58% of Muslims want criticism of Islam Illegal!

[DogOnPorch]

i like to confront hypocrites, zealots and those who are selective about what they deem to be acceptable and not acceptable. some people in this thread have a purpose and that is to further their tribalistic and nationalistic agenda by propagating and spreading misinformation and half-truths. people like bonam, dogonmufti, our resident leftist, american woman, jbg and my favourite character, mr. canada (the resident rightwing nutjob).

so no, i'm not attacking jews. i love jews. some of my favourite people in this world are jewish.

Bud does view the Mufti as a character akin to Santa Claus. Not real...but brings gifts.

[The_Squid]

Oh really? When's the last time you heard of a stoning and who did it? It is in the Bible....

So you contend that no Christians take the bible literally?

http://www.ukzambians.co.uk/home/2012/01/13/stoning-to-death-of-a-defenceless-70-year-old-woman-and-her-80-year-old-husband-stop-that-violence-now/

[Mr.Canada]

So you contend that no Christians take the bible literally?

http://www.ukzambian...t-violence-now/

The difference is that the majority of Christians in the US or Canada for that matter are taking it literally in comparison to Muslims. When 58% of Christians are taking the Bible literally I'll stand with you in outrage as a Christian myself.

[The_Squid]

Where do you get that 58% of Muslims take the Koran literally? Do you even read what you post before you post it?

[DogOnPorch]

So you contend that no Christians take the bible literally?

http://www.ukzambian...t-violence-now/

Now did I say that? I could pull 50 separate examples of Islamic street justice being dished out to your example of African tribal violence. You contend that MANY Christians want some similar treatment done to those who diss Christ? I say BS. That vast majority of Christians would tell you that Jesus's message is to turn the other cheek.

I'm an atheist.

[cybercoma]

We just saw the "Islamic World" go nuts over a YouTube video and you think your comment holds some weight, eh?

I heard about the Christians in Alabama going nuts over an Atheist Club too. Death threats only matter when they're in someone else's backyard though, I guess.

http://www.southerneddesk.org/the-genesis-of-alabamas-only-hs-freethinkers-club/

[Bonam]

i like to confront hypocrites, zealots and those who are selective about what they deem to be acceptable and not acceptable. some people in this thread have a purpose and that is to further their tribalistic and nationalistic agenda by propagating and spreading misinformation and half-truths. people like bonam....

Lol

[Guest]

I heard about the Christians in Alabama going nuts over an Atheist Club too. Death threats only matter when they're in someone else's backyard though, I guess.

http://www.southerne...ethinkers-club/

I'm sure you can always come up with examples of bad behaviour by any identifiable group that gets its knickers in a twist, but I think it's the sheer volume of material, along with the government and judicial system approval that sets Islam apart. You might get a Christian in the US acting up, and it might be deadly, but you won't get the government executing anyone for blasphemy. You won't get whole villages showing up for a stoning. You won't get an actual police force, paid by the government, locking the doors of a burning girls school and preventing firefighters and rescuers entering because the girls were in their pyjamas.

And you won't get the Mormons blowing up the Jehovah's Witnesses blowing up the Baptists, every freaking day!

Edited November 3, 2012 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

I heard about the Christians in Alabama going nuts over an Atheist Club too. Death threats only matter when they're in someone else's backyard though, I guess.

http://www.southerne...ethinkers-club/

lol...you had to literally dig for that one. A high school in Alabama full of bullies. As Anton would say: Well done.

[kimmy]

WorldNet Daily are insane. Bryan Fischer is a fanatic. Michael Hardner is justifiably skeptical of them.

Some time ago there was a thread about hate-crimes, and the infamous Lictor asked why the murder by dragging of James Byrd by white thugs was a heinous crime that received international news coverage, but a very similar murder of a white woman by a black thug received no coverage at all. The only cites that Lictor could come up with to show that the crime had even happened came from white supremacist websites, so obviously people were skeptical. Except, the murder did happen: after considerable search, I found reference to the murder in a scholarly paper by a legitimate college professor... yet the only media sources that talked about the story were white supremacist sites. They weren't lying, they were talking about an incident that mainstream media didn't want to talk about.

