We must stop Quebecs extortion of Canada

[cybercoma]

Why do I keep making posters meltdown like this.

[jacee]

it reflects the frustration with the insular and selfish attitude of Quebec

That's odd ... "insular and selfish" seems to very accurately depict the Alberta attitudes expressed here.

That's not to say all Albertans hold that attitude.

Neither do all Quebeckers.

Nor is such venting of animosity of any constructive value to the national conversation.

[madmax]

Except the lack of money to do so.

Provinces Legislate the Tuition, Universities collect it.

There is nothing to Stop Alberta, Manitoba, Sask from lowering tuitions.

Ontario just rebated tuitions 30%. But the Tuition is still to high.

The government should have lowered the tuition and killed the rebate as the rebate can be swallowed up by tuition increases.

It helps if the have not provinces get financial support from the federal government at the expense of the people who live in the "have" provinces.

Just so you understand. A Province with a Balanced budget or budget surplus can receive Transfer paysments.

Any Province Receiving monies, IE transfer payments helps and transfer payments have no strings attached, thus a Province can and do, foolishly give out corporate tax cuts thus negating much of the transfer.

Same with a have or have not PRovince, regardless of the transfer payments they can set the price of tuition.

Plain and Simple.

So what? If the government is in a hole as it is what can they do to lower tuition?

Education is the best investment. Why load up student debt?

Heck the Federal Government is in the largest whole any federal government has ever been in and its spending in my region like a drunken sailor. Pork for everyone.

How about $800,000 last month alone to stop EXPLODING SAUSAGES.

I am well acquainted with this point as I am still paying off student loans.

Yes, and students pay except in the "have" provinces pay between 2 to 5 times the tuition that a student in a so called "have not" province pays.

Well, go and figure it out.

A HAVE Province has more wealth Per capita and capital then a Have Not Province.

IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITHHELD AND KEPT ALL THE TAXES instead of transferring.

It would mean less funds to the have not Provinces, Perhaps they would have to raise corporate taxes to make up the difference or increase the Provincial portion of the HST or possibly kill the program or run a deficit.

However this would have NO bearing on a HAVE province.

So ask yourself,

Why are these Provinces with great wealth gouging students.

Edited September 12, 2012 by madmax

[madmax]

Regardless of the minute technicalities...if Quebec hates Canada so much, and they said numerous times as soon as they are on decent financial footing they will attempt separation again. So it means while Quebec can profit from Canada it stays, but as soon as it has to contribute it wants out. This debate is not on how Quebec exactly gets its help from Canada, but the principle is that they really don't like Canada, but are willing to take what they can while it suits them.

Like the example of the spouse that hates you, that takes your money, uses it for their benefit, you bend over backwards to accommodate, contributes nothing, and tells you as soon as she can they're divorcing you.

You want a divorce? Fine, you don't like Canada fine. Take your share of the debt, no more help, manage on your own if being in Canada is such a burden.

Canada is the greatest country in the world, safe, great opportunity, a nice balance of business incentives and social services... I hate it when people bash Canada.

BTW this has nothing to do with the language. If someone doesn't like Canada, no matter the language, get out. I don't understand why we need to bend over backwards for anyone.

I really don't know what you are trying to say.

1) The People of Quebec made a major shift and dropped the BQ federally. The Separatist party is at 4 seats I think?

2) You expect the People of Quebec to stick with a corrupted Liberal Government?

3) If I recall correctly the PQ got is in the 30% range, a weak minority government, and many people who voted PQ aren;t voting for Separation, they are VOTING OUT the Liberals.

Your rants are radical and full of puffery.

Oh and I hate it when people bash Canada.

That includes bashing BC, Alberta, Sask, Man, Ont, Que, NS, NFLD, NB, PEI,

and the territories.

Edited September 12, 2012 by madmax

[madmax]

They voted for a separatist government, the CAQ was no better. Merge both together. Right now Quebec is a net beneficiary of payments from Canada, you think if Quebec had to pay that the separatist movement won't come back in full force?

Its unfortuneate that you live in Quebec and have no idea of the political parties, their platforms and the difference between a sovereignist party and one that isn't.

