Canadians needs a bilingual education

[Argus]

Letting bigots dictate to others in what Canadian language they will be educated and receive government services? NO, NO AND NO

There are some in Quebec who would measure their attachment to Canada to the degree of lattitude they can have in trampling on individual rights. To those I say, "Si vous n'êtes pas contents, la porte est là et bon débarras".

Some in Quebec? By "some" you mean, "the vast majority of Francophone voters in Quebec - and thus in Canada", right?

[CANADIEN]

Argus,

Your denounciation of Quebec's unacceptable language laws (and as I made it clear they are) would sound sincere if it was not for your most evident hatred and bigotry. Plus the fact that you would have loved to go even farther (closing French schools) than the Quebec government (limiting access to English schools). So spare me the crocodile tears, I won't provide the Kleenex.

Instead, do something constructive. Like:

- demonstrate than the Durham Report and think that a swell idea.

- finding the text of Ontario's Regulation 17 and advocate it be made part of the Constitution

- denounce the fact that two decades ago the Supreme Court of Canada ordered the Manitoba government to resume offering the French-language services it had discontinued for more than 90 years in violation of the conditions for its admission in Confederation.

Oops, I forgot, you can't do any of that, all those things are figment of my imagination.

[seabee]

The lady on every canadian coin and on $20 canadian dollar bills,for those who wonder, is of German descent, the Saxe-Coburg and the Hanover, a.k.a. Windsor, a name-change around 1940 by the royal family of England as its citizens resented the Germans with whom they were at war.

So, this German lady, presently queen of the Dominion (a biblical term) of Canada, seems to have as her main function, in the last 35 years, rubber-stamping the decisions of French-canadian federal prime ministers.

[Stoker]

And I'll say the same to you. If the population of the Western provinces would rather cut its ties with one of the greatest countries in the World than to respect the rights of Canadians, here's the door and good riddance.

I've yet to see any reasons why we should pay for French programs, added to the lack of reasons why we (as in the West) should stay in confederation.

Oh sure, there would be economic hardship (on both sides, don't fool yourself), but I wonder how seriously many people around the World would take a new "nation" who proclaimed as it's reason to exist "we had French schools".

Hardships? And what hardships would the West be facing?

Facts

Western Canada is the size of Europe.

Western Canada produces 52% of Canada's fishery, forestry, mining and agricultural revenue with 27% of Canada's population. It produces 90% of Canada's oil, gas and coal.

Western Canada has a common language, and a direct interest in and access to Pacific Rim trade.

There are only three provinces in Canada whose exports consistently exceed their imports in value: B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Two provinces, Ontario and Quebec control two-thirds of the seats in the House of Commons, Senate and Supreme Court. To change this to share power would require their consent, hence patronage and favourable decisions for Ontario and Quebec are inevitable and permanent.

The problems of the bureaucracy of Canada, bilingualism, the cost of government, equalization payments, special status for Quebec and aboriginal peoples, the national debt of Canada, the power of Ontario and Quebec in the Commons and judiciary are only soluble with separation and Independence.

A Western Canadian dollar, backed by Western Canadian resources would be worth twice what Canada's currency is worth today. We could be a prosperous, debt-free and independent nation...but it's up to you!

There might be hardships for you in the East, but I've not seen any evidence to prove that we in the West would feel any....

The lady on every canadian coin and on $20 canadian dollar bills,for those who wonder, is of German descent, the Saxe-Coburg and the Hanover, a.k.a. Windsor, a name-change around 1940 by the royal family of England as its citizens resented the Germans with whom they were at war.

So, this German lady, presently queen of the Dominion (a biblical term) of Canada, seems to have as her main function, in the last 35 years, rubber-stamping the decisions of French-canadian federal prime ministers.

Seabee, do you understand what Anglo-Saxon means?

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

The break-up of a country is a difficult process, politically, socially and economically for all parties involved. Not that I expect you to grasp it.

Now why should Canadians in let's say Vancouver should pay for schools in French? For the same reason canadians in Gaspé should pay for schools in English. Because it is the right of each and every Canadian to receive a publicly-funded education in French or English as he or she individually chooses. That right, and the unacceptable nature of any law restricting it, won't go away because of the ravings of people who don't even want to be Canadians, whether they are in Montreal or sitting in front of your computer.

