login Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) So, it seems undobuted that Palastine is due for statehood....at the upcoming UN assembly on the 29th, the same way Israel got statehood. Comments... This is a real game changer http://www.guardian....uropean-backing "Israel has been intensively lobbying EU states against recognition and has issued threats against the Palestinian leadership, including saying it will seek to overthrow the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas," Edited November 22, 2012 by login Quote
scribblet Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 More here, the U.S. is also pressuring them to stop the bid. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=286660 Israel has opposed all Palestinian unilateral statehood bids at the UN, fearing that it would harm the peace process by empowering Palestinians to wage a diplomatic war on Israel. Israel has called on the Palestinians to pursue statehood through a negotiated two-state solution that would end the conflict between them. “We hope the Palestinians will seriously rethink their strategy,” an Israeli official told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday. “If they chose to do this it will be a mistake. It will hurt peace and it will not bring the realization of a Palestinian state forward, it will push it back,” the official said. Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
cybercoma Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Please, please negotiate with us. It'll work the billionth time. Honest! Quote
dre Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 More here, the U.S. is also pressuring them to stop the bid. http://www.jpost.com....aspx?id=286660 Israel has opposed all Palestinian unilateral statehood bids at the UN, fearing that it would harm the peace process by empowering Palestinians to wage a diplomatic war on Israel. Israel has called on the Palestinians to pursue statehood through a negotiated two-state solution that would end the conflict between them. “We hope the Palestinians will seriously rethink their strategy,” an Israeli official told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday. “If they chose to do this it will be a mistake. It will hurt peace and it will not bring the realization of a Palestinian state forward, it will push it back,” the official said. Hurt the peace process? ROFLMAO. THere is no peace process. We have the most moderate palestinian authority in the west bank, willing to recognize Israel, and an almost complete cessation of violence from there, and settlement building and theft continues. There is absolutely nothing the palestinians can do to negotiate a two state solution with Israel. Its a completely and utter non starter. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Israel has been intensively lobbying EU states against recognition and has issued threats against the Palestinian leadership, including saying it will seek to overthrow the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, if the general assembly vote goes ahead. This about says it all. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Please, please negotiate with us. It'll work the billionth time. Honest! ya just another 40 years more of "negotiating" and west bank will completely inundated with illegal settlements and the Palestinians will be confined to fenced in camps... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 from the link.... Israel believes the Palestinians have the support of up to seven EU countries – Ireland, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, Cyprus and Malta – but wants to maximise the number of nations opposing the resolution. It particularly wants to secure the opposition of the "big three" – Britain, France and Germany. None has yet declared how it will vote, but the French president, François Hollande, told a Paris press conference on Tuesday he could not rule out the possibility of France supporting the Palestinian initiative. The Israeli foreign ministry sent a diplomatic cable on Sunday to all Israeli representatives across the globe warning that the Palestinian resolution was a "clear violation of the fundamental principle of negotiations". Britain and France have already recognized the Syrian rebels but that isn't considered a threat to negotiations and strangely our government isn't declaring the Syrian rebels as a terrorist organization like Hamas ...the hypocrisy in politics defies belief at times how do politicians espouse crap like that and keep a straight face...and how does the media let them get away with it... when palestine gets accepted I may take the time to install it's flag as my avatar... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted November 22, 2012 Report Posted November 22, 2012 Sounds good, I suppose, under certain conditions that Israel should be able to dictate. Security vs Jordan for one. Assurance the WB won't become another launching pad for terror being another. Statehood should make all those "illegal" settlements "legal". It can start out as a cosmopolitan state where everybody gets along. End-running Israel isn't going to be helpful, though. They do hold the keys no matter any UN resolution or decree. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Sounds good, I suppose, under certain conditions that Israel should be able to dictate. Security vs Jordan for one. Assurance the WB won't become another launching pad for terror being another. Statehood should make all those "illegal" settlements "legal". It can start out as a cosmopolitan state where everybody gets along. End-running Israel isn't going to be helpful, though. They do hold the keys no matter any UN resolution or decree. End running Israel is the ONLY thing thats going to be helpful. Bilateral negotiations are over... nobody with a brain believes they are going to work at this point, and Israel has absolutely interest in them working. Why would they negotiate for a palestinian state on land they want for themselves? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Why would they negotiate for a palestinian state on land they want for themselves? or negotiate giving back the palestinians their water and leaving the settlements, negotiating is not in their plans... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
DogOnPorch Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 End running Israel is the ONLY thing thats going to be helpful. Bilateral negotiations are over... nobody with a brain believes they are going to work at this point, and Israel has absolutely interest in them working. Why would they negotiate for a palestinian state on land they want for themselves? Because they started a war of extermination and lost. Germany didn't dictate terms. It should be resolved...but the Arabs don't get a do-over. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Hudson Jones Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 It took some time to realize that Apartheid South African government could not be negotiated with. It's the same thing with Israel and those who are driving its policies. The international community will have to continue to put pressure on our governments to do the right thing. The boycott movement continues to get stronger and the Jews living in the West are having a hard time relating to Israel's actions. Majority are liberal and care about human rights. It should also be mentioned that some of the leading activists against Israel's oppression of Palestinians are Jewish. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Palestinian Statehood won't change anything. A state is only as good as its ability to defend its territory. When Israel disputes its borders, they'll continue to lob rockets back and forth at each other. Israel vs Palestine is the Forever War. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 I'd like to know how they can become a recognized state when their borders are in dispute - and they have terrorist leadership. Is this what the UN now recognizes? And to what purpose? Quote
