Guest American Woman Posted October 21, 2012 Report Posted October 21, 2012 Israel systematically blocked food supplies from the Gaza Strip, keeping Palestinians, half of them children, on the brink of starvation. Now don't tell me Israel needs to be protected no matter what, when these are the kinds of despicable things that they are doing to Palestinians. Not true. The policy that your source is referring to was a guideline to ensure that limiting the entry of goods to the Gaza Strip wouldn't result in a food shortage. Furthermore, the policy was never put into effect. COGAT, appealing a District Court ruling to release the document, stated that it was merely a rough draft, that it was never actually implemented, and that it did not guide Israeli policy in practice. In its objection to the document's publication, COGAT argued that there was no reason to disclose what was essentially internal staff work, a mere proposal that was never actually put into effect. "The quantification wasn't done in order to arrive at a minimum threshold or restrict the quantities, but the opposite to ensure that there was no shortage," a COGAT official maintained Tuesday. To obey the cabinet's order to avoid a "humanitarian crisis," COGAT officers devised what they called "sensors" to warn them if there was a risk of impending malnutrition or an impending shortage of the permitted goods. Thus in addition to the "red lines," they produced two other documents: a model for estimating inventories of essential staples in Gaza, and a procedure for allowing the entry of goods into the Strip. If you look at the document, the document clearly states (emphasis mine): http://www.haaretz.c...f/red-lines.pdf The goal of the analysis – to identify the point of intervention for prevention of malnutrition in the Gaza Strip. The security situation in the Gaza Strip and, on the other hand, the interest in preventing a humanitarian crisis have created a need for a solution to the issue of bringing essential goods into the Gaza Strip. The issue became more pressing following the Security Cabinet decision of September 19, 2007, according to which Israel would limit the entry of goods into the Gaza Strip. Yet look at what the article you linked to says: An Israeli human rights organization, Gisha, sued in Israeli courts to force the release of a planning document for ‘putting the Palestinians on a diet’ without risking the bad press of mass starvation ... ...by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition... "...'putting the Palestinians on a diet’ without risking the bad press of mass starvation??" "Plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza permanently on the brink of malnutrition??" Obviously there was no such "plot" and obviously the intent of the document was quite the opposite. As a side note, "the ban on the entry of food and most other goods has been lifted." It seems as if so much of the criticism of Israel is blatantly false/skewed to the point of totally false presentation. Quote
Guest Peeves Posted October 21, 2012 Report Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) This doesn't really have to do with the specific topic at hand, but it does have to do with Gaza and I don't think it quite deserves its own thread. Israel systematically blocked food supplies from the Gaza Strip, keeping Palestinians, half of them children, on the brink of starvation. Now don't tell me Israel needs to be protected no matter what, when these are the kinds of despicable things that they are doing to Palestinians. According to an article I read about Arafat's death,he had been given billions to aid his Arab brothers but put it into private bank accounts. He was determined it said, to keep them poor and hungry so they'd be useful to his cause. Had they been more satisfied they'd be more content and less useful as pawns. I think some of that mentality continues. Why would Hamas want the Arabs to be more reasonable? Obviously it's to Hama's favor to keep the citizenry riled up over Israel's treatment and existence. Were I an Arab in the Gaza I'd probably believe the agitprop too, doesn't mean intelligent people should. Edited October 21, 2012 by Peeves Quote
cybercoma Posted October 21, 2012 Report Posted October 21, 2012 Not true. The policy that your source is referring to was a guideline to ensure that limiting the entry of goods to the Gaza Strip wouldn't result in a food shortage. Furthermore, the policy was never put into effect. COGAT, appealing a District Court ruling to release the document, stated that it was merely a rough draft, that it was never actually implemented, and that it did not guide Israeli policy in practice. In its objection to the document's publication, COGAT argued that there was no reason to disclose what was essentially internal staff work, a mere proposal that was never actually put into effect. "The quantification wasn't done in order to arrive at a minimum threshold or restrict the quantities, but the opposite to ensure that there was no shortage," a COGAT official maintained Tuesday. To obey the cabinet's order to avoid a "humanitarian crisis," COGAT officers devised what they called "sensors" to warn them if there was a risk of impending malnutrition or an impending shortage of the permitted goods. Thus in addition to the "red lines," they produced two other documents: a model for estimating inventories of essential staples in Gaza, and a procedure for allowing the entry of goods into the Strip. If you look at the document, the document clearly states (emphasis mine): http://www.haaretz.c...f/red-lines.pdf The goal of the analysis – to identify the point of intervention for prevention of malnutrition in the Gaza Strip. The security situation in the Gaza Strip and, on the other hand, the interest in preventing a humanitarian crisis have created a need for a solution to the issue of bringing essential goods into the Gaza Strip. The issue became more pressing following the Security Cabinet decision of September 19, 2007, according to which Israel would limit the entry of goods into the Gaza Strip. Yet look at what the article you linked to says: An Israeli