Canada closes embassy in Iran, expels diplomats.

[cybercoma]

So you accept that they're shutting down this embassy, even laud it, and you admit you're really not entirely sure what embassies are for or what they do there. I mean, would it really help if I made you a list of everything they do at embassies? Do I need to explain diplomatic theory? It seems you've already made up your mind.

[Signals.Cpl]

Actually, come to think of it there was some discussion recently about this because authorities were going to raid an embassy to get the WikiLeaks guy. so you should be aware of these things. They were even hesitant to arrest a single person in an embassy.

I'm talking about a potential wartime situation, Canada has proven that we will use our embassy resources and staff to help the US and even if not directly involved in a conflict with Iran we would be highly suspect. Its one thing for the British to raid an embassy to get a alleged rapist during peacetime, its another thing for Iran to do so during wartime with the evidence that we forged documents to get Americans out.

[cybercoma]

I'm talking about a potential wartime situation, Canada has proven that we will use our embassy resources and staff to help the US and even if not directly involved in a conflict with Iran we would be highly suspect. Its one thing for the British to raid an embassy to get a alleged rapist during peacetime, its another thing for Iran to do so during wartime with the evidence that we forged documents to get Americans out.

Then this is a declaration of war against Iran according to what you're saying.

[GostHacked]

Is it? Depends on how you define the point of origin of an attack.

Consider Pearl Harbour. If the USA had seen the Japanese war fleet steaming towards them, would it not have been a defensive move to attack that fleet first? After all, it would have been obvious that there was no other reason for a huge passle of warships to come barreling down at them!

A blockade could have happened. But if the US knew they were coming they would have put up a better defense. And since Japan attacked first, then retaliation is warranted.

With atom bombs it is even more crucial! Israel is watching a declared enemy, who has aided and abetted groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to rain rockets down on sleeping civilians, develop the capability of not just an atomic bomb but the rockets to deliver it on top of Jerusalem. The diplomatic rhetoric from the rulers of Iran is hateful and vindictive, to say the very least.

We heard all about this bullshit regarding Iraq and the mushroom cloud. How did that turn out?

Iran could be far more transparent with International inspections if it wanted to prove that it does not have the capability of nuking Israel, or perhaps even some Arab neighbour. It wasn't that long ago it was in a fierce war with Iraq.

Only if we can inspect Israels suspected nuclear stockpile and programs. You want to be fair right? If Israel does have nukes, then they would be best to show theirs before expecting others to reveal theirs.

It has chosen to do precisely the opposite! As far as Iran is concerned, it has a right to nuclear capability and the rest of the world can just piss off!

And that what is has always been stated as. But yet the rhetoric is that they are building a bomb.

Your argument seems to be that everyone should just take Iran at its word until and unless it has nuked a city or two, no matter what we see and hear before then. Very easy for YOU to say!

If you are wrong, an "oopsie" from folks who believe as you do will not bring back a single innocent life.

I'll break out the tinfoil for this, do you understand the concept of a false flag attack? I am more worried about someone setting them up. It's happened before to other countries. We don't need to go down the same path. The west has already committed acts of terrorism against Iran by taking out their nuclear research facility and the attacks on the compounds that hold the national guard. And we still end up giving them shit if they support entities like Hezbollah. We support terrorism as well, which I am not comfortable with. We cannot take any high road if we are doing the exact same things as other countries labeled as sponsors of terrorism.

I did not really want to turn this into another 'Israel' thread, but it seems when talking about Iran and their nuke program, Israel always comes into the conversation.

Israel is a big boy, let them handle it and then face the repercussions of violating international law. Why why why why do we have to be involved in the Missile East.

[Signals.Cpl]

Then this is a declaration of war against Iran according to what you're saying.

No, this is us getting the frig out of there before we need to send in soldiers to rescue our people. Our Government realizes that we have little say if Iran is to be attacked or not... therefore we need to protect our citizens because who else will?

[cybercoma]

No, this is us getting the frig out of there before we need to send in soldiers to rescue our people.

But you said above that this was acceptable in wartime. Which means if they're shutting down the embassy, the Canadian government is signalling that it is wartime, therefore declaring war against Iran because Iran certainly hasn't declared war on Canada.

[GostHacked]

Raiding an embassy is an open declaration of war that would be instantly condemned by every nation on the planet. In fact, it is considered in international law to be the same thing as launching an attack on that nation's soil. Every country on the planet would cut diplomatic ties with them.

