Guest Peeves Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 http://life.national...tha-saint-2012/ Voodoo ? Using a bone relic is comparable to voodoo I would think. or by me, Shlep kapporos maybe? The deacon said Sister Kateri Mitchell, a Mohawk from the Akwesasne reserve, happened to be visiting the area and was summoned by the family. She had a bone relic of Tekakwitha which was held to Finkbonner’s chest as his family prayed. According to Boyer, at that point the infection stopped spreading and began to heal. Anyway if it worked at least,share the bone already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Not comparable to voodoo or Obeah. You're boiling down an entire religious and cultural institution to one very particular thing. It's like saying all religions with holy books are the same. Interesting point: European Christians pilgrimaged to cathedrals, which held the bones of Saints or some other artifact in a tomb. There they prayed and sometimes reported miracles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Not comparable to voodoo or Obeah. You're boiling down an entire religious and cultural institution to one very particular thing. It's like saying all religions with holy books are the same. Interesting point: European Christians pilgrimaged to cathedrals, which held the bones of Saints or some other artifact in a tomb. There they prayed and sometimes reported miracles. it's comparable so far as I'm concerned. Ju Ju through and through. Amulets, relics bones and blood. Nonsensical. Making a saint differs from making a zombie how? Stupid old traditions conducted by by misguided naive brainwashed bumpkins and indoctrinated. On the other hand, I believe in commercial claims. 'specially Aflac! Don't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Creepy...nice architecture, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGbLDrwo4Mk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 interesting point my daughter the archeologist/historian related to me...the polytheism of early religions having numerous gods for different purposes is no different than today's monotheism, only the terminology is different...monotheism has merely reclassified the polytheism "gods" to saints/prophets/disciples...in the past Neptune was the god to be prayed to before sea travel, today St. Nicholas(santa) is the patron saint of sea travel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) it's comparable so far as I'm concerned. Ju Ju through and through. Amulets, relics bones and blood. Nonsensical. It's not any more nonsensical than believing a virgin gave birth to a God's baby, who then died to absolve of us our sins, so we turn wine and bread into his body and blood and eat it to unite with God. It's all nonsense to us today because it was viewed by Europeans as absurdity when it was practiced by their African slaves. After the Tacky Rebellion in Jamaica and others that followed in the British West Indies, Obeah/Voodoo/etc were outlawed because they saw it as a way for slaves to organize against their slaveholders. When the number of missionaries going to the Caribbean increased in the 1800s, the discourse around Obeah turned to one of Good vs Evil. Laws against the practices still remain on the books and are nothing more than a holdover from the days of racist oppression. Interestingly enough, those ideas still resonate in our current culture. We view Obeah/Voodoo/etc as unholy, evil, and violent, when at the time it was nothing more than a pastiche of West African and European religious beliefs and folk medicine. Edited October 23, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 interesting point my daughter the archeologist/historian related to me...the polytheism of early religions having numerous gods for different purposes is no different than today's monotheism, only the terminology is different...monotheism has merely reclassified the polytheism "gods" to saints/prophets/disciples...in the past Neptune was the god to be prayed to before sea travel, today St. Nicholas(santa) is the patron saint of sea travel... Oh, I forgot to mention about that. It's interesting how Africans and even Natives in North America were able to co-opt the European God into their belief systems. Those that practiced voodoo or Obeah (and there's some similar crossovers with Natives, but having more to do with spirits in nature) believed that there was a sort of hierarchy of Gods. There was a Great God above all (which is where they were able to co-opt the European/Christian belief about God) and lesser Gods or spirits. When it comes to voodoo and Obeah, they believed that those lesser spirits caused mischief in people's lives, including sickness. They believed that voodoo or Obeah practitioners could actually control these lesser spirits (but not the Greater God) and cause harm to others. Hence, the use of amulets and whatnot, which they believed could protect them from these things. Natives likewise believed in a hierarchy of spirits, which allowed them to co-opt the European religions, while retaining their own beliefs. In order to control these populations, Europeans needed to get these peoples to let go of their religious beliefs entirely, which is part of the reason why Obeah/Voodoo were banned and characterized as satanic or evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 interesting point my daughter the archeologist/historian related to me...the polytheism of early religions having numerous gods for different purposes is no different than today's monotheism, only the terminology is different...monotheism has merely reclassified the polytheism "gods" to saints/prophets/disciples...in the past Neptune was the god to be prayed to before sea travel, today St. Nicholas(santa) is the patron saint of sea travel... Well, in old school Greece and Italy,he is. St Christopher is the much more popular patron saint of travelers. Sea or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Oh, I forgot to mention about that. It's interesting how Africans and even Natives in North America were able to co-opt the European