-TSS- Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 Today is the day of regional elections in the Spanish province of Catalonia. If the nationalists win a majority they will hold a referendum on whether the province should secede from Spain. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20482719 Catalonia is the wealthiest part of Spain and given the current economic problems of Spain the region feels their burden is both unfair and too much. The Catalans have their own language and also in every other respect they are just as much diferent from Spain as, say, Portugal. Quote
wyly Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 well that would certainly end spains reign as world and european soccer champions.... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 the Basque region can't break away but Catalonia can?....this is tricky spain didn't want to recognize kosovo independence from serbia because it would set a precedence for Catalonia and Basque regions...maybe the EU will be the rational influence that allows it to happen... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 Catalonia was a Republican area while the Basque region was Nationalist...it might have some roots in that. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
-TSS- Posted November 25, 2012 Author Report Posted November 25, 2012 Well, that's it about a new country in Europe. The nationalists have suffered severe setbacks in the election. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20482719 Quote
Canuckistani Posted November 25, 2012 Report Posted November 25, 2012 Sanity prevailed. As it inevitably does in Quebec. Quote
jbg Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Sanity prevailed. As it inevitably does in Quebec. 50.1% "non" to 49.9% "oui" was not comforting. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 50.1% "non" to 49.9% "oui" was not comforting. Yet sanity prevailed. And people have the right of self determination. Better to do it through politics than through violence. Quote
jbg Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Yet sanity prevailed. And people have the right of self determination. Better to do it through politics than through violence. On the other hand, the way we did it between 1861 and 1865 stamped out serious attempts to secede for good. Secession had become part of the lexicon from about 1830 or 1832 on. The threat of a part of the country to "take its marbles and go home" is not at all healthy for democracy.Think about it. Texas desperately pleaded for accession to the Union in 1844 when, as the independent Republic of Texas it became deeply indebted and deeply impoverished. Wasn't secession in late 1860 and early 1861, with those debts assumed and paid, a bit rich? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 On the other hand, the way we did it between 1861 and 1865 stamped out serious attempts to secede for good. Regardless, violent revolution is not the proper means to an end. Are you saying that it was a good idea for the south to unilaterally secede and force the country into a civil war? The threat of a part of the country to "take its marbles and go home" is not at all healthy for democracy. Probably not.... but the ill effects have been exaggerated. Wasn't secession in late 1860 and early 1861, with those debts assumed and paid, a bit rich? Sure. But that still doesn't justify a terrible war. Negotiation and politics would be a better way to settle such matters. Quote
wyly Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 Sanity prevailed. As it inevitably does in Quebec. what ? unless i read the link wrong the separatists won...and now they move on to discussions with spain... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
The_Squid Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) what ? unless i read the link wrong the separatists won...and now they move on to discussions with spain... I can see how you can read this as the separatists won..... Catalonia election: Separatists win majority Voters in Spain's Catalonia region have given a majority to parties seeking Catalan independence. Edited November 26, 2012 by The_Squid Quote
jbg Posted November 26, 2012 Report Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) Regardless, violent revolution is not the proper means to an end. Are you saying that it was a good idea for the south to unilaterally secede and force the country into a civil war?No. It was a terrible idea. Particularly over a depraved cause such as the preservation of slavery. I can't think of a worse reason.Probably not.... but the ill effects have been exaggerated.Not really. The problem is that democracy becomes a "heads I win tails you lose" proposition. Think about what would happen to Canada if Alberta let itself be rescued and then now, flush with oil revenues and along with Saskatchewan one of Canada's few "have" provinces decided to secede (see related thread, link). For the rest of my response on this, see below. Sure. But that still doesn't justify a terrible war. Negotiation and politics would be a better way to settle such matters. My pet view of the Civil War is that if Virginia hadn't seceded the matter would have been resolved by negotiation. Let me explain.Lincoln was elected President in early November 1860. In December 1860 and early January 1861, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas (the "Deep South States") seceded in rapid order. Then, little happened. Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. The opening shots over the resupply of Fort Sumter were fired in early April 1861. Lincoln mustered troops from all remaining states, but sought smaller contingents from Virginia, Tennessee, Arkansas and North Carolina (the "Later Seceding States") and Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware and Missouri, the non-seceding slave states on the outer fringe of the Confederacy , along with, for some reason, (the "Border States"). The Later Seceding States, in rapid succession, left the Union rather than fight other slave states. Maryland and Kentucky were kept in the Union by being more or less occupied by Union forces before they could secede. Missouri itself remained a battleground though it never seceded. Virginia was one of the more prosperous states and one of the few that could actually help fund the Rebellion. That, combined with the sight of Confederate flags waving in the breeze across a rather narrow (at that point) Potomac River from the nation's capital ratcheted up the pressure for total war. Had Virginia not gone out on either April 17 or 19, 1861 the Civil War as we know it may never have happened. Just my theory. Edited November 26, 2012 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
-TSS- Posted November 27, 2012 Author Report Posted November 27, 2012 CiU which is the ruling party in catalonia and supports the idea of independence had 62/135 seats in the earlier parliament. Now they only received 50 seats. That is considered a major setback for independence. However, they are not the only ones supporting independence. It could have had an effect on the way how people voted that the EU said that an independent Catalonia would have to apply for EU-membership if it wishes to belong to the EU. It wouldn't be automatically included. I wonder would the same thinking apply to an independent Scotland as well. Quote
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