human rights organization, Gisha, sued in Israeli courts to force the release of a planning document for ‘putting the Palestinians on a diet’ without risking the bad press of mass starvation ... ...by planning on limiting the calories in that way, the Israeli military was actually plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza (half of them children) permanently on the brink of malnutrition... "...'putting the Palestinians on a diet’ without risking the bad press of mass starvation??" "Plotting to keep Palestinians in Gaza permanently on the brink of malnutrition??" Obviously there was no such "plot" and obviously the intent of the document was quite the opposite. As a side note, "the ban on the entry of food and most other goods has been lifted." It seems as if so much of the criticism of Israel is blatantly false/skewed to the point of totally false presentation. Yes, you can spin it so that keeping them on the brink of starvation by blocking food supplies and rationing out the bare minimum is "keeping them from starvation." Meanwhile, it's inhumane and yet another example of Israel's human rights abuses. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted October 21, 2012 Report Posted October 21, 2012 Yes, you can spin it so that keeping them on the brink of starvation by blocking food supplies and rationing out the bare minimum is "keeping them from starvation." Meanwhile, it's inhumane and yet another example of Israel's human rights abuses. Excuse me, but you're the one who not only put a "spin" on it, but a completely false presentation. Makes one wonder why criticism of Israel has to be falsely presented - can't do it on its own merits? Seems not. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 21, 2012 Author Report Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) Excuse me, but you're the one who not only put a "spin" on it, but a completely false presentation. Makes one wonder why criticism of Israel has to be falsely presented - can't do it on its own merits? Seems not. Edited October 21, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Peeves Posted October 21, 2012 Report Posted October 21, 2012 Zionist water probably unacceptable. Oh by the way, construction of the shopping center was done with cement bought from Israel. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 22, 2012 Author Report Posted October 22, 2012 Zionist water probably unacceptable. Oh by the way, construction of the shopping center was done with cement bought from Israel. The hot heads in Gaza hate fun. They burn down summer camps and forbid all sorts of stupid things like girls driving motorbikes. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
jbg Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 Having said that, I know you don't get rude, jbg - I think you make a conscious effort not to. I, on the other hand, will give back the attitude that I get - but not as strongly if I feel it's crossing the line. Anyway, for what it's worth, since some have been discussing this, that's my take on it. Thanks.And one time I did step over the line regarding Islam I did apologize to him, through unrequited apologies on public posts and PM's. He is truly ungracious. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 According to an article I read about Arafat's death,he had been given billions to aid his Arab brothers but put it into private bank accounts. He was determined it said, to keep them poor and hungry so they'd be useful to his cause. Had they been more satisfied they'd be more content and less useful as pawns. I think it was more in the tradition of Arab rule, similar to Ali Baba. The rulers live in splendor and the people in grinding poverty. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 I think it's important to show the buds of this planet their hypocrisy. The Viet-Nam War is just a prime example how the rules shift depending upon the presence of Jews. UN 413 was one of those rubber-stamp resolutions that acknowledged that the Communist victory was complete and nobody was going to try and make them give back their spoils of war...a war the Communists started. Rewarding their aggression. This has nothing to to do with the "presense of jews". The world reacts to the events that are the hardest to ignore, and the ones that dominate the news cycle. If there was millions in viet-nam that were being kept in a permanent state of statelessness and military occupaion, and they were resisting enough to get people to notice then, and those conditions dragged on for many decades then it would be different. People focus on Israel because thats a unique situation and theres always JUST enough going on to keep it in the news. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted October 22, 2012 Author Report Posted October 22, 2012 This has nothing to to do with the "presense of jews". The world reacts to the events that are the hardest to ignore, and the ones that dominate the news cycle. If there was millions in viet-nam that were being kept in a permanent state of statelessness and military occupaion, and they were resisting enough to get people to notice then, and those conditions dragged on for many decades then it would be different. People focus on Israel because thats a unique situation and theres always JUST enough going on to keep it in the news. You obviously missed the Viet-Nam War. There were a million refugees that were forced to hit the waves in boats while 10s of thousands were murdered and another million sent to re-education camps. South Viet-Nam isn't gone by choice. When do these folks get their country back? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Bonam Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) This has nothing to to do with the "presense of jews". The world reacts to the events that are the hardest to ignore, and the ones that dominate the news cycle. If there was millions in viet-nam that were being kept in a permanent state of statelessness and military occupaion, and they were resisting enough to get people to notice then, and those conditions dragged on for many decades then it would be different. People focus on Israel because thats a unique situation and theres always JUST enough going on to keep it in the news. One has to ask WHY are people kept in a "permanent state" of statelessness. Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan still living in refugee camps 45 years later? Why haven't their fellow Arab governments made it possible for them to integrate into their societies? Why have the unprecedented levels of aid not been used by Palestinian governments (PA and Hamas) to improve lives for their people? Why, in one of the most benign "occupations" anywhere in the world, are the Palestinians "resisting" instead of negotiating? Why did the Palestinians on many occasions reject the opportunity to have their own state? Why do "flotillas" travel to try to "break the siege" of Gaza where the occasional one or handful of people are killed while tens of thousands are slaughtered in Syria without any flotillas? Why is Israel always in the news even as reporting of events elsewhere which are far far more dire is much more sparse? The reality is hatred of Jews is still very much a powerful force in the world. Certainly not everyone that criticizes Israel is an anti-semite, nor do they deserve to be accused of that for being critical of Israel. But why is Israel held to such a different standard, why is Arab propaganda against Israel parroted constantly, why is it kept constantly in the news, why are there more UN resolutions against Israel than against any other state, including those that have killed millions of people? Hatred and discrimination are the answer. The people that don't see it are like those in the US or Canada who live in nice areas and think that racism doesn't exist. Maybe it doesn't exist for them, in their rich neighborhoods, but it is very much still alive. Edited October 22, 2012 by Bonam Quote
dre Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) One has to ask WHY are people kept in a "permanent state" of statelessness. Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan still living in refugee camps 45 years later? Why haven't their fellow Arab governments made it possible for them to integrate into their societies? Why have the unprecedented levels of aid not been used by Palestinian governments (PA and Hamas) to improve lives for their people? Why, in one of the most benign "occupations" anywhere in the world, are the Palestinians "resisting" instead of negotiating? Why did the Palestinians on many occasions reject the opportunity to have their own state? Why do "flotillas" travel to try to "break the siege" of Gaza where the occasional one or handful of people are killed while tens of thousands are slaughtered in Syria without any flotillas? Why is Israel always in the news even as reporting of events elsewhere which are far far more dire is much more sparse? The reality is hatred of Jews is still very much a powerful force in the world. Certainly not everyone that criticizes Israel is an anti-semite, nor do they deserve to be accused of that for being critical of Israel. But why is Israel held to such a different standard, why is Arab propaganda against Israel parroted constantly, why is it kept constantly in the news, why are there more UN resolutions against Israel than against any other state, including those that have killed millions of people? Hatred and discrimination are the answer. The people that don't see it are like those in the US or Canada who live in nice areas and think that racism doesn't exist. Maybe it doesn't exist for them, in their rich neighborhoods, but it is very much still alive. One has to ask WHY are people kept in a "permanent state" of statelessness. The answer to that is pretty simple. Israels needs the natural resources in the occupied territories but does not need the population there, and it cant absorb millions more arabs into its population if it wants to stay a jewish state. Why are the Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan still living in refugee camps 45 years later? Why haven't their fellow Arab governments made it possible for them to integrate into their societies? Well ANY country can only absorb a certain ammount of refugees and in some cases palestinians dont WANT to be citizens of some other country. Why have the unprecedented levels of aid not been used by Palestinian governments (PA and Hamas) to improve lives for their people? It has. Theres absolutely no question that international aid has helped people in the occupied territories, and Israel as well for that matter. Why, in one of the most benign "occupations" anywhere in the world, are the Palestinians "resisting" instead of negotiating? Because it simply does not work. When the palestinian authorities have been able to reduce violence and attacks on Isreal it has made no difference at all to the rate at which Israel is taking over the west bank. When you talk about arabs in the occupied territories "negotiating" with Isreal you assume they even have the power or the venue to do so but they dont. Israel can do whatever it feels like, it is in complete tactical and strategic control. It would not give up control of the occupied territories whether the ihabitants were nice folks or not because its primary interest there is the natural resources. Why do "flotillas" travel to try to "break the siege" of Gaza where the occasional one or handful of people are killed while tens of thousands are slaughtered in Syria without any flotillas? The answer is obvious and self evident. Syria is a completely different situation and a brand new situation. If the situation in syria continues for 50 years then you can be sure that a whole host of NGO's will be taking up that cause. And Syria is a full fledged civil war between organized and mostly sectarian factions that have been preparing for this for decades. Westerners dont quite know what to make of it yet, and western governments arent really sure who the bad guys are. But in reality so far its being treated like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict... for the most part we sit back and watch. Why is Israel always in the news even as reporting of events