I think that is a problem with how embassies are regulated I guess. If a country wants to have an embassy in Canada, then I would prefer it that the embassy NOT be considered sovereign territory of another nation.

IN Ottawa we have the US Embassy. After 9/11 They took over half the road running in front, beefed up security everywhere and even has some of the roads changed to accommodate their new safety concerns. The US asked and Canada gave it to them. We should have the right to inspect those embassies whenever we want. If they want to play here, then go by our rules. If we raid an embassy here, good, last time I checked I was in Canada.

Do you know anything about the foreign service, out of curiosity? Because it sounds an awful lot like you're just making stuff up as you go. It doesn't seem like you really know the kind of work that our embassies and ambassadors carry out.

I view embassies as a facilitator of globalization.

[cybercoma]

I think that is a problem with how embassies are regulated I guess. If a country wants to have an embassy in Canada, then I would prefer it that the embassy NOT be considered sovereign territory of another nation.

IN Ottawa we have the US Embassy. After 9/11 They took over half the road running in front, beefed up security everywhere and even has some of the roads changed to accommodate their new safety concerns. The US asked and Canada gave it to them. We should have the right to inspect those embassies whenever we want. If they want to play here, then go by our rules. If we raid an embassy here, good, last time I checked I was in Canada.

I view embassies as a facilitator of globalization.

The key being that the US asked for those changes. We could have declined to accommodate them.

You may think it's all ducky to raid and inspect embassies here, but you think nothing about the safety of our people working abroad. Can you imagine if they could have their embassies raided on a whim? Do you really think we would be able to do the peacekeeping work sneaking people out of dangerous situations if that were possible? You would threaten the lives of not only the embassy workers, but all Canadians travelling abroad with such a policy.

[Signals.Cpl]

But you said above that this was acceptable in wartime. Which means if they're shutting down the embassy, the Canadian government is signalling that it is wartime, therefore declaring war against Iran because Iran certainly hasn't declared war on Canada.

I am saying that waiting till a war breaks out will be too late for those people on the ground. War may or may not happen but it is the job of the Government of Canada to get our citizens alive rather than body bags, with more and more restrictions placed on Iran one spark could bring forth a war and we may not get months, weeks, days or even hours of warning so for the government it means that its would be better to keep our people safe then to explain to their families that the government gambled with their lives.

[cybercoma]

I am saying that waiting till a war breaks out will be too late for those people on the ground. War may or may not happen but it is the job of the Government of Canada to get our citizens alive rather than body bags]

Without an embassy in the country, who's going to carry out that job? The government is an abstract concept. It works through people.

[Signals.Cpl]

Without an embassy in the country, who's going to carry out that job? The government is an abstract concept. It works through people.

Carry out what job? I was told that when overseas and if in trouble to go to the British Or American Embassy because I would likely receive more help than from a Canadian Embassy which is slow to help with very limited abilities. Right now the government says that you should go to Iran, and if you do go it would be at your own risk.

[GostHacked]

The key being that the US asked for those changes. We could have declined to accommodate them.

You may think it's all ducky to raid and inspect embassies here, but you think nothing about the safety of our people working abroad. Can you imagine if they could have their embassies raided on a whim? Do you really think we would be able to do the peacekeeping work sneaking people out of dangerous situations if that were possible? You would threaten the lives of not only the embassy workers, but all Canadians travelling abroad with such a policy.

When in other countries, play by their rules, or simply stay home.

[cybercoma]

Carry out what job? I was told that when overseas and if in trouble to go to the British Or American Embassy because I would likely receive more help than from a Canadian Embassy which is slow to help with very limited abilities. Right now the government says that you should go to Iran, and if you do go it would be at your own risk.

We close our embassy then rely on the American and British foreign service to help our citizens out?

People may or may not be going to Iran for myriad reasons. People could have business or family there. Who knows? It doesn't matter.

What's important to keep in mind is that there are at least 2 Canadians there right now as I type this facing the death sentence and we're turning our backs on them.

[Signals.Cpl]

We close our embassy then rely on the American and British foreign service to help our citizens out?

I don't think the British or Americans will be in much of a position to help their own citizens so we will be all in the same boat.

People may or may not be going to Iran for myriad reasons. People could have business or family there. Who knows? It doesn't matter.

I don't think we should risk people's lives just become some idiot(s) decided to go to Iran for business or pleasure. If you are told not to go to country X then don't go there, if you decide to go to country X do not expect any help because we have no assets on the ground to help you.

