August1991 Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 The BNA Act gave control of natural resources below ground to the provinces. This means royalty payments for extracting oil go to the provinces, primarily Alberta. These payments are large when the world price of oil is high, like now. But why should that be? Why should only the Albertan government benefit from this chance gift of geology? The federal government has a variety of Constitutional ways to collect all of these royalties. It should do so. The oil beneath the ground, by rights, should belong to all Canadians. Royalty payments should go to the federal government, not a provincial government, and then be shared among all Canadians. Why do Albertans through their provincial government get this largesse - but no one else? Quote
Stoker Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Why should only the Albertan government benefit from this chance gift of geology? The federal government has a variety of Constitutional ways to collect all of these royalties. It should do so. I too would like to see the East further stick it to us out West........not because I'm sadistic, but because that could be the final straw that breaks the back of western federalists and put in motion Western secession. That would make my day. The oil beneath the ground, by rights, should belong to all Canadians. Royalty payments should go to the federal government, not a provincial government, and then be shared among all Canadians. Why do Albertans through their provincial government get this largesse - but no one else? I, on behalf of the Albertain government, would like the martimes provinces to pay, retroactively, an equal sum to the West of all the benifits they received from the Grand Banks. Quote The beaver, which has come to represent Canada as the eagle does the United States and the lion Britain, is a flat-tailed, slow-witted, toothy rodent known to bite off it's own testicles or to stand under its own falling trees. -June Callwood-
playfullfellow Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Sort of another version of the NEP I take it. That went over very well for Alberta in the 80's. 100's of bankrupted companies, 1000's out of work. Where was the all the helpfulness and gold hearted attitude from the East? 60 billion dollars went East in 4 short years and what did they do with it? They pissed it away. Why should Ontario and Quebec get money from royalties when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it? Alberta already pays much more than it gets back and you talk of taking more, that is a bunch of self righteous bs in my mind. If other provinces want to get in on the oil industry boon, then they need to invest in it themselves, not just stand with their hand out every time some other area is having a good run. The same can be said for the East and their mining industry, nothing ever went west from those royalties. The money you are talking about taking will just get pissed away in other areas while Alberta pays for it, again. Quote
takeanumber Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Why not Alberta? Ummmm. Because that's in the constitution. Why try to change the deal? Because it's inconvinient for Ontario? Must be nice to be from Ontario and think that confederation revolves around you. Quote
jay74 Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Must agree with Stoker on this one. I realize that the rest of Canada can't stand Alberta. That's OK. We are doing just fine here. We've have learned our lesson from the past, though. If ROC wants a piece of us, come and get it. Just don't plead innocence when we LEAVE. Quote
kimmy Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Once upon a time, Sarnia was Canada's oil capital... Western Ontario was Canada's storehouse of mineral wealth... and the only think people thought was under Albertan soil was more dirt. So of course provincial control of resources seemed like a good idea at the time Who says Albertans are the only ones blessed with this chance gift of geography? Saskatchewan has oil reserves of its own. I believe BC has enormous amounts of natural gas. What about the east coast's off-shore oil? What about other chance gifts of geography? What about the vast amounts of mineral wealth under the Canadian Shield, or Quebec's enormous potential for generating clean electricity? Or other natural resources like fisheries and forests? -kimmy Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ノ(° -°ノ)
jay74 Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Ah, kimmy, you always make great points. Take that ROC. Quote
August1991 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Report Posted September 6, 2004 Why should Ontario and Quebec get money from royalties when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it?The Albertan government hasn't done anything to deserve the royalties either.What about other chance gifts of geography? What about the vast amounts of mineral wealth under the Canadian Shield, or Quebec's enormous potential for generating clean electricity? Or other natural resources like fisheries and forests?How does that change anything? Other jurisdictions in the world obtain the royalties from natural resources in different ways. I see no obvious reason for the roylaties to go to the provincial governments, and many reasons for them to go to the federal government.The royalties from oil and natural gas are far and away greater than from any other natural resource. In the case of fish, none unfortunately are collected. What about the east coast's off-shore oil?Indeed, the federal government collects all royalties on offshore oil.Once upon a time, Sarnia was Canada's oil capital... Western Ontario was Canada's storehouse of mineral wealth... and the only think people thought was under Albertan soil was more dirt. So of course provincial control of resources seemed like