You need to educate yourself

Your ignorance of the Province you live in needs to be improved.

Your understanding of transfer payments is incorrect.

But you do have an opinion like everyone else.

You might be successful in fooling someone else with your knowledge of Quebec.

But many people here are well informed and others are crazy constitutional policy wonks.

There are a number of Quebec oriented policies you could speak to.

They should go into the Provincial Section of the forum.

But your federal argument is sadly flawed.

Some of us have been around since the before the inception of the PQ , the growth of the political separatist movement of the PQ.

And todays Quebec doesn't compare to the past.

This is the first time in 20 years that a Federal Party controls the most seats in Quebec.

This is the first time a PQ government has taken power with a lowly 32%

That means 68% don't support the PQ at the ballot box.

And that is after facing a tired worn, and corrupted Liberal Government.

[pete t teepee]

cybercoma... thanks for taking the effort, the line-by-line effort, to dissect the voluminous Corporal's rambling nonsense, particularly his complete lack of understanding of equalization payments. Of course, threads like this draw out the usual separatist bent crew. I pulled out the above exchange to reinforce the most pertinent point that Quebeckers, as the people of any province do, elect the party they believe will best represent Quebec's interests... interests which reflect upon Quebeckers more (relatively) recent expressed desire to NOT separate from Canada... no matter the disinformation campaign/agenda of the Canada_james types on MLW. Of course, this plainly evident fact is always lost on the clouded thinkers who can't rationalize Quebecker's voting for the BLOC... or the PQ... while having no interest in separating from Canada.

I second this. Cyber opened a can of logic whoopass! Look at the bright side guys...you could always rejoin your FB page with 10 different email accounts and bump your membership to 30!

[pete t teepee]

I second this. Cyber opened a can of logic whoopass! Look at the bright side guys...you could always rejoin your FB page with 10 different email accounts and bump your membership to 30!

P.S. I still think the OP is Pauline Marois incognito

[madmax]

I second this. Cyber opened a can of logic whoopass! Look at the bright side guys...you could always rejoin your FB page with 10 different email accounts and bump your membership to 30!

Sometimes when an argument is going so bad for one side, I stop, toss in a couple facts to help support their positions, especially if I think the debate has merit or integrity.

The problem with this thread, and we have had threads before on the transfer payments and such that have been very detailed, factual and heated,

but the ones jumping on the anti Quebec Bandwagon (An ez scapegoat cause of many of the positions that the Separatists present)

Are attacking the very thing they want their Province to do, and their Province can provide these very things if they had the political will to do so.

Blaming Quebec For

Affordable Child Care

Lower Tuitions

Is a fools endeavour.

However, if one lived in Quebec and stated, hey, we are running a deficit and can't afford $7 childcare......

That is a different argument altogether.

I also found it absurd that the CAQ was presented as a separatist party.

the PQ was more concerned with the Fringe QS splitting the Separatist vote.

I can see that CanadaJames wants to fan the flames.

But to do so, you need to have a few facts to start with beyond "I hate Quebec"

[Benz]

find in relation to the just completed election showed that 70% of Quebecker's were against separation.

That's hasardous. 30% is lower than what PQ got. Considering that ON, which is an impatient independentist party is 4%, plus QS at 6%. Considering also that in CAQ, you can find alot of sovereignists that just think it's not the right time and are against a referendum in short term, but are still in favor of sovereignty... I suggest you don't do "all in" in your assertion.

It's much safer to say that at most 30% of the population want to keep the status quo forever and always.

The constitutional dead end nourishes the nationalism in Québec much better than the sovereignists can do themselve. It is not because one says he doesn't want separation today that he won't vote yes tomorrow. The context is important. I woudn't want Marois to start a referendum not because I am against sovereignty, because I don't think it's a good time to do so.

But the most important point is... why aren't interested to figure why the people could want such thing. You short cut to the most simplistic reasonning. If the people vote yes, it is because they swallowed the crap from the separatists. It doesn't turn on your lightswitch that maybe your country is to blame. Despite all the explanations I posted in this forum. To you, your country is perfect and only people with bad will would want to seperate. All the provinces and the federal teamed up together to exclude Québec from the constitution. So what! The Québécois don't care about that because it's not important, eh? We are telling the Québécois to shut up and accept to be rejected, it cannot be under any circumstances be a motivation to leave the union. Nooo, never!

