Free Gaza Movement

[DogOnPorch]

Gingrich said it beautifully, "The 'Palestinians' are an invented people". He was absolutely right.

Not really. The cause arose at the same time as most other Arab nationalist movements. Centered around the large ego of its founder and his desire to viewed as the general leader of the Pan-Arab movement over a Hashemite or a Saud (et al). It was, after all, al-Husseini who restored the Temple Mount to what we see today with the gold dome and elaborate art.

[Guest Peeves]

The problem is that people conflate Judaism with the state of Israel. You can't criticize Israeli politics without someone calling you an anti-semite.

Nonsense, just another popular canard fostered on us by anti-Semites. Jews criticize Israel all the time. So do Israelis. So do Israeli supporters. The ones 'called' antisemites for criticizing Israel are those that have criticized Jews and think directing their venom, vitriol and nasty remarks now at Israel cloaks them It doesn't.

Those that Criticize ONLY Israel when the entire middle east is erupting in violence, while ignoring the sectarian Muslims are at each others throats, are readilly spotted as anti-Semites.

When Christians are being murdered along with Arabs and Gaza is tossing rockets at civilian petting zoos, but that gets ignored while Israel is targeted by...readily spotted as anti-Semites. Those many anti-Semites that ignore the carnage of the Arab states and dictators. but look for any

means to call for boycott, or demean Israel, they're easily spotted.

Don't kid yourself you're B/S about not being able to criticize Israel is a front, a ruse, a crock. Just criticize the carnage and terror and upheaval elsewhere and from Gaza, and I'll willingly accept reasonable criticism of Israel as legitimately coming from an impartial source..

[jbg]

The problem is that people conflate Judaism with the state of Israel. You can't criticize Israeli politics without someone calling you an anti-semite.

Israel is one of the few countries where foreign policy is inextricably tied in with survival. And when Israel has more than 1/3 of surviving world Jewry in residence, the question is uncomfortably close.

[Guest American Woman]

[...] Israel has more than 1/3 of surviving world Jewry in residence[...]

I had no idea. According to this site - http://www.jewishvir...ism/jewpop.html - over 80% of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel or the U.S.

[DogOnPorch]

Don't kid yourself you're B/S about not being able to criticize Israel is a front, a ruse, a crock. Just criticize the carnage and terror and upheaval elsewhere and from Gaza, and I'll willingly accept reasonable criticism of Israel as legitimately coming from an impartial source..

One really needs only to hold-up the Arab-Israeli Wars of the 20th century to any other conflict of that time to see how odd a situation we have with the Palestinian Arabs. I've brought up South Viet-Nam a few times now as an example of a similar event* that saw no such fuss or muss as we see over the Middle East conflict. The huge number of fleeing refugees had to be absorbed by various countries as opposed to keeping them in limbo come the day that the "illegal" takeover of their nation be righted.

* taking place, of course, in 1975...a full 8 years after the 6 Day War and various UN Resolutions.

Edited October 10, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bleeding heart]

Nonsense, just another popular canard fostered on us by anti-Semite

s

Tautology is tautological.

A very convenient argument you've pulled out of thin air with no edifice to back it up.

. Jews criticize Israel all the time. So do Israelis. So do Israeli supporters.

I've heard critical Israeli Jews complain about the tenor of the North American "debates"...in that criticizing Israeli behaviour is easy and normal in Israel, but is prone to hysteria over here.

The ones 'called' antisemites for criticizing Israel are those that have criticized Jews and think directing their venom, vitriol and nasty remarks now at Israel cloaks them It doesn't.

Again, incredibly convenient. If and when someone is called an anti-semite...your argument is that it's accurate. Automatically.

It's not even a "where's there's smoke there's fire" rebuttal; it's "where there's an allegation there's fire."

Those that Criticize ONLY Israel when the entire middle east is erupting in violence, while ignoring the sectarian Muslims are at each others throats, are readilly spotted as anti-Semites.

This at least approaches a more rational stance (thought it's distinctly different from your claim above...have you noticed?)

But if it's true--if this is the standard to determine bigotry--than anyone who criticizes (to stay with your example) regimes hostile to Israel...but gives Israel a pass--is bigoted against Arabs.

I disagree with this, as I don't think a fixity or focus (even an unfair focus) incontrovertibly determines hatred and bigotry.

But it is your position.

In fact, if you don't allow it to generalize broadly--if you think this "focus=bigotry" only applies to Israel--then you are bigoted against Arabs--in your formulation!