elsewhere which are far far more dire is much more sparse? Israel is always in the news because its NEWS WORTHY. There is a constant flow of reportable events resulting from the occupation and its a unique situation. There is a lot of people on both sides around the world that are interested and it recieves wide coverage as a result. But why is Israel held to such a different standard Its not. why are there more UN resolutions against Israel than against any other state, including those that have killed millions of people? First of all the whole mess over there is a UN mandate, as opposed to an internal struggle in some 3rd world nation. But mostly its simply because its gone on for so long. why is Arab propaganda against Israel parroted constantly I hear propoganda from both sides constantly, and if anything I would say that palestians have a relatively small soapbox. The people that don't see it are like those in the US or Canada who live in nice areas and think that racism doesn't exist. Maybe it doesn't exist for them, in their rich neighborhoods, but it is very much still alive. I see a lot more racism towards muslims than I do jews, and I see a whole lot both from jews and arabs towards each other. Edited October 22, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jacee Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 One can be critical of the oppressive or aggressive actions of a state without racist motivation. Quote
Guest Peeves Posted October 22, 2012 Report Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) Yada-Yada truncated for brevity in response. I see a lot more racism towards muslims than I do jews, and I see a whole lot both from jews and arabs towards each other. The entire Islamic middle east is in turmoil with secular aims..Syria-Iran Shiite--Yemen-Afghanistan playing off against the majority Sunni. Now Hamas has switched from Iran to support the uprising in Syria. Iran was supporting Hamas and is supporting Syrian Assad. Lebanon is in turmoil over Syria and Hezbollah. The Saudis and other Sunni nations (lighter green) are worried over a Shiite country- Iran getting a nuke. Turkey is threatening Syria. Russia is apparently arming Syria -Assad. Not to mention the historic centuries old battle of Muslim Sunni ans Shiite that constantly continues. The Muslim brotherhood and al Queda are filtering into the picture..al Qaeda in Yemen, the Brotherhood in Egypt etc. Gaza citizens are unhappy with Hamas. Lebanon Christians and others unhappy with Hezbollah and Syria. ll in all I think the Arab spring is not influenced by the religion of peace!--- but those damn Jews!~ Edited October 22, 2012 by Peeves Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Posted October 25, 2012 Hamas shoots Katyushas into Israel...again. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/25/israel-hits-back-after-hamas-launches-cross-border-rocket-attacks/ Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bud Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 Hamas has refused to renounce violence or recognise Israel’s right to exist israel has refused to renounce violence or recognize palestinians' right to a state. they're both shitty. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Guest American Woman Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 Hamas has refused to renounce violence or recognise Israel’s right to exist It's not just Hamas, but that's always how you present it. Quote
bud Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 It's not just Hamas, but that's always how you present it. the PLO has recognized israel. this happened back in 1988 and re-confirmed at oslo. so yeah, the israeli government has refused to accept a palestinian state as they see all of the land as the 'eternal land of the jewish people'. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Guest Peeves Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 the PLO has recognized israel. this happened back in 1988 and re-confirmed at oslo. so yeah, the israeli government has refused to accept a palestinian state as they see all of the land as the 'eternal land of the jewish people'. Oh c'mon, the world's biggest fool would not buy your claim of Israels recognition, every act of terror disputes the fiction you cite. It was a quid pro quo that never was formalized. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Posted October 25, 2012 Oh c'mon, the world's biggest fool would not buy your claim of Israels recognition, every act of terror disputes the fiction you cite. It was a quid pro quo that never was formalized. This seems to be related to this fellow pledging 400 million simoleons to Hamas. Probably needed some results. I'm sure bud has a different angle. NBC link. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bud Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 Oh c'mon, the world's biggest fool would not buy your claim of Israels recognition, every act of terror disputes the fiction you cite. It was a quid pro quo that never was formalized. you're in denial and you want others to be in denial with you. it's over buddy. the facts cannot be hidden. despite your charade, majority of the people are interested in facts and not ramblings of an extremist zionist such as yourself. majority of palestinians are willing to live next to a state of israel. they've accepted this for a long time. a border, based on the 1967 border is what the rest of the world also agrees with. it's time to side-step israel, which has never been interested in a palestinian state and has in fact, vowed to never allow one to be formed. in a few years, you, kraychik and other hasbara bots are going to be just like the racists who still long for apartheid south africa. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Mr.Canada Posted October 25, 2012 Report Posted October 25, 2012 it's obvious that Israel is ripping Jewish families from "Arab" territory. Who is supporting aparthied again? Are you saying that Arabs in Gaza want to live with Jews and view them as equals? Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
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