So you want to go, Stoker (and I mean you personnally), then go. And want to know why the western provinces should remain part of Canada? Because, like it or not, most of its population consider CANADA as their country, not the pseudo-nation of your whinning-induced dreams. Too bad, but looks like you'll have to build your French-free dreamland all by yourself.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear CANADIEN,

I think that the majority of Canadians enjoy having, and would sorely miss, Quebec and French as part of our culture. I myself have been calling to have Marcel Marceau as our next PM. He surely couldn't do a worse job that our recent PMs (last 40 yrs, anyway), anglo or francophone.

[CANADIEN]

thelonius,

As a Canadian I would miss the West. Because it is part of who we are. What I wouldn't miss is anyone there or elsewhere who thinks that being Canadian is not good enough for them.

[Stoker]

Now why should Canadians in let's say Vancouver should pay for schools in French? For the same reason canadians in Gaspé should pay for schools in English. Because it is the right of each and every Canadian to receive a publicly-funded education in French or English as he or she individually chooses. That right, and the unacceptable nature of any law restricting it, won't go away because of the ravings of people who don't even want to be Canadians, whether they are in Montreal or sitting in front of your computer.

Do you know what Democracy means?

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2 : a political unit that has a democratic government

3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.

4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

If the majority of people out west don't want French education programs, why should they? And if the majority of Canadians wanted English as the sole offical language, why shouldn't they have their wish?

So you want to go, Stoker (and I mean you personnally), then go. And want to know why the western provinces should remain part of Canada? Because, like it or not, most of its population consider CANADA as their country, not the pseudo-nation of your whinning-induced dreams. Too bad, but looks like you'll have to build your French-free dreamland all by yourself.

Whats "most of the population"? You have rocks in your head if you don't feel that Western Alienation is real.....what about the Quebec separatists? Now I don't disagree that most Canadians consider Canada their country........for now.

[Guest eureka]

Stoker! Democracy is when power is vested in all the people. That is not the same as "the majority." That is why the importance of protecting minority rights is paramount. It is more important than "majority" rule and without it there is no democracy.

Your quotes from the fringe Western Canada Concept II take it that is where they are from) are not accurate. The stats on production etc. are inaccurate.

[JWayne625]

I really hope that none of you here really believe Canada to be democratic, because if you do I've got some ocean-front property to sell you in Arizona. No government as far back as I can remember has been elected because they were honest and truthful, especially with the promises they made to the electorate to get elected. None have any intentions of keeping those promises, and if you believe they will, you're dumber that I thought.

In Can-a-Dah we get to put new dictators in place for the next term, and in most cases people vote for who they think will do the least harm, not who they think will actually follow through on promises they made on the election trail, because rational people really don't expect these lying sack's of ---- to really fulfill their promises. Our political system is set up that a party can form the government even though they garnered less that 40% of the votes. I don't call that democratic representation. How can a party claim to have a mandate from the people to govern when less than 40% of the electorate voted for them? Why are we allowing judges to make our laws instead of elected and accountable politicians, especially since the people have no way of making these judges accountable for their decisions. That smacks of a dictatorship, not a democracy.

[Bakunin]

I agree with stoker and of course the dictionnary wich is always right

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

since canada has free elections through a system of representation, it is a democracy.

But the word "democracy" in the dictionnary and the word "democracy" used in the common language doesnt mean the same thing, it means more (equality, morality, freedom, not corrupt, the ideal society). I think what JWayne means when he say that Canada is not democractic is that it is not democratic in the common language we use.But it is Democratic, its just we don't use the correct definition for the word.

I understand Stoker that you don't want to pay for french education but for x, y and z good and bad reason, some people decided to create an artificial society with 2 major natural society and a few more little one. 1 French and 1 English. Since it was a democracy, thei were so called equal in power. Then for x, y, and z bad and good reason they created 1 structure to maintain 2 society which is not common. In that structure the Majority of the democracy is different for each case. You complain because the east has the majority of the government, the french complain because the english has the majority of the government and etc...