a good idea at the timeI have not found any reference to support the idea that kerosene influenced the framers of the Constitution. But who cares anyway, that's not my point.At present, the provincial Albertan government is winning a lottery every day. This game is rigged. I see no reason for that to continue. The federal government has the means to collect the difference between exploration/production costs and the market price. In fact, it does this now in part. More fundamentally, provincial governments should tax those activities over which they can have an effect by their policies. ---- Reading through this thread, I see comments from posters who don't realize that Canada is one of the few countries where local jurisdictions receive oil royalties. And those same posters are quick to blame Quebec for supposedly using the federal government to get what it wants. In Canada, we have the official CBC/Liberal Party prozac version and then we have reality. A bunch of children afraid anyone will touch their toys which, I must note, were gifts in the first place. And the biggest babies apparently are Albertans. Quote
DAC Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 I see no obvious reason for the roylaties to go to the provincial governments, and many reasons for them to go to the federal government. (Offshore oil royalties do.) For a start, I think you will find that off-shore royalties go to the provincial governments. Nova Scotia’s upset (it’s where I live now) is that the benefits then get clawed back by the feds through reduced equalization payments. But think through the whole issue. It everything like that goes to the feds, then the benefits of the power projects in northern Quebec should also go to the feds; stump age fees on trees cut should go to the feds ... Where is there any natural place to draw a line? A big part of our present political problems lies in the fact that the feds have the money, and the provinces are responsible for the expensive work – health care, education, welfare ... Transferring more resources to the feds just makes it worse. Quote
playfullfellow Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 In Canada, we have the official CBC/Liberal Party prozac version and then we have reality. A bunch of children afraid anyone will touch their toys which, I must note, were gifts in the first place. And the biggest babies apparently are Albertans August, part of the reason Alberta gets upset when others talk about our resources is because we can say, "been there, done that". It didn't work out very well for Alberta the last time so why would it be any better this time? As pointed out by others, in return for not having to pay out these royalties, the transfer payments back to Alberta are greatly reduced. As for Albertans being babies, look in the mirror, someone has a better toy than you at the moment and you want it so you figure you should be able just to take it away. Quote
I miss Reagan Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 The wealthiest province in Canada (Ontario) can't keep it's own house in order so they want to steal it from us. I'll add my support to Stoker and Jay and say bring it on. Any more fuel to the alienation fire is welcome from the point of view of this Alberta Seperatist. Quote "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war." -Karl Rove
The Terrible Sweal Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 What about other chance gifts of geography? What about the vast amounts of mineral wealth under the Canadian Shield, or Quebec's enormous potential for generating clean electricity? Or other natural resources like fisheries and forests? Exactly. Just as the lead post asks ... what is the purpose of this absurd geographic approach to windfall and woe? What purposes do provinces actually serve except to prevent Canada from working as a unit? Quote
takeanumber Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Three letters: NEP. Twenty + years after the fact, Albertans are still pissed. Just try to bring back the NEP and see what happens. It would be enough to break up the country. Confederation wouldn't be able to handle it. It says in the constitution that the provinces have control. Because of the ammending formula, you need Alberta's permission to change it. Good luck trying to change the constitution. Quote
The Terrible Sweal Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Three letters:NEP. Twenty + years after the fact, Albertans are still pissed. Just try to bring back the NEP and see what happens. It would be enough to break up the country. Confederation wouldn't be able to handle it. It says in the constitution that the provinces have control. Because of the ammending formula, you need Alberta's permission to change it. Good luck trying to change the constitution. Alberta does not own the oil, so it doesn't matter if Albertans get pissed off if the federal government asserts its legitimate jurisdiction for the benefit of all Canadians. Alberta's whining about the NEP is such utter crapola it should be embarrassing for them. Boo hoo, Alberta had tough economic times during the energy crisis. Well guess what? So did a lot of other people. As to breaking up the country, no. Alberta can't separate. Quote
Stoker Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 As to breaking up the country, no. Alberta can't separate Why? Could Quebec if it wanted? I'll reiterate, I hope the Ottawa does this, as I also hope that the east plunders any oil and natural gas that BC has.....likewise with Sask......take the Yukon's and N.W.T resources......there are diamond mines up North, perhaps King Martin could make a crown and scepter Quote The beaver, which has come to represent Canada as the eagle does the United States and the lion Britain, is a flat-tailed, slow-witted, toothy rodent known to bite off it's own testicles or to stand under its own falling trees. -June Callwood-