[Benz]

madmax, jacee, cybercoma,

From Québec, we hear, see and read alot of anti-Québec stuff from english Canada. Even in this forum the ratio is very high. But my feeling is, they are not that many and the silent majority isn't buy it that, or at least, if they were not that much misinformed, they would not jump into the anti-Québec bandwagon.

What's your thought about it? How much adepts in percentage that school of thought has among the population?

[Signals.Cpl]

There's a difference between PAYMENTS received from the federal government and what the federal government spends on its operations in the province. If you end equalization payments, the federal government still has to spend money on military, first nations, seaways, inland fisheries, postal services, EI, etc. etc. etc. That stuff doesn't go away and it's not a transfer or payment to the province. Québec provides the federal government with 20% of their revenues from income taxes. When you look at the money that Québec gets back in the form of a free-and-clear payment, it's much much less than what they're sending to Ottawa. Moreover, the equalization payment that they receive is out of their control. It's based on the federal governments formula that determines a province's fiscal capacity.

If we take the money that the federal government must spend on the provinces as you kindly pointed out and we subtract it from the money that Quebec's tax payers invest in the federal government it should be about even THEN you add the equalization payments which mean that ALL spending ON and IN Quebec exceeds the money taken in the form of taxes and other sources of income for the federal government from the Province of Quebec.

Equlization payments go towards whatever the province wants to put them towards. That's the same for Québec and every other province in the country.

Exactly, lower tuition, 7 dollars a day daycare...

The question you need to be asking is how is any of this Québec's fault or responsibility? Their budget and tax rate have nothing to do with what the federal government sends to them.

Once again, the fault lies in Quebec when a sizeable chunk of Quebecers decide that they will complain about how unfairly they are treated and how they are being screwed by the rest of us. My problem lies in the fact that no matter what the ROC does, or how much money we invest in Quebec they will always complain about being screwed by the rest of us...or at least a portion of the Provincial population.

Big deal. Other provinces have seats in international organizations, so scratch that. Québec has more say over immigration and has embassies in other countries for obvious reasons.

What provinces have seats in international organizations? And what are the so obvious reasons to require Quebec to have embassies overseas and direct control over immigration? They have no more reason to have control over immigration and their own embassies then Ontario or Alberta yet they do.

You're pretty sure? Ok. So you're making up a position for separatists in order to fight against it? Got it.

Nope, I have seen enough on the subject to know that this is the position of the separatists, they were trying to get more votes in 1995 by promising that even if Quebec separates Quebecers will still get to keep their Canadian citizenship, keep the Canadian currency, automatically join the same organizations that Canada belongs to... and the best one was people in industries protected by the Federal government being prop separatists which leads me to believe that they did not think things through since the assumption would be that Canada would protect Quebec's industries even if Quebec is independent.

Equalization payments are out of Québec's control. Favouring Québec companies is wrong when you consider that industry in Canada is concentrated in Ontario/Québec and the proper open-tender process for procurement and contracts.

Yeah but tell that to the western provinces...

Who's whining and crying?What are they whining and crying about? How are they hard done by? Are they complaining that they don't get enough money or do they have some other complaints?

Separatist cry and whine about being screwed over by the ROC, not getting their fair share.

It doesn't matter what they use them for. They use them for the exact same thing every other province that gets equalization payments uses them for.

So it went from they don't use it for education to it doesn't matter what they use it for?

Prove that they get more than their fair share. The formula is the exact same for every province. Québec doesn't get an additional top-up over and above the equalization formula. They get the exact same thing every other province in the country gets.

And then when all other accounts are settled we have the equalization payments, which means that they get a nice chunk of change to play with, they get more than BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Equalization payments make roughly 10% of their budget which means that Canadians from the "have" provinces are supporting Quebec which is a "have not" province but at the same time has better services than the "have" provinces.

Why does sovereignty mean superiority to you?