Edited October 11, 2012 by bleeding heart

[jbg]

I had no idea. According to this site - http://www.jewishvir...ism/jewpop.html - over 80% of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel or the U.S.

Continental Europe managed to kill or expel most of their Jews. And for a variety of reasons many Jews no longer feel welcome in the U.K., though there is somewhat of a Jewish community in Britain. Sydney and Melbourne, Australia have a decent-sized Jewish community, and Canada has a few synagogues here and there. France actually has the third-largest Jewish community but it is gravely endangered.

That really leaves the U.S., Canada and Israel and the Jews' safe havens.

Edited October 11, 2012 by jbg

[jbg]

One really needs only to hold-up the Arab-Israeli Wars of the 20th century to any other conflict of that time to see how odd a situation we have with the Palestinian Arabs. I've brought up South Viet-Nam a few times now as an example of a similar event* that saw no such fuss or muss as we see over the Middle East conflict. The huge number of fleeing refugees had to be absorbed by various countries as opposed to keeping them in limbo come the day that the "illegal" takeover of their nation be righted.

The difference between Vietnam and Israel is the disparity in motivation of the defenders. Israelis are among the most motivated defenders on earth; not so much the South Vietnamese.

[DogOnPorch]

The difference between Vietnam and Israel is the disparity in motivation of the defenders. Israelis are among the most motivated defenders on earth; not so much the South Vietnamese.

Much of ARVN was run by corruption. Too many US dollars and not enough actual oversight into training, etc. Similar to Afghanistan's ANA. However there were some very effective units: ARVN Rangers and Montagnards for example...both top notch soldiers. It was sad during those days circa 1972, watching those guys trying to hold off the entire NVA while other units did squat. It was one of those situations where the US needed to reassess priorities to save a country...didn't happen. Gonna happen again, if we're not careful...Iraq...Afghanistan.

[Guest Peeves]

Continental Europe managed to kill or expel most of their Jews. And for a variety of reasons many Jews no longer feel welcome in the U.K., though there is somewhat of a Jewish community in Britain. Sydney and Melbourne, Australia have a decent-sized Jewish community, and Canada has a few synagogues here and there. France actually has the third-largest Jewish community but it is gravely endangered.

That really leaves the U.S., Canada and Israel and the Jews' safe havens.

Not to mention the nearly a million that were for all intent and purpose, driven out of Islamic countries on the founding of Israel and the aftermath.

[GostHacked]

Not to mention the nearly a million that were for all intent and purpose, driven out of Islamic countries on the founding of Israel and the aftermath.

People living there for many years under their own rule now have to all of a sudden live under someone eles's rule because of the creation of Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

People living there for many years under their own rule now have to all of a sudden live under someone eles's rule because of the creation of Israel.

That's a sweet way to put ethnic cleansing.

[GostHacked]

That's a sweet way to put ethnic cleansing.

Which is also a nice way of saying genocide.

[DogOnPorch]

Which is also a nice way of saying genocide.

I'm sure many Jews were killed during the pogroms that followed the creation of Israel. But, large numbers did make their way to Israel and became Israeli citizens. Close to a million which is comparable to the numbers of displaced Arabs.

[Rue]

s

Tautology is tautological.

A very convenient argument you've pulled out of thin air with no edifice to back it up.

I've heard critical Israeli Jews complain about the tenor of the North American "debates"...in that criticizing Israeli behaviour is easy and normal in Israel, but is prone to hysteria over here.

You criticize Peeves for an alleged convenient arguement he pulls out of thin air, then you engage in the very same thing you claim he is engaged in.

That's what I like about your responses.. You are always consistent in contradicting yourself.

[Rue]

People living there for many years under their own rule now have to all of a sudden live under someone eles's rule because of the creation of Israel.

In which world. Prior to the creation of the state of Israel in 1949 Palestinians had no government where they ruled themselves. How many times do you want to repeat this-it doesn't make it a fact just evidence of your attempts to revise history.

[GostHacked]

In which world. Prior to the creation of the state of Israel in 1949 Palestinians had no government where they ruled themselves. How many times do you want to repeat this-it doesn't make it a fact just evidence of your attempts to revise history.

Prior to the creation of Israel, Israel did not have a government there either.

The area was known as the Palestinian Mandate, and was governed (or not governed) by the British before the creation of Israel and some of the surrounding areas.

I am not the one revising history. Although I might have a different interpretation of that specific history.

[bleeding heart]

[

You criticize Peeves for an alleged convenient arguement he pulls out of thin air, then you engage in the very same thing you claim he is engaged in.