So for x, y and z good and bad reason Canada is an artificial society with weird laws to protect the minority of the french society who live in the english society and the minority of the english society who live in the french society, wich has a money cost and deregularize a society. Blind people won't understand that and will always be ready to fight for the minority of a democracy wich is quite normal since we all have heart and want to respect each others and want to be nice but technically, yes your right ! the Canadian system fail often to maintain 2 society or more in 1 artificial society. Sometime their are sensless law and sometime their are law we don't agree on but its part of the blindness of trudeau and chretiens vision of 1 canadian society wich we are stuck with....

[maplesyrup]

Trudeau and Chretien were not blind, they had a vision for Canada that more and more Canadians are beginning to appreciate.

Time for Canada including Quebec to lose this small town thinking, eh!

[Bakunin]

Its a nice vision but its uthopic.

You can't use 1 system for 2 nation without many compromise.

What we must ask us is does it worth it so much ? wouldn't we apreciate more each others if we had our own system and then associate on winner-winner issue.

[CANADIEN]

Stoker,

As I said before, a society that tramples on individual rights because the majority wishes to do so may look like democracy, but it is nothing more than a dictatorship by majority fiat.

And where does it stop?

Would forbidding members of First Nations to vote be democratic, if the majority wanted it?

And how about laws denying citizens the right to vote for being born in a country they fled because of ethnic persecution?

And laws prohibiting people from entering certain buildings because of the color of their skin?

And the forcible sterilization of people with intellectual disabilities?

And racial (i should say racist) quotas in immigration?

Laws doing just that have existed at a moment or another throughout the history of our country. Those laws had the support of the majority of the population. Tell me, Stoker, were they democratic law?

And it's not a pick and choose proposition. Either the violation of individual rights with the approval of the majority is always democratic or it is never.

[maplesyrup]

Its a nice vision but its uthopic.

You can't use 1 system for 2 nation without many compromise.

What we must ask us is does it worth it so much ? wouldn't we apreciate more each others if we had our own system and then associate on winner-winner issue.

There is nothing of any substance that Canada currently prevents Quebeckers from doing presently, that they would be able to do if it were a separate country.

All this is about is a power grab by the elite in Quebec, nothing more, and nothing less. Do you really believe Quebeckers would be better off outside Canada?

Quebeckers need to stop whining all day long, year after year. Quebec has had two referedums, more than probably most other societies in the world would allow. It is now time to get on with your lives within the Canadian society, otherwise eventually the army will be brought in. Is that what you want? Last time the violence came from the separatists, the next time it will come from the federales.

Allowing these referendums in the first place was a huge mistake as it has opened up a whole can of worms. It is time to put the genie back in the bottle so to speak.

[Argus]

Your denounciation of Quebec's unacceptable language laws (and as I made it clear they are) would sound sincere if it was not for your most evident hatred and bigotry.

Well, here's the thing, my "most evident hatred and bigotry" is actually milder than that of the vast majority of Francophones in Canada. You can say you're not a Quebecer, and that's fine. But the reality is that all this country's efforts at bending over backwards on language issues is aimed at Francophones, and 90% of Francophons are in Quebec. Without Quebec there aren't nearly enough Francophones to justify official bilingualism. So we're doing all this for them - and they, in response, spit on us. They consistently vote in governments which are bigoted and biased against Anglos, and support laws which violate the human rights of anglos. So spare me your moralizing about my alleged bigotry and hatred. The French are the bigots and I'm simply the echo of that bigotry.

[Argus]

Trudeau and Chretien were not blind, they had a vision for Canada that more and more Canadians are beginning to appreciate.

Time for Canada including Quebec to lose this small town thinking, eh!

What was that vision? Let me guess, a great, big fat piggy bank they and their friends could loot! Right? Two more corrupt men have never soiled the marble walkways of Parliament.

[CANADIEN]

Bakunin,

Or course... only blind people believe in tolerance, compromise and the respect of individual rights. Whatever.