See sovereignty at least to me does not mean superiority because they will quickly see the difference between living as part of a stable prosperous nation and as an independent third world nation. I am all for Quebec getting independence, it will once and for all solve the problem when they realize the grass most definitely is not greener on the other side.

Sounds like a personal issue.

For me the issue is the attitude of the separatists who see their language and culture as far superior than the rest of us, the belief that they should be equal to the ROC and should have an equal voice even though they are 8million compared to 26million from the ROC.

Does gaining independence from your parents when you become an adult mean you're superior to them?

No, it does not. But then again my issue is not separatist wanting independence, I am all for Quebec getting their independence. My issue is them wanting independence as part of Canada and and their attitude that their language and culture are far superior than the culture and language of the ROC.

From the highest provincial income tax rates in the nation and from the federal tax dollars Quebeckers send to Ottawa that gets re-alocated to the province to spend as it wants.

So is it your opinion that equalization payments come out of the pocket of Quebecers 100%?

Median household income in Québec is greater than all of the Atlantic provinces and within $1000 of Manitoba and British Columbia. The only provinces with a significantly higher median income are Ontario, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. Apparently, middle of the pack is one of the lowest incomes to you. Not only are they middle of the pack, but they also have one of the largest populations in the country. So yeah.... Québec gets its revenues from its citizens.

GDP per capita, they are 4th from the bottom. And dropping since 2010.

Of course I'm not saying that. Equalization payments are in place for a reason. Look into it.

Is the reason for the "have not" provinces to provide better services than the "have" provinces at the expense of the "have" provinces?

You wouldn't ask this question if you understood how and why Canada has equalization payments.

If you read in to their $7/day daycare you would understand that without the ROC they would not have managed to provide that service and it is fiscally irresponsible for the ROC to even think about it unless the US wants to sponsor the ROC like the ROC sponsored Quebec. Read up on the program and tell me if it is a responsible decision and if it pays of in 200 years.

Funny how you say the federal government giving private businesses a contract is assistance to the provincial government.

It is assistance when they are the company with less experience and a higher cost... any normal business would have chosen the company with more experience and lower cost but when Quebec cries out the Federal government has the screw the ROC to oblige.

The federal government has operations. They need work done; they go find a contractor.

Yeah but the one that is better is not necessarily the one they choose. It will not count as assistance if they choose the best offer, it counts as assistance if they overlook the best offer in favour of making Quebec happy.

This has nothing to do with Québec, transfer payments, equalization, or federal-provincial fiscal relations.

It most certainly does, Quebec says it is not getting its fair share of contracts and the Federal government trips over themselves to give them contracts.

I never once said that. Equalization payments go towards whatever the province wants to spend them on. If you need me to explain to you how they work and why we have them, then you should spend some time on parliament's website and look it up.

You keep saying that the Equalizations payments did not pay for the post-secondary education or the other services, then you promptly back away from your own comments. I want you to explain to me since I want to see how you understand the equalization payments.

Begging for more what? Every province puts their hand out when the federal government is spending money. If they're not, then that's the shortcoming of those provincial governments, not a fault of a Québec's.

Federal government contracts, a few years ago the CF purchased new transport planes, and Quebec was complaining that they didn't get a portion of the maintenance contract even though they did not provide the best offer.

I don't actually see Québec demanding any more than the other provinces.

They want more federal contracts, they want more independence yet I haven't heard a separatist offer to stop taking the equalization payments.

Didn't Ontario MPs demand a billion dollar bridge?

And does that make the lives of the people of Ontario so much better? Significant difference between getting money for better services and an ill-thoughout plan to improve the flow of goods and services.

Didn't Tony Clement build multimillion dollar gazebos?

Good for him, that sure as help helps kids all over ontario pay for their tuition.

Didn't Nova Scotia and New Brunswick get billion dollar ship building contracts?

Pretty hard to give them to Manitoba don't you think?

Oh, but Québec got the CF-18 contract. Those selfish bastards.

Yeah, they did get it even though they were in a competition with a company that offered a lower price and had more experience in industry. They received that contract 100% based on regional politics.

[waldo]

Exactly, lower tuition, 7 dollars a day daycare...