No...Peeves' remarks were based on the lovely idea that if anyone is accused--by anyone--of anti-semitism, then they are in fact anti-semites.

Meaning if I accuse Peeves of it, it is therefore accurate.

Of course I disagree with this craziness--so do you, as you've sanely pointed out more than once.

That's what I like about your responses.. You are always consistent in contradicting yourself.

Glad you enjoy my posting style. I aim always to please!

[Rue]

I'm sure many Jews were killed during the pogroms that followed the creation of Israel. But, large numbers did make their way to Israel and became Israeli citizens. Close to a million which is comparable to the numbers of displaced Arabs.

More interesting revisionism.

How about you do some research and find out how many non Jewish people living in what is today pre-1967 Israel were "displaced" compared to the number of Jews removed from Arab countries and forced to flee to Israel.

Then when you have done that then figure out how many holocaust refugees came to Israel and how many Jews were already there contonuously since ancient days.

Instead of flipping off as if you know the history research it.

General consensus is that from the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left Muslim countries. That does not include displaced Jews from Europe or who fled other countries. Youy inter-change the two as if they are the same number and you ignore the property loss not just the displacement of Jews.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12287

http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/jewish-refugees-lost-50-percent-more.html

what happened to the Jews from Europe after the holocaust:

http://holocaust-history.org/short-essays/what-happened.shtml

Generally speaking its estimated after 1948, 140,000 Jewish refugees from the holocaust came to Israel and about 400,000 to the US.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139

What we Jews know and you don't clearly, is that after World War Two, no countries would take in jewish refugees except the U.S. Some got into Canada, France and Britain because they had relatives there. Some had gone to Argentina, Mexico, and Cuba by paying their way in at the beginning of the holocaust when they got out. Switzerland took in about 20,000.

Canada deported any Jews that tried to enter Canada after WW2. My mother was one of them. Even though she was a doctor in a field of specialty badly needed and had a position waiting for her at a hospital and university in Montreal, they tried to deport her in 1952. Had my father not been a war vet and been able to use his war vet connections to have a friend who was the son of a Senator pass a private bill, she would have been deported to Poland a country she never grew up in.

So when you or anyone else speak of Jews going where they did not belong let me tell you this-those that went to Israel had no choice. They were lucky it existed and if it was not for elenor Roosevelt taking on the West these refugees had no countries to live in.

To this day the Arab world says-its not our problem-Europe dumped its Jews on us. They dumped Jews? The Jews had to fight to get in then fight when they got in and to this day keep fighting precisely because people like you and they do not care for what happened to us in your world or their world and guess what- the Israelis you see have the same rights as anyone who began referring to themselves as a Palestinian as of 1967 when Arafat first coined that phrase. Until then he refused to call Palestinians just that and found the word distasteful. It was only when he failed to take over Jordan in a bloody attempt on King Hussein he suddenly began referring to himself as leader of Palestinians.

Today's Palestinians consist of who exactly? Most are descended from Arabs who are not Palestinians who moved to Israel, the West Bank and Gaza and displaced actual Palestinian Muslims and Christians. Today anyone as long as they are not Jewish can call themselves a Palestinian. The requirement is wide open.

The UN has created a special definition that only applies to Palestinians and says their next generations. Any other refugee including Jewish ones, are only refugees if they themselves flee war, not their children or children's children as is the case with "Palestinians".

The term "Palestinian" is an opportunistic political one created in 1967 by Arafat to try create a kingdom for himself. He could care less about Palestinians. For years he hijacked their money sent to them for food and placed it in his Swiss and French bank accounts and under the protection of France's Deuxieme Bureau ran heroin and hash-hish through Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza to Marseilles, France and then on to the U.S.

In return he served as a broker introducing French businessmen to Arab businesses. The French who helped build Israel's nuclear reactor switched deciding they would make more money with Arab nations and along with Britain and Germany sold mustard and nerve gas to Iraq and weapons to all kinds of Arab countries no different than China, the Us and Russia. Europe's permanent security council members are also the largest manufacturers of weapons and all are nuclear powers and all are dependent on the Middle east for oil.

You want to spin your revisionism and pretend Palestinians today are displaced refugees by evil Jews who had the nerve to want a country be my guest.

[Rue]

I am not the one revising history. Although I might have a different interpretation of that specific history.