So... while people like WND are not trustworthy, that doesn't mean they should be dismissed out of hand. They conducted a poll to ask a question that most mainstream media sources wouldn't want to ask. Maybe it was a "push poll" or leading preamble was read to the respondents prior to the questions to steer things in the direction that the people who commissioned the poll wanted. Or maybe it was completely legitimate. I can't comment at all on the reputation of Wenzel Strategies. It could be that these results are entirely accurate. If they are, would it be that surprising?

I wouldn't be surprised. A lot of Muslims are immigrants or were raised by immigrants. A lot of Muslims attend mosques where the leaders are immigrants. In short, a lot of Muslims are not far removed from situations where criticism of Islam was considered unthinkable. I think that a lot of Muslims have just not yet become accustomed to our plural western democratic way of life.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

lol...you had to literally dig for that one. A high school in Alabama full of bullies. As Anton would say: Well done.

That some try so hard to find something they think is comparable is rather telling - and something I just don't understand. I also don't understand why people would think it's such a stretch to believe that 58% of Muslims believe it should be illegal to insult Islam/Muhammad. As I pointed out, the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are foreign born, and almost all imams are foreign born - so why not try to understand why a lot of Muslims feel the way they do instead of trying to dismiss it or pretend that it's not true? I'm not even sold on the idea that the 58% is written in stone, but I think it is food for thought. There was even a request in the U.N. for a resolution making it illegal to insult Muhammad worldwide - and the request included all religions. Some feel that religion should be exempt from criticism, from freedom of speech. That is a reality.

[cybercoma]

Who knows what their sampling method was. They didn't post it.

I'm willing to bet that you could sample Christians in a way that would get a similar response rate to similar questions. There are certainly many that think criticism of Christianity is intolerable. Why go the "we're being oppressed" route, if not to invoke human rights codes to stop criticism?

It's stupid when all of them do it, but there are posters here that want to paint this as being particular to Muslims. It's not. It's particular to fundamentalists.

[Bonam]

...

So... while people like WND are not trustworthy, that doesn't mean they should be dismissed out of hand. They conducted a poll to ask a question that most mainstream media sources wouldn't want to ask. Maybe it was a "push poll" or leading preamble was read to the respondents prior to the questions to steer things in the direction that the people who commissioned the poll wanted. Or maybe it was completely legitimate. I can't comment at all on the reputation of Wenzel Strategies. It could be that these results are entirely accurate.

Great post kimmy. I was just discussing this same point with cybercoma in another thread. Dismissing a particular piece of research out of hand just because you think the source is biased is just not good debating practice, nor is it a good habit even outside of debates.

[Guest American Woman]

Who knows what their sampling method was. They didn't post it.

It was a national telephone poll, and the margin of error was posted - and the results were broken down by age, gender, political affiliation, political philosophy, and geographic region. It's not as if they found one mosque, walked in, and polled all of the members.

Again. As I've already pointed out, the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are foreign born and the vast majority, ie: almost all, imams are foreign born. You think their opinions don't have any foreign influence? They just moved here and became Americanized in thought, word, and deed?

Edited November 3, 2012 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Who knows what their sampling method was. They didn't post it.

I'm willing to bet that you could sample Christians in a way that would get a similar response rate to similar questions. There are certainly many that think criticism of Christianity is intolerable. Why go the "we're being oppressed" route, if not to invoke human rights codes to stop criticism?

It's stupid when all of them do it, but there are posters here that want to paint this as being particular to Muslims. It's not. It's particular to fundamentalists.

Fine. Then you should have no problem finding multiple examples of crazy azz Christians going bonkers over Jesus being ragged on. You know...killing in the streets and such. Right?

[cybercoma]

Fine. Then you should have no problem finding multiple examples of crazy azz Christians going bonkers over Jesus being ragged on. You know...killing in the streets and such. Right?

I can find many instances of them issuing death threats, killing, or assaulting homosexuals, atheists, women having abortions or their doctors, etc. You know... because they're Godless heathens.

[cybercoma]

It's all the same pile of insane nonsense.

[Guest]

Who knows what their sampling method was. They didn't post it.

I'm willing to bet that you could sample Christians in a way that would get a similar response rate to similar questions. There are certainly many that think criticism of Christianity is intolerable. Why go the "we're being oppressed" route, if not to invoke human rights codes to stop criticism?

It's stupid when all of them do it, but there are posters here that want to paint this as being particular to Muslims. It's not. It's particular to fundamentalists.