And then when all other accounts are settled we have the equalization payments, which means that they get a nice chunk of change to play with, they get more than BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan. Equalization payments make roughly 10% of their budget which means that Canadians from the "have" provinces are supporting Quebec which is a "have not" province but at the same time has better services than the "have" provinces.

If you read in to their $7/day daycare you would understand that without the ROC they would not have managed to provide that service and it is fiscally irresponsible for the ROC to even think about it...

you continue to embarrass yourself - MLW member, 'cybercoma', already schooled you on equalization payments... you refused to read/learn! I'd suggest you step back and take the time to actually understand how equalization works. Any province receiving equalization does so based upon the exact same criteria, population & the programs 'fiscal capacity standard'. Given it's large population base, Quebec does receive the most in terms of total equalization payment; however, on a per capita basis, for the 2012-13 period, Quebec will actually receive the second lowest amount of equalization payment.

you persist in repeatedly beating yourself up over, "$7/day daycare & lowest tuition". Even if Quebec dropped its daycare program or Quebec students had their tuition raised to the levels of other provinces, neither would affect the equalization payment. As you were repeatedly advised, the real question should be why the so-called 'have provinces' choose not to offer the same daycare/tuition 'services' to their own populations.

[g_bambino]

[Y]ou persist in repeatedly beating yourself up over, "$7/day daycare & lowest tuition".

I think perhaps his main point, even if he is wrong about some others, is that Quebec nationalists publicly denounce as intrusive and oppressive the same majority, "Rest of Canada", and, as they see it, "English Canada" population that contributes the lion's share of the equalisation payments Quebec receives and uses to, in part, fund the generous social programmes those same nationalists enjoy. If Quebec were exempted from the equalisation programme, so that its population neither contributed nor received (thereby keeping their own money and getting nobody else's), the province would have much more difficulty paying for the aforementioned social benefits. Yet, that doesn't seem to register with the whinging, xenophobic nationalists.

[cybercoma]

Signals, I apologize for not having time to go through you post at the moment, but I want to address the first thing you said about how the federal government "must spend money on Québec." The federal government is not required to spend money "on Québec" as you've characterized it. The federal government has federal operations that they are obligated to fulfill according to the Constitution Act. This is not spending money on Québec. It's spending money on Canada, regardless of whether it's in Québec or not. Look at Base Gagetown in New Brunswick. The government spends a crapload of money keeping that place operational. Why? Because it's integral to our armed forces. That's something good for everyone in Canada, not just New Brunswickers. So, you might want to take a step back and really evaluate your perspective that federal spending is spending on the provinces. It's not and I haven't implied that at all.

Edited September 12, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

I think perhaps his main point, even if he is wrong about some others, is that Quebec nationalists publicly denounce as intrusive and oppressive the same majority, "Rest of Canada", and, as they see it, "English Canada" population that contributes the lion's share of the equalisation payments Quebec receives and uses to, in part, fund the generous social programmes those same nationalists enjoy. If Quebec were exempted from the equalisation programme, so that its population neither contributed nor received (thereby keeping their own money and getting nobody else's), the province would have much more difficulty paying for the aforementioned social benefits. Yet, that doesn't seem to register with the whinging, xenophobic nationalists.

I've got a good idea to help them keep their own money. They keep paying the same federal income tax rate as all other Canadians and the federal government sends them a cheque that they can spend any way they please. This will be made up entirely of their own money. We'll call it... I dunno.... an equalization payment. This will be much lower than the total amount of federal tax collected by the province as a whole because, of course, it's only a partial rebate. The federal government will keep the rest, pool it with the rest of the money they collect, then run deficits (as they've been doing) to fulfill the rest of their obligations under the Constitution.

[Benz]

For me the issue is the attitude of the separatists who see their language and culture as far superior than the rest of us

1) Language. None of us say our language are superior, where the heck did you find that?

2) We don't think our culture is superior at all. Just different. We just want to protect it.

the belief that they should be equal to the ROC and should have an equal voice even though they are 8million compared to 26million from the ROC.

That's how it work in every normal union. The nations have an equal say in the constitution. Only the constitution, not in the HC, where it's by ratio. Once the rules are set in the constitution, all individuals, no matter what culture they are from, are equal.