Your eyes may to be open, but there is nothing unnatural about French-speaking communities in the Maritimes older than Quebec and that survived deportation. In communities in the Windsor area that existed before Chicoutimi. In communities throughout the West. Or in English-speaking communities in Coaticook, in Gaspé, in Trois-Rivières.

Those communities are made up of CANADIANS, with the same rights, linguistic rights included, through all our country. Shame on anyone who seeks to take that away.

[CANADIEN]

Argus,

Thank you for reminding me of who I am with that phrase "The French are the bigots". Not French-speaking Canadians, we all noted, since it is evident that I do not deserve to be called a Canadian. Not some, not most, "The"... all French-speaking Canadians.

I never realized that, since the moment I said my first words (or is it genetic?), my goal in life has been to spit on the Anglos, rob the Anglos, get lazy at the Anglos' expense, negate to the Anglos their rights, lie about the Anglos, vote only for federal parties led by non-Anglos (never voted Bloc or Liberal, btw, but since I am French, my bulletin probaly changed itself once in the ballot box). Do I forget everything?

Thank you for that, and for confirming what is evident about you.

[Bakunin]

Or course... only blind people believe in tolerance, compromise and the respect of individual rights. Whatever.

Those communities are made up of CANADIANS, with the same rights, linguistic rights included, through all our country. Shame on anyone who seeks to take that away.

What im saying is it was a mistake and now we can't do anything about it. Just take a look at a normal country like usa, mexico, the french the spanish etc.. are those country stuck with language problem ? no. We have a problem because canada is made out of different society and in between society. I talk about society because i dont want to use the word province because in many province their are 1 or more society. Its not a good idea because we can't fullfill their needs correctly.

I talk about tolerance compromise and respect because i think we want evryone in our society to have equal right and feel at home but i think in a way we are blind when we think that we can form 1 society. We are way too much different.

[I miss Reagan]

Exactly. We have the never-ending problem of separation because of our cultural mosaic rather than a melting pot. Then result becomes everyone from the natives to the Quebeckers to the religious zealots whineing for special status.

[CANADIEN]

"Normal" Mexico, Bakunin, has known more revolutions than the Canadians have won Stanley Cups. Racial intolerance has been a regular feature throughout the history of the "normal" United States, up to and including a Civil War.

Joe Clark, in probably his only good insight throughout a career of dedicated and honest although incredibly bumbling services to Canada, once described our country as a "community of communities". A place where differences are acknowledged, not by building walls around silos where only those who "fit in" are granted membership, but by recognizing and respecting the rights of each individual.

Some will say that going that way makes this country "abnormal". I will take it any day before what you, Argus and Stoker have to offer.

[Bakunin]

Exactly. We have the never-ending problem of separation because of our cultural mosaic rather than a melting pot. Then result becomes everyone from the natives to the Quebeckers to the religious zealots whineing for special status.

We just have to look at russia and tchetchenia, we all know that there will be terrorist act and violence has long aas the russian keep refusing tchetchenia independance. There is no point for russia to continue fighting out there but blindness and hate.

In quebec its similar about the political system. Its simply not working and we don't like it and wheiter people like it or not, we will have to change it one day, especially in a democracy. But the beauty of the thing is that it doesn't have to be a confrontation, We could all get our part of the pie and live happily ever after but for some reason specially because we don't know each others well enough, we will problably keep fighting untill the country break down.

[CANADIEN]

Of course, IMR (btw, if you object to my acronym, "I miss (...), let me know).

Equality of rights for all means of course special status for some. And the melting pot is way much better than acknowledgement and respect of diversity. After all, we all know that there is far less racial tensions in the great American melting pot than here.

[CANADIEN]

You want Quebec's sovereignty, Bakunin? Try convincing the 60%+ of Quebecers who consider Canada to be their country.

Or you can try convince me that it is right for the Quebec government to limit access to English language schools (if you agree with that, of course). Those who advocated closing publicly-funded French schools in the rest of Canada keep failing to make their "point", so its time for others to try.

I will only add this to what I have already said. Quebecers have the right to choose by themselves, independently from government interference, to choose a publicly-funded schooling in French OR English, not only as Canadians, but also as QUEBECERS.