Heroic Indigenous Fighters Combat the West, and 14 Year Old Girls

[DogOnPorch]

I should correct myself regarding "never hit" and modify it to never directly hit. It was not a target. There were militants in the area, and Israel fought back.

I agree. Eyewitnesses to this are shaky at best. Plus mortars, when not properly maintained, can be very dangerous to the operators. Frankly, though, that damage doesn't look like it came from a high velocity 120mm round which is what the Merkava packs. There'd be nothing left...HEAT round or regular. That looks more like an RPG hit...and if that's true...well...then we have a problem with the narrative. Israelis don't use them.

It wouldn't be the first time this sort of trick has been tried, either. There were claims that most of a family visiting a beach in Gaza was killed by Israeli 155mm shells which leave HUGE holes in the ground yet all the lawn chairs were still standing. Frantic Hamas men were busy knocking them over ON CAMERA when they realized their error.

What was more likely is that one of the unfortunate beach goers stepped on a land mine of some sort.

[jacee]

This is where pro-Hamas posters start refusing to answer. When the questions get a tad tricky and can't be explained away by the term 'Zionist'. My question is a valid one and it was greeted with derision and outright Blood Libel...AS IF the IDF would attack civilians evacuating Gaza City in cold blood. Yeah...there's a plan...

"As if ... "?

You believe what you want to believe.

The damage and casualties and international outrage say otherwise.

Denial is your right I suppose ... but don't expect me to take it 'on faith' as you do.

[DogOnPorch]

"As if ... "?

You believe what you want to believe.

The damage and casualties and international outrage say otherwise.

Denial is your right I suppose ... but don't expect me to take it 'on faith' as you do.

So you're going to go on record defending Hamas by claiming fear that the IDF would slaughter evacuating civilians during the ceasefire as being the reason they weren't moved to the safety of the former Jewish settlement to the south of the city? OK, fine. At least you take a stand. I think it preposterous that such a thing would have occurred.

[Guest American Woman]

... but don't expect me to take it 'on faith' as you do.

Oh, you take it "on faith;" faith in whatever the "other side" says, including Hamas.

Edited October 20, 2012 by American Woman

[jacee]

Oh, you take it "on faith;" faith in whatever the "other side" says, including Hamas.

It's the body count that causes international outrage.

I am but one.

[DogOnPorch]

It's the body count that causes international outrage.

I am but one.

Perhaps they should have evacuated their civilians.

[Guest American Woman]

Perhaps they should have evacuated their civilians.

Or not instigated a fight in the area....

[DogOnPorch]

Or not instigated a fight in the area....

Well, yeah...there's always that. But, since it did happen and ceasefires did occur for various reasons, one has to wonder WHY Hamas did not save their own people by getting them away from the fighting. The leadership were more than happy to sit in bunkers safe from Israeli attacks, mind you. Plus, the former Jewish settlement at the crossroads is well known to many Gaza City residents who would often walk/drive down there for the day in order to attack the Jewish settlers there. They could have guided the crowds.

[kraychik]

Yes it was.

Israel had claimed Hamas militants were hiding inside the school, but the UN had denied this.

Is it your contention that if a school is being used for terrorist purposes (storage for weapons, operational planning, or launching point for attacks) that it should not be targeted for destruction? If you have a son in military service being shot at from a school, would you advise him to refrain from shooting back and allow himself to be hurt or killed?

More wisdom from MLW's prolific communist, I suppose?

[kraychik]

There's no reason to think so.

Thanks to growing civlized natured of the public--who used to be a lot more servile to power--there are fewer war dead. This is directly and specifically because the public won't tolerate mass killings.

I mean, of what fast wars with low casualty rates are you speaking? Vietnam?

DEspite popular opinion, the American public was supportive of that war for the frist two years...three, really...and the casualty rate was monstrous.

Ridiculous narrative. More Chomsky-esque nonsense about "servility" to "power". It's all neo-Marxist nonsense. Beyond that, you're just making up the history as you go along about public opinion during these times.

[kraychik]

Pretty much true. And the reality is it is in fact counterproductive, even from the standpoint of trying to save lives. If these wars were prosecuted with the gloves off, with full intent to achieve the objectives by any means necessary, they would be over in weeks/months instead of years/decades. And while those weeks/months would have a higher death rate, the total casualties would be much lower.

Restricted warfare as the West currently engages in just makes it so war is just tolerable enough that people will keep doing it forever. On the other hand, unleash the full hell of war and people will quickly realize how terrible it is and stop fighting.

You and I are on the same page. If you haven't read this article before, try it out. Edward Luttwak, "Give War A Chance":

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/55210/edward-n-luttwak/give-war-a-chance

[kraychik]

Correct.

Sherman's March to the Sea, Dresden and Hiroshima/Nagasaki were not pre-announced. And notwithstanding this policy Japan and Germany remain Western allies.

This leftist approach to the prosecution of war is what entrenches the world's sole superpower in a third-world trash bin like Afghanistan for over a decade. The war could've been over in weeks, but instead here we are in 2012, still talking about it. Why? Because America and its allies are too hesitant to actually apply military power with sufficient force to secure complete and total victory - to appease the left who cry crocodile tears over "civilians" but shout "war criminal" accusations to returning veterans.

[DogOnPorch]

More wisdom from MLW's prolific communist, I suppose?

If you're the type that thinks the IDF will kill woman and children fleeing war during a cease fire, you'll believe zee Moon is made of Green Cheese.