Is the reason for the "have not" provinces to provide better services than the "have" provinces at the expense of the "have" provinces?

Few years ago, the biggest "have" province was Newfoundland. Yet, they were still the biggest losers anyway. Because the provincial was getting only a tiny part of the oil income from the offshore. The equalization is a weird mutualisation where the rules are chosen by the federal instead of sometime that every one agree on. The program doesn't considere the other federal programs.

They want more federal contracts, they want more independence yet I haven't heard a separatist offer to stop taking the equalization payments.

I have no problems to stop equalization... but then the federal must stop nuclear program, oil program that only Alberta, maybe Saskatchewan now, benefit from it. I mean all programs that Québec do not get their fair share. Stop all that! The federal would then stop collecting all that money and the provinces can raise the taxes. no problem with that! I think it would be unfair for the atlantic provinces. I'm not against the equalization principle. I think it is not structured the way it should and most of all, I hate the hypocrisy behind it.

What you are doing is, you are looking at what Québec recieves and you close your eyes on what it doesn't recieve and ends up in the others' hands. It's pretty obvious in such context that you end up to the conclusion that Québec is milking Canada. If you apply the same practice, it's possible to think Africa is milking America.

[jbg]

What you are doing is, you are looking at what Québec recieves and you close your eyes on what it doesn't recieve and ends up in the others' hands. It's pretty obvious in such context that you end up to the conclusion that Québec is milking Canada. If you apply the same practice, it's possible to think Africa is milking America.

Well, it is.

And that's my problem with the U.N., but I deal with that on other threads.

[Patrik]

Two observations on this topic.

1. This should not come as a big surprise to Canadians that one province is being bailed out by other provinces. In fact this is the main idea of socialism: take from "rich" and give to "poor".

By the way, such things take place in way too many areas of our life in Canada. The huge Canadian public sector is the real monument to "social justice".

2. The government is not interested in Quebec separation. Its purpose is to create provincial entities dependent on Ottawa. That's how it stays big, preserves its power and controls the society.

But this is behind the scene. On the stage we see all political parties play a circus to entertain the sluggish public. They have their own agenda: to be elected and re-elected by the Quebec residents from one or another side.

And at the same time nobody from the establishment really want Quebec to separate. They are smart enough to understand real consequences of the separation, and first of all - economical.

So as progressive people, what you can do about Quebec and Canada? My opinion is that we should allow a separation referendum eventually succeed. Support separatists. And I don't think the separation will be a "punishment". Let them make this step and become a self-sufficient and responsible sovereign country.

And the last observation is about very active and very vocal contributors to this thread.

Are you guys consistent and honest to yourself when you add very angry comments here? Don't you think that if you stand against socialism on inter-provincial level, you should do the same for ALL socialism features in Canada? This is not always the case, unfortunately. Way too many Canadians are outraged about Quebec but at the same time vote for "free" health care, "free" education, and all "free breakfasts" in this country.

Is this a double thinking and double standard mind?

[g_bambino]

The nations have an equal say in the constitution. Only the constitution, not in the HC, where it's by ratio. Once the rules are set in the constitution, all individuals, no matter what culture they are from, are equal.

And that's how it is now in Canada.

[jacee]

Why do I keep making posters meltdown like this.

Truth hurts them?

[Benz]

And that's how it is now in Canada.

No. The constitution says all individuals are equal and the rules are the same for everyone, that part is fine. But only the english canadians can set the rules. So if our nations do not agree on those rules, the english side can apply their rules and the french are then second class citizens flooded by an english majority. Perhaps after the 517th times I repeat this you will start to understand and then be able to answer something meaningful, whether it is to figure I'm right or at least you being able to make a valid point and prove me I'm wrong.

Well, it is.

And that's my problem with the U.N., but I deal with that on other threads.

No. The multinationals suck up all African resources for almost nothing and the african people are kept into extreme poverty even if their resources should bring them to a greater living standard.

[g_bambino]

[O]nly the english canadians can set the rules.

No. The constitution is clear that no province's system of governance, borders, or powers can be altered without the approval of that particular province's parliament.