maplesyrup Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 Just because some Albertans whine and complain about the National Energy Program doesn't mean it wasn't a great program. We need lots more similar type programs in Canada to spread our wealth around, so that we will have a fair and just society. Affluent people always cry when you ask them to share their wealth - it's just human nature for some folks to be too greedy. The NEP was one of the things that Trudeau did that I respected him for, more than almost anything else. Finally we had a politician that stood up to the rich cats. It is just too bad we haven't had any political leaders since with the courage that Trudeau showed - he walked the talk. Quote An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you do know and what you don't. Anatole France
The Terrible Sweal Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 As to breaking up the country, no. Alberta can't separate Why? Could Quebec if it wanted? Merely if it wanted? No. But Alberta and Saskatchewan even less-so. Quote
I miss Reagan Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 MS are you for real LOL. Sometimes I wonder if you're just a troller trying to inspire us rightists to fire back at your insanity. I wish there were more like you in the public spouting off these kind of comments. It would truly give us separatists enough power to follow through. Quote "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war." -Karl Rove
The Terrible Sweal Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 MS are you for real LOL. Sometimes I wonder if you're just a troller trying to inspire us rightists to fire back at your insanity. I wish there were more like you in the public spouting off these kind of comments. It would truly give us separatists enough power to follow through. You have no such power. Alberta can't separate. Quote
Stoker Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 You have no such power. Alberta can't separate Why? Quote The beaver, which has come to represent Canada as the eagle does the United States and the lion Britain, is a flat-tailed, slow-witted, toothy rodent known to bite off it's own testicles or to stand under its own falling trees. -June Callwood-
I miss Reagan Posted September 6, 2004 Report Posted September 6, 2004 "You have no such power. Alberta can't separate. You will listen to us who are born to govern you lowly uneducated Albertans. Listen to me a wise and inspired liberal who knows what is best for you." Quote "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war." -Karl Rove
August1991 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Report Posted September 6, 2004 MS said: Affluent people always cry when you ask them to share their wealth - it's just human nature for some folks to be too greedy. IMR replied: MS are you for real LOL. Sometimes I wonder if you're just a troller trying to inspire us rightists to fire back at your insanity. I wish there were more like you in the public spouting off these kind of comments. It would truly give us separatists enough power to follow through. I rarely (if ever) agree with MS. And frankly, I don't see this as "sharing" someone else's wealth. But I'll agree with MS for once. What did the Albertan government do to deserve this wealth? It is not as if someone in Alberta worked and created it. It's not even as if someone in Albertans' ancestry worked and created it. This was a chance gift. That's all. People have noted the NEP. Well, the economy went into a recession in the early 1980s and things were bad every where, not just Alberta. But Trudeau was standing up to the Albertan government in a perfectly constitutional way. The idea that Alberta is paying everyone else's way in this country is nonsense. Quote
theloniusfleabag Posted September 7, 2004 Report Posted September 7, 2004 Dear August1991, What did the Albertan government do to deserve this wealth? It is not as if someone in Alberta worked and created it. It's not even as if someone in Albertans' ancestry worked and created it. This was a chance gift. That's allYou are dancing very close to commie-nism here. I am surprised. Why would 'above vs. below' ground resources be any different? Should the 'farmers land' above an oil deposit belong to all Canadians too? You might as well (we all should) ask "What is a border anyway?If Alberta (or Quebec) wants to secede, it will probably have to be done by force of arms, the traditional standby that defines 'property ownership'. Many have said, "If the people of Quebec want to separate, let them. They just can't take any Canadian land with them". It is like a teenager leaving home, they cannot take their bedroom with them. Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
August1991 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Report Posted September 7, 2004 You are dancing very close to commie-nism here. I am surprised. Why would 'above vs. below' ground resources be any different? Should the 'farmers land' above an oil deposit belong to all Canadians too?This is not communism at all. The farmer owns the land (at least the surface) and provides any effort to produce anything.The Albertan government has arbitrarily said that it will impose special taxes (royalty payments) on any oil taken out of the ground. (Why does it do this? Because it can.) My question is why not let the federal government impose this kind of tax. IMV, provincial governments should raise tax revenues from activities more closely related to their own policies. Quote
theloniusfleabag Posted September 7, 2004 Report Posted September 7, 2004 Dear Agust1991, The farmer owns the land (at least the surface)How far down? What has the farmer done to 'own the surface' that he did not do to own what is underneath? Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
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