Right. You stated Palestinians governed themselves. They did not. The Turks when they were the Ottoman empire ruled at a distance. The British then came in and used their League mandate to govern. The British not the Palestinians ruled. You revised history. You are challenged on the point and you have not been able to show Palestinians had their own country or ruled themselves. That was the point. You have no different interpretation of that specific period than I do.

[Rue]

You can spin all you want that Jews are invaders to Israel but they are no more invaders then the huge influx of Arabs who came in thanks to British immigration policies that deliberately flooded the area today known as Israel, the West Bank and Jordan while severely preventing Jewish immigration to try prevent a Jewish state.

That historic fact can't be revised and the practical reality is most people in Israel and the West Bank today are what? In Israel they come from Russia, Ethiopia, North America, South America, India and Africa. For Palestinians most are Arabs who came looking for work and still come looking for work.

You can revise history all you want the practical reality is in this region you have 2 people who have no choice as to where they live. The arm chair geniuses on this forum will not resolve the conflict nor will the revisionism change the predicament.

The solution requires a recognition of both peoples rights simultaneously. Problem right now is Abbas has said he will never recognize Israel as a JEWISH state and Hamas has a charter calling for its complete elimination with force.

You can talk all you want but until Abbas and Hamas come to their senses nothing changes. The average Palestinian wants a job, water and access through Israel to travel to see relatives or access on the West Bank free of check points. That is elementary but seems so far away as long as terrorism continues and no one listens to the average Palestinian who wants to be left alone to work.

As for Israelis, their existence will always depend on themselves. They can rely on no one but themselves. That history has rudely taught them.

[Guest American Woman]

Continental Europe managed to kill or expel most of their Jews. And for a variety of reasons many Jews no longer feel welcome in the U.K., though there is somewhat of a Jewish community in Britain. Sydney and Melbourne, Australia have a decent-sized Jewish community, and Canada has a few synagogues here and there. France actually has the third-largest Jewish community but it is gravely endangered.

That really leaves the U.S., Canada and Israel and the Jews' safe havens.

I had no idea to what extent Jews felt the need to leave - or were forced to leave. It makes support for Israel even more crucial, imo. It's interesting to note that even though the U.S. is home to almost as many Jews as Israel, Jews only make up 1.71% of our population - and that's the highest percentage of any nation outside of Israel except for Gibraltar, at 1.94%. Canada is third, with 1.11% In terms of sheer numbers, Canada is third to Israel and the U.S. with the U.K. being fourth, Russia fifth, and surprisingly, Germany has the 6th highest number. I think it's also interesting to note that just over 25% of the population of Israel is not Jewish.

[DogOnPorch]

More interesting revisionism.

How about you do some research and find out how many non Jewish people living in what is today pre-1967 Israel were "displaced" compared to the number of Jews removed from Arab countries and forced to flee to Israel.

Then when you have done that then figure out how many holocaust refugees came to Israel and how many Jews were already there contonuously since ancient days.

Instead of flipping off as if you know the history research it.

General consensus is that from the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left Muslim countries. That does not include displaced Jews from Europe or who fled other countries. Youy inter-change the two as if they are the same number and you ignore the property loss not just the displacement of Jews....etc.

From DOP's previous post: "Close to a million which is comparable to the numbers of displaced Arabs."

You want to spin your revisionism and pretend Palestinians today are displaced refugees by evil Jews who had the nerve to want a country be my guest.

I said no such thing.

If you'd like, I'll add that the Mufti and crew did tell many Arabs to flee while the fighting went on. This and an unrealistic fear of what the Jews would do if they captured Arab civilians. Now go replace the fuses you blew in your fuse-box.

[BC_chick]

As the linked article asks:

My guess would be that many of the members of movement are indeed just brainwashed misguided "do-gooders". Of course, there are some real anti-semites in the mix as well. While accusations of antisemitism are sometimes flung about lightly and carelessly, particularly on internet forums, there is also a lot more real antisemitism rampant in the world than a lot of people would care to admit.

It kind of goes both ways. Lots of people who criticise Palestinians seem to have pretty bigotted views of Muslims as well.

I think if you blame Israel's bad doings on their Jewishness, you're an anti-semite. Likewise, if you blame the Palestinians' bad bhaviour on their Muslimness, then you're anti-Muslim.

But there's nothing wrong with sympathising more with one side or the other as long as you acknowledge both sides have legitimate grievances and both sides do bad things.

[GostHacked]

You can revise history all you want the practical reality is in this region you have 2 people who have no choice as to where they live.

Jews made a choice, and called it Israel. Those who were displaced (for whatever reasons) did not have a choice.