You can. There was something on the web recently, at Slate.com I think, that compared Republican attitudes towards women with Islamic attitudes toward women. It was along the lines of "Spot the difference". So you can poll, sample, query, question, statistically show, etc, anything you want.

I don't come by my attitude towards Islam from polls. I come by it from hard news.

Edited November 3, 2012 by bcsapper

[Guest]

I can find many instances of them issuing death threats, killing, or assaulting homosexuals, atheists, women having abortions or their doctors, etc. You know... because they're Godless heathens.

I'm sure you can always come up with examples of bad behaviour by any identifiable group that gets its knickers in a twist, but I think it's the sheer volume of material, along with the government and judicial system approval that sets Islam apart. You might get a Christian in the US acting up, and it might be deadly, but you won't get the government executing anyone for blasphemy. You won't get whole villages showing up for a stoning. You won't get an actual police force, paid by the government, locking the doors of a burning girls school and preventing firefighters and rescuers entering because the girls were in their pyjamas.

And you won't get the Mormons blowing up the Jehovah's Witnesses blowing up the Baptists, every freaking day!

[DogOnPorch]

That some try so hard to find something they think is comparable is rather telling - and something I just don't understand. I also don't understand why people would think it's such a stretch to believe that 58% of Muslims believe it should be illegal to insult Islam/Muhammad. As I pointed out, the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are foreign born, and almost all imams are foreign born - so why not try to understand why a lot of Muslims feel the way they do instead of trying to dismiss it or pretend that it's not true? I'm not even sold on the idea that the 58% is written in stone, but I think it is food for thought. There was even a request in the U.N. for a resolution making it illegal to insult Muhammad worldwide - and the request included all religions. Some feel that religion should be exempt from criticism, from freedom of speech. That is a reality.

As Bill Maher said: "Hmmmmm....cutting your lawn on the Sabbath? I really should kill you."

It just doesn't happen in the 21st century. But relativism would like us to believe that for every crazy loon Muslim, somewhere there's an equally crazy Christian. When 25+ people die due to gunfire related electrocution at a Christian wedding reception...I might actually start believing such things.

Edited November 3, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

I can find many instances of them issuing death threats, killing, or assaulting homosexuals, atheists, women having abortions or their doctors, etc. You know... because they're Godless heathens.

Relativist. Provide actual examples for us to look at.

Show me a riot involving more than 1000 Christians.

[kimmy]

That some try so hard to find something they think is comparable is rather telling - and something I just don't understand.

Just to be clear, that story was posted this week by a popular atheist blogger who is involved with the Secular Students Alliance. There was no particular digging that needed to be done. He's posted a lot of similar stories over the past year.

I also don't understand why people would think it's such a stretch to believe that 58% of Muslims believe it should be illegal to insult Islam/Muhammad. As I pointed out, the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are foreign born, and almost all imams are foreign born - so why not try to understand why a lot of Muslims feel the way they do instead of trying to dismiss it or pretend that it's not true? I'm not even sold on the idea that the 58% is written in stone, but I think it is food for thought.

Agreed with all of this.

There was even a request in the U.N. for a resolution making it illegal to insult Muhammad worldwide - and the request included all religions. Some feel that religion should be exempt from criticism, from freedom of speech. That is a reality.

A few years ago in Canada, when The Western Standard decided to publish the Danish Muhammad cartoons, there were some Christian and Jewish leaders who got together to jointly denounce the mockery of all religion. Just a few weeks ago Todd Starnes from Fox News was asking why the creators of South Park aren't being investigated for blasphemy.

I think that many religious people of all stripes would *like* to stop criticism of religions, but I also think that most who have grown up in our western society understand why it *can't* be made illegal.

-k

[DogOnPorch]

I believe Fox was being facetious. If Obama claims that: "We condemn anyone who denigrates religious faith."...well? Trey and Matt??

[kimmy]

I believe Fox was being facetious. If Obama claims that: "We condemn anyone who denigrates religious faith."...well? Trey and Matt??

He may have been facetious over the idea that there should be a federal investigation, but he's pretty clearly butthurt over "the humiliation" Hollywood has caused Christians.

-k

[DogOnPorch]

He may have been facetious over the idea that there should be a federal investigation, but he's pretty clearly butthurt over "the humiliation" Hollywood has caused Christians.

-k

Do we expect riots? Shall I prepare for the worst?