice to Alberta is to immediately call a referrendum on separation if Ottawa attempts another cash grab. Both of my son's live there and I would have no problem visiting them, in another country. I may have to cross the banana republic of Quebec to get there, or I could just travel through the USA, which I normally do anyway on my way to Ontario. Why, because I resent having to put up with signage in a language I do not understand, nor want to understand.

Uhm...has anyone from the federal government said anything about taking Alberta's oil revenue?

[stamps]

Does that not support what I said? New issues and capitalization increases were common at that time. Money was raised on Bay Street.

The same can be said for many supply companies. The point of this is that Canadian money went into the development of oil in Alberta not just American. For what reason, I cannot imagine but it seems that some Albertans want to think that there was no Canadian content.

You would be better served in asking how it was allowed that all these Canadian juniors, and some not so junior, later fell into American hands,

Bay street jumped on an opportunity that was already established, the point that you seem to be missing is that when Alberta needed venture capital to originally develope the industry PRIOR to 1960 eastern Canada would'nt help us, BTW do you have some kind of reasoning deficiency because you seem to be having a hard time grasping this point..... and so far as Americans buying up some Oil companies in Alberta is concerned I have no problem with it, they were there with us from the start when nobody else would help us....

[ticker]

You would be better served in asking how it was allowed that all these Canadian juniors, and some not so junior, later fell into American hands,

could it be that ottawa refused to build a pipeline to the east because they could get a better deal from the arabs at the time resulting in these oil companies being sold to the US as they were not profitable if they didn't run at full capacity.

Ontario had 80 years to build up their industry. Before the Canada-US Free Trade Agreement, the west was forced to buy goods manufactured in Ontario or Quebec, exclusively. If some product was available across the border at a much better price, a duty would be slapped on that product to make it more expensive than the Ontario product. And we had to pay the transportation costs, too.

The population in the west was too low to make manufacturing here feasible without a larger market. The same control over pricing was never afforded the west. Even resources would not be given the same advantage. Coal is a good example. For decades Ontario Hydro's coal-fired plants burnt the foulest, most-polluting coal available because it was cheap and right across the border in Pennsylvannia and West Virginia. Only when acid rain became an issue did that practice stop. Alberta and BC have mountains of low-sulphur coal. But even to this day Ontario Hydro uses coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming.

[Guest eureka]

Alberta had lots of investment from the East. The East also had lots of investment from the USA. Would it not occur to you that Canada was a small, developing economy before 1960. It needed capital from everywhere and got it. Iron ore discoveries in the East, for one example, were discovered and, in the early stages, developed through Canadian capital. They also were taken over by American companies.

Before the Free Trade agreements, there was little difference to what now is the norm. Free Trade hardly made a difference in the levels of tariffs. The major difference brought about under the Agreements was in allowing American interests greater access and control of Canadian industry.

Why would Ontario not use American coal? It was much cheaper. Isn't that what trade is supposed to be about? Don't forget the Diefenbaker oil policy that gave the Alberta advantage. Alberta never was "forced" to buy Ontario products either. They bought because they were cheaper. And, Ontario, for a long time, contributed to equalization payments for Alberta. So did Quebec.

[ticker]

Why would Ontario not use American coal? It was much cheaper.

why wouldn't ontario use Alberta oil? It was much cheaper after PET and his NEP.

[Guest eureka]

You seem to have little grasp of the geopolitics and economics of oil. There was a time when Venezulean oil was used in the East and it made sense from an economic and security of supply reasoning.

[ticker]

Alberta never was "forced" to buy Ontario products either. They bought because they were cheaper.

You seem to have little grasp of the geopolitics and economics of oil

There was a time when Venezulean oil was used in the East and it made sense from an economic and security of supply reasoning.

ok it was "unecomonimical" to by from the US after the feds added their import tax to protect ontario.

oh i forgot you made 400% off 5 dollars a month with the investment club oh wise one.

and when Venezulean oil got expensive it was replaced with Canadian NEP oil.

[August1991]

And, Ontario, for a long time, contributed to equalization payments for Alberta.

Alberta never received equalization payments. It has always been a net contributor.

[This situation is of course a consequence of the fact that the Albertan government is the sole beneficiary of royalty payments for oil and gas extraction.]

Prior to the creation of equalization payments in the 1950s, Alberta may have been a net recipient of federal payments.

[ticker]

There was a time when Venezulean oil was used in the East and it made sense from an economic and security of supply reasoning.

there was a time when Canadian oil companies were sold the the US because it made economic sense due to the Venezulean factor.

and as a result trudeau used discriminating policies on US oil companies to tell them to get lost when the feds realized it was not smart to put all you eggs in the same basket and plan on cheap Venezulan oil.

[Shakeyhands]

Klein and Co. is trotting out the old "Ottawa wants your oil revenue" to bolster his image pre election... It's that simple.

And I really enjoy all of the seperatist whining I am hearing from Alberta, its truely funny.

Why do parts West have such a inferiority complex when it comes to Ontario? Whats the deal, we certainly don't see it like that.

[ticker]

Klein and Co. is trotting out the old "Ottawa wants your oil revenue" to bolster his image pre election... It's that simple.

And I really enjoy all of the seperatist whining I am hearing from Alberta, its truely funny.

Why do parts West have such a inferiority complex when it comes to Ontario? Whats the deal, we certainly don't see it like that.

I guess you never heard the phrase fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

[Shakeyhands]

No... I have heard the retarded US version though....

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on ummmm — shame on you. Fool me ummmm — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

Is it the same in Alberta?

[Guest eureka]

From its entry into Confederation until 1964, Alberta received equalization payments. They just did not have that name or a nationwide formula.

Ticker, argue with the facts if you can find them.

[August1991]

From its entry into Confederation until 1964, Alberta received equalization payments. They just did not have that name or a nationwide formula.

Please provide evidence of what you claim.

I thought equalization payments started in the 1950s but I could be wrong.

[Guest eureka]

Start with reading the Alberta Constitution. Payments were made to the province on a per capita basis. Then, until Alberta became a "have" province and a net contributor to Equalizarion, it received transfers from the federal government just like any other province. The transfer amounts were proportionate to need.

Equalizarion was merely a formalization of transfers and the provider of a fairer distribution.

[kimmy]

I've seen this before. Equalization payments officially began in 1957, and Alberta was a recipient from that time until 1964 when the formula was change to reflect resource revenues.

And, from 1905 to 1930, Alberta didn't have the full rights of the older provinces. Alberta received an "allowance" in lieu of revenue from mineral rights. That changed in the Constitution Act of 1930. The allowance was dropped, mineral rights were granted, but not enough to amount to anything, and with agriculture struggling at that time, Alberta went bankrupt almost immediately. Alberta was one of the poorest provinces in Canada until oil hit big. Although smaller discoveries had been made far earlier, the big strike in 1947 is often cited as the time things changed.

-kimmy

[ticker]

Canada was not so social haven 100 years ago or even 50. You are never going to convince Albertans that the dust spot hinterland received 200 billion in the first 50 years to offset the 200 billion that has gone out since to prop up trudeau’s vision of socialism.

The Canadian government simply didn't redistribute wealth yesteryear as it does today

Between 1961 and 1997, a net $167 billion dollars left Alberta for Ottawa

But if baystreet jumping in on an investment opportunity “AFTER” the US put up the initial money to get it started equates to the center of the universe creating the oil industry …