God into their belief systems. Those that practiced voodoo or Obeah (and there's some similar crossovers with Natives, but having more to do with spirits in nature) believed that there was a sort of hierarchy of Gods. There was a Great God above all (which is where they were able to co-opt the European/Christian belief about God) and lesser Gods or spirits. When it comes to voodoo and Obeah, they believed that those lesser spirits caused mischief in people's lives, including sickness. They believed that voodoo or Obeah practitioners could actually control these lesser spirits (but not the Greater God) and cause harm to others. Hence, the use of amulets and whatnot, which they believed could protect them from these things. Natives likewise believed in a hierarchy of spirits, which allowed them to co-opt the European religions, while retaining their own beliefs. In order to control these populations, Europeans needed to get these peoples to let go of their religious beliefs entirely, which is part of the reason why Obeah/Voodoo were banned and characterized as satanic or evil. If only a simple photo or talisman could stop a bullet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 If only prayer could help Jehova's Witnesses that refuse blood transfusions. All religious beliefs are absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraychik Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) If only prayer could help Jehova's Witnesses that refuse blood transfusions. All religious beliefs are absurd. Except when they cross from absurd to outright destructive and dangerous. That's when you start the Tourette's syndrome-esque"Islamophobia!" episodes, right? Edited October 23, 2012 by kraychik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Oh, I forgot to mention about that. It's interesting how Africans and even Natives in North America were able to co-opt the European God into their belief systems. Those that practiced voodoo or Obeah (and there's some similar crossovers with Natives, but having more to do with spirits in nature) believed that there was a sort of hierarchy of Gods. There was a Great God above all (which is where they were able to co-opt the European/Christian belief about God) and lesser Gods or spirits. When it comes to voodoo and Obeah, they believed that those lesser spirits caused mischief in people's lives, including sickness. They believed that voodoo or Obeah practitioners could actually control these lesser spirits (but not the Greater God) and cause harm to others. Hence, the use of amulets and whatnot, which they believed could protect them from these things. Natives likewise believed in a hierarchy of spirits, which allowed them to co-opt the European religions, while retaining their own beliefs. In order to control these populations, Europeans needed to get these peoples to let go of their religious beliefs entirely, which is part of the reason why Obeah/Voodoo were banned and characterized as satanic or evil. just as early european christian co-opted pagan beliefs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yeah. I don't really mean it in the same way though. I mean that Natives and Africans in the colonies saw no contradiction in accepting the Christian God while maintaining their religious beliefs at the same time, due to the hierarchical nature of their faiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yeah. I don't really mean it in the same way though. I mean that Natives and Africans in the colonies saw no contradiction in accepting the Christian God while maintaining their religious beliefs at the same time, due to the hierarchical nature of their faiths. couldn't you make the same case for romans adopting christianity? jupiter=jesus/god and all the lesser gods convert to saints and disciples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I don't know as much about Roman gods and pagan religions, but it sounds like it. Just to be clear though, the Africans and Natives, in some cases, accepted the Christian God as part of their religion. It wasn't a comparison, rather they actually integrated the Christian God into their religion. I'm not sure how it unfolded in Rome, but it would be like them accepting a Christian God as the highest God, then keeping all the Roman Gods as lesser gods, rather than replacing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 If only prayer could help Jehova's Witnesses that refuse blood transfusions. All religious beliefs are absurd. Me atheist....you Jane Goodall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 To be a saint you must perform miracles or something to that effect....the problem is that 'miracle' is only a temporary term for something until we figure out why a certain event occurred. When we finally have an explanation for something, it would no longer be a miracle...does that mean the person would no longer be a saint? Hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 christian patron saint of wine-St Vincent ...roman god of wine-Bacchus...greek god of wine Dionysos it appears to me to be a simple replacement...and people pray to these saints so how are they not gods?...is it possible in order to get superstitious pagans to accept christianity priests cheated on the "only one god" thing and compromised by allowing "saints"(gods)... the list of saints/gods is a long one... http://orthodoxwiki.org/Patron_saint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 christian patron saint of wine-St Vincent ...roman god of wine-Bacchus...greek god of wine Dionysos it appears to me to be a simple replacement...and people pray to these saints so how are they not gods?...is it possible in order to get superstitious pagans to accept christianity priests cheated on the "only one god" thing and compromised by allowing "saints"(gods)... the list of saints/gods is a long one... http://orthodoxwiki.org/Patron_saint I made a similar statement on this thread (bottom of page) - minus the St Vincent part. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1455 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFCaper Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 To be a saint you must perform miracles or something to that effect....the problem is that 'miracle' is only a temporary term for something until we figure out why a certain event occurred. When we finally have an explanation for something, it would no longer be a miracle...does that mean the person would no longer be a saint? Hmmm Do you actually have an proof of this ever happening? I heard an interesting interview on CBC radio with an atheist. She was given a medical case that she believed to be a legal case to study, then realised after the fact it that she was trying to disprove a miracle. She said to be considered a miracle, that all of the best medical science of the time had to be used, and the cure to appear to impossible. So back to.my question, have any "miracles" been proven false? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Do you actually have an proof of this ever happening? I heard an interesting interview on CBC radio with an atheist. She was given a medical case that she believed to be a legal case to study, then realised after the fact it that she was trying to disprove a miracle. She said to be considered a miracle, that all of the best medical science of the time had to be used, and the cure to appear to impossible. So back to.my question, have any "miracles" been proven false? have any miracles been proven to be real is the question, no they haven't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleipnir Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Do you actually have an proof of this ever happening? That would be a good topic for a philosophical term paper.... So back to.my question, have any "miracles" been proven false? Only until someone explains it. The problem with the concept of miracles, is that all things in the universe occurred for a reason - if a miracle don't required a reason, then miracles do not exist. They are rather, a mere fiction of our creative imagination. Edited October 24, 2012 by Sleipnir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Only until someone explains it. The problem with the concept of miracles, is that all things in the universe occurred for a reason - if a miracle don't required a reason, then miracles do not exist. They are rather, a mere fiction of our creative imagination. if miracles exist then the opposite must exist as well, "god" must deliberately choose to maim,torture and murder... there is no divine explanation offered as to why people spontaneously get cancer why should there be a divine explanation when a cancer spontaneously goes into remission... why is there no divine credit given when an earthquake kills tens of thousands but a solitary survivor is credited to divine benevolent intervention... surely if an all powerful being is credited for miracles that same being must be responsible for the situation in the first place as well... miracles are nothing more than luck/statistics, most of us will never win a lottery but a lucky few will.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yeah. I don't really mean it in the same way though. I mean that Natives and Africans in the colonies saw no contradiction in accepting the Christian God while maintaining their religious beliefs at the same time, due to the hierarchical nature of their faiths. If I didn't have a problem with that a hundred + years ago, I would think a bit of enlightenment should have discounted a lot of this crap by now. I could cite umpteen examples in dozens of sects aka religions, but for discussion sake should a sensible person today believe the following? "The World Turtle (also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle, the World-bearing Turtle, or the Divine Turtle) is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. The mytheme, which is similar to that of the World Elephant and World Serpent, occurs in Hindu, Chinese, and Native American mythology. The "World-Tortoise" mytheme was discussed comparatively by Edward Burnett Tylor (1878:341)." I think indigenous North American held/hold similar beliefs? As well as powers of sage, sweet grass etc. Isn't it time we got 'real' We no longer drive buffalo over a cliff for food. The gods are fantasy and the beliefs mythology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 there is no divine explanation offered as to why people spontaneously get cancer why should there be a divine explanation when a cancer spontaneously goes into remission... why is there no divine credit given when an earthquake kills tens of thousands but a solitary survivor is credited to divine benevolent intervention... surely if an all powerful being is credited for miracles that same being must be responsible for the situation in the first place as well... miracles are nothing more than luck/statistics, most of us will never win a lottery but a lucky few will.... There are divine explanations for that stuff. I'm not sure why you think there aren't. For instance, some Christians believe that we are born into sin and are serving out our punishment. So of course there is misery and suffering. It's God's prerogative to save us or not. All of the suffering that goes on in the world is by divine design for our ancestors transgressions in the Garden. God punishes humanity because he loves us. Imagine a parent that just let their child run around and do whatever the hell it wants with impunity. That child is not going to grow up to be very well adjusted. Well, when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, God cast them out and we are doomed to live out that punishment because God loves us like a Father. He shows Grace by saving us from the misery and he shows us that he loves us by punishing us with the misery. We should be grateful when things are good or they're bad. Frankly, I think it's a load of garbage, since it creates a nice fallacy where it's impossible to take an opposing position, but there you have it. Divine explanation. It's God's punishment for Original Sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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