[kraychik]

Well, to you it is. Fact remains that during cease-fires, Hamas did not evacuate civilians like any normal government would have.

Man of these "civilians" don't want to evacuate. They willingly support the terrorist infrastructure in many ways. "Civilian" deaths are a big part of the broader propaganda war waged against Israel from its enemies.

[kraychik]

If you're the type that thinks the IDF will kill woman and children fleeing war during a cease fire, you'll believe zee Moon is made of Green Cheese.

That's certainly not what I said. Remember, earlier in this thread I stated exactly the opposite, that the IDF goes to great lengths towards reducing "collateral damage", implementing methods that compromise its ability to secure military objectives by giving terrorists advance notice of impending operations. The IDF does things no other army does towards these ends, and I think it's a bad idea because it prolongs conflicts, give the enemy an advantage, and leads to more Israeli casualties.

[DogOnPorch]

Man of these "civilians" don't want to evacuate. They willingly support the terrorist infrastructure in many ways. "Civilian" deaths are a big part of the broader propaganda war waged against Israel from its enemies.

That is indeed true for some in Gaza. Many who wished to leave were also 'discouraged' by Hamas and their buddies.

[DogOnPorch]

That's certainly not what I said. Remember, earlier in this thread I stated exactly the opposite, that the IDF goes to great lengths towards reducing "collateral damage", implementing methods that compromise its ability to secure military objectives by giving terrorists advance notice of impending operations. The IDF does things no other army does towards these ends, and I think it's a bad idea because it prolongs conflicts, give the enemy an advantage, and leads to more Israeli casualties.

My mistake...I should have used the more universal "one" not "you" to avoid confusion. I'm, of course, referring to jacee's post a few back.

Edited October 22, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[kraychik]

That is indeed true for some in Gaza. Many who wished to leave were also 'discouraged' by Hamas and their buddies.

It's a combination of intimidation and willing sacrifice, sometimes it's column A and sometimes it's column B. There is a cultural theme rampant among the "Palestinians" that glorifies martyrdom, and the entire population is indoctrinated with this message constantly, starting in infancy. Some know better and are simply intimidated into participation in terrorism (human shields, shuttling weapons, acting as spotters, etc), but some are gung-ho and do it passionately. It's really twisted.

[kraychik]

My mistake...I should have used the more universal "one" not "you" to avoid confusion.

Ah, I now see what you intended to say. Agreed.

[bleeding heart]

Ridiculous narrative. More Chomsky-esque nonsense about "servility" to "power". It's all neo-Marxist nonsense. Beyond that, you're just making up the history as you go along about public opinion during these times.

Your continually one-note responses are what's broadly known as a "tell."

[bud]

Well, yeah...there's always that. But, since it did happen and ceasefires did occur for various reasons, one has to wonder WHY Hamas did not save their own people by getting them away from the fighting.

the stupid gazans should have gone into schools that were run by UN, where no hamas militants were present to take refuge. that way they would have been safe from the most moral army in the world.

[bud]

Or not instigated a fight in the area....

why so many lies?

[Guest American Woman]

why so many lies?

I didn't say that they did fire rockets, did I?

[jbg]

More illustrations of Arab humanity (link, excerpts below):

An Atrocity in Syria, With No Victim Too Small By ANNE BARNARD and HANIA MOURTADA

BEIRUT, Lebanon — After dragging 46 bodies from the streets near his hometown on the Syrian coast, Omar lost count. For four days, he said, he could not eat, remembering the burned body of a baby just a few months old; a fetus ripped from a woman’s belly; a friend lying dead, his dog still standing guard.

*********************************

Footage routinely shows pro-government fighters beating, killing and mutilating Sunni rebel detainees, forcing them to refer to President Bashar al-Assad as God. One rebel commander recently filmed himself cutting out an organ of a dead pro-government fighter, biting it and promising the same fate to Alawites, members of Mr. Assad’s Shiite Muslim sect.

That lurid violence has fueled pessimism about international efforts to end the fighting. As the United States and Russia work to organize peace talks next month between Mr. Assad and his opponents, the ever more extreme carnage makes reconciliation seem more remote.

Nadim Houry, the director of Human Rights Watch in Beirut, said he sensed “a complete disconnect between diplomacy and events on the ground.”

“The conflict is getting more visceral,” he said. Without concrete confidence-building measures, he said, and with more people “seeing it as an existential struggle, it’s hard to imagine what the negotiations would look like.”

The recent executions, reconstructed by speaking with residents and human rights monitors, unfolded over three days in two Sunni enclaves in the largely Alawite and Christian province, first in the village of Bayda and then in the Ras al-Nabeh district of the nearby city of Baniyas.

Government troops and supporting militias went house to house, killing entire families and smashing men’s heads with concrete blocks.

Antigovernment activists provided lists of 322 victims they said had been identified. Videos showed at least a dozen dead children. Hundreds more people are reported missing.

“How can we reach a point of national forgiveness?” said Ahmad Abu al-Khair, a well-known blogger from Bayda. He said that the attacks had begun there, and that 800 of about 6,000 residents were missing.

Multiple video images that residents said they had recorded in Bayda and Ras al-Nabeh — of small children lying where they died, some embracing one another or their parents — were so searing that even some government supporters rejected Syrian television’s official version of events, that the army had “crushed a number of terrorists.”

Hudson Jones, can you chalk this up to Israel?

[BubberMiley]

I don't see how these people are "heroic", as suggested in the title to this thread. They seem sick and evil to me.