wyly Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Palestinian Statehood won't change anything. A state is only as good as its ability to defend its territory. When Israel disputes its borders, they'll continue to lob rockets back and forth at each other. Israel vs Palestine is the Forever War. it changes rules the way the issue is addressed in the UN, it's significant....non-member state status would empower Palestinian officials to seek recourse at the International Criminal Court. In theory, Palestinians could use the forum in order to bring action against Israel for what they view as violations of international law regarding their treatment in the West Bank and Gaza, including war crimes and the construction of Jewish settlements. if the UN General assembly were to grant Palestine state observer status, the ICC might just stretch a legal interpretation and extend its jurisdiction to the West Bank and Gaza. This would be a major victory for the Palestinian strategy, opening up the possibility of Israeli political and military actors being brought before the ICC, a risk that Israel is keen to avoid. Edited November 23, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Because they started a war of extermination and lost. Germany didn't dictate terms. It should be resolved...but the Arabs don't get a do-over. The problem is thats simply not true of the contlict post armistice. And the people living in Palestine today had nothing to do with any of the decisions made in the 1940's by people in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 I'd like to know how they can become a recognized state when their borders are in dispute - and they have terrorist leadership. Is this what the UN now recognizes? And to what purpose? Gaza has terrorist leadership but not the west bank. They need to be treated as two totally separate entities. And their borders are not up for any real dispute. No country on earth recognizes the west bank as being Israeli territory... not even Israel. The purpose would be to hasten the end of the brutal military occupation of millions of people, and end to a heinous injustice that has left millions of people stateless... both unable to form their own government on their own territory and unable to participate in the government that controls it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Guest Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 And it would stop all the rockets, and Israel would be able to pull down the wall because nobody would want to be a suicide bomber anymore. Aw, man, it's going to be great! Quote
dre Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 And it would stop all the rockets, and Israel would be able to pull down the wall because nobody would want to be a suicide bomber anymore. Aw, man, it's going to be great! That would depend how it was implemented. But a new palestinian state would need a lot of help from nations in the UN, and one of the conditions could be that thousands of international troops be stationed in the new state with a mandate to crush any hostility origionating from either side. The reality is that the government in the west bank has already had great success stopping rocket attacks from there. As for Gaza UN backed statehood isnt in the cards until theres a government there that the international community can work with. Thats why its so important that the West Bank be recognized as a state right now. All of ISraels excuses for maintaining the occupation there have dried up. We have the most moderate leadership there in history, willing to take on their own militants, and recognize Israel... yet the occupation and illegal settlement building increases. If this continues palestinians will simply have no reason to vote for moderates, and political extremists will be greatly empowered. Theyve been told all this time that the occupation would end if they stopped the violence and recognized Israels right to exist... Its going to become obvious to people there pretty soon that that was a lie. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 The problem is thats simply not true of the contlict post armistice. And the people living in Palestine today had nothing to do with any of the decisions made in the 1940's by people in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. Too bad actual history doesn't reflect that. In 1947 the Mufti and crew rejected the UN Partition and in 1948 the Arab world invaded the new state of Israel with one intention...its destruction. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Too bad actual history doesn't reflect that. In 1947 the Mufti and crew rejected the UN Partition and in 1948 the Arab world invaded the new state of Israel with one intention...its destruction. I said POST-ARMISTICE... The territory where palestinians live today was not occupied during that conflict, and 90% of palestinians today were not even alive then. And most of the ones that WERE alive were not even ten years old. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 The territory where palestinians live today was not occupied during that conflict, It most certainly was. Jordan occupied the WB and Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip. and 90% of palestinians today were not even alive then. Guess what? Neither were Israelis. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 it changes rules the way the issue is addressed in the UN, it's significant.... non-member state status would empower Palestinian officials to seek recourse at the International Criminal Court. In theory, Palestinians could use the forum in order to bring action against Israel for what they view as violations of international law regarding their treatment in the West Bank and Gaza, including war crimes and the construction of Jewish settlements. if the UN General assembly were to grant Palestine state observer status, the ICC might just stretch a legal interpretation and extend its jurisdiction to the West Bank and Gaza. This would be a major victory for the Palestinian strategy, opening up the possibility of Israeli political and military actors being brought before the ICC, a risk that Israel is keen to avoid. The ICC is useless if the accused refuses to recognize its authority. Quote
wyly Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) The ICC is useless if the accused refuses to recognize its authority. far from it...arrest warrants severely restrict that nations ability to function internationally...if a warrant was put out for someone like netanyahu he could no longer safely go to europe, s america, half of africa, canada, any of a 121 countries that have signed onto the agreement are obligated to arrest him and turn him over to the ICC...the ICC states would be free to put political and economic pressure on states to surrender suspects just as Serbia was pressured to produce it's accused war criminals... Edited November 23, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
cybercoma Posted November 23, 2012 Report Posted November 23, 2012 Do you think the arrest warrant would be recognized by the world's most powerful countries? Israel has nothing to worry about. Quote
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