What's important to keep in mind is that there are at least 2 Canadians there right now as I type this facing the death sentence and we're turning our backs on them.

And how has the embassy done anything of use to them? I think it was a mistake to kick the Iranian diplomats out of Ottawa but when it comes to keeping Canadians safe, I am all for it.

[cybercoma]

I don't think we should risk people's lives just become some idiot(s) decided to go to Iran for business or pleasure. If you are told not to go to country X then don't go there, if you decide to go to country X do not expect any help because we have no assets on the ground to help you.

Who says it's for "pleasure"?

Say you're a Canadian citizen. You were born in Iran. Your family suffered all kinds of hardships due to political conflicts with the ruling elites. You made it out and made a life for yourself in Canada. Your mother is still in Iran and has fallen ill. She's going to die in a matter of weeks. There's no open violence or conflict in Iran, but Canada tells you you're not allowed to go. What do you do?

I think most people tell the Canadian government to f___ off.

Ironically, you would be one of the first posters to decry the government for restricting people's freedoms and liberties if they told you where you could and couldn't go.

And how has the embassy done anything of use to them? I think it was a mistake to kick the Iranian diplomats out of Ottawa but when it comes to keeping Canadians safe, I am all for it.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and explain to you the day-to-day work at an embassy. If you don't think they're arranging legal counsel and doing what they can to have them freed, then you obviously have no idea what function an embassy serves.

If you don't know what they do at an embassy, maybe you shouldn't be so vocal in your opposition to it.

[dre]

Yeah but they have a history of covert aggression... but I guess that doesn't count does it?

THey play the same games that everyone else does sure. But for the most part they have just defended themselves against brutal invasions and attempts by their neighbors to wipe them out.

The threats to global security are the ones starting all these major wars based on garbage intelligence, and the useful idiots that support them.

[Signals.Cpl]

THey play the same games that everyone else does sure. But for the most part they have just defended themselves against brutal invasions and attempts by their neighbors to wipe them out.

The threats to global security are the ones starting all these major wars based on garbage intelligence, and the useful idiots that support them.

So they are not the peaceful innocent nice guys you portray them as are they? The Question is are you willing to put weapons that could potentially wipe out hundreds of thousands or millions of lives in their hands when their rhetoric is so openly genocidal? Would you have the same attitude if I said I will kill you and your whole emily if I had a rifle, and then I was trying to get a rifle for the purpose of "hunting"? People see Iran, and say they are peaceful even though all they talk about was wiping out the jews, which doesn't seem to nice or peaceful to me, I hope we all know what happened when the last guy said he wanted to get rid of some jews.

[Signals.Cpl]

Who says it's for "pleasure"?

Say you're a Canadian citizen. You were born in Iran. Your family suffered all kinds of hardships due to political conflicts with the ruling elites. You made it out and made a life for yourself in Canada. Your mother is still in Iran and has fallen ill. She's going to die in a matter of weeks. There's no open violence or conflict in Iran, but Canada tells you you're not allowed to go. What do you do?

I think most people tell the Canadian government to f___ off.

Canada does not say you CANT go, the government says you SHOULD NOT go but if you must be really careful and you are on your own. You can take the most heart wrenching story and it still doesn't change the fact that you go to a dangerous place by your own choice. People have to be responsible for the decisions in their lives, no matter how hard or sad they may be, if you choose to go you should go with the knowledge that you are on your own.

Ironically, you would be one of the first posters to decry the government for restricting people's freedoms and liberties if they told you where you could and couldn't go.

What was it you were saying about me telling people how they would act, or how they feel or think?

The Government is NOT I repeat NOT forbidding you to go, they are saying that you SHOULD NOT I say again SHOULD NOT go!

OFFICIAL WARNING: Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada advises against all travel to Iran.

http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/report_rapport-eng.asp?id=132000

Maybe you need to reread what they are saying.

And here goes your theory about the sick mother:

Dual citizenship

In the context of heightened regional tensions, Iranian-Canadian dual citizens may be particularly vulnerable to investigation and harassment by Iranian authorities. Canadians who have Iranian nationality are warned in particular that the Iranian regime does not recognize the principle of dual citizenship. By doing so, Iran makes it virtually impossible for Government of Canada officials to provide consular assistance to Iranian-Canadians in difficulty.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and explain to you the day-to-day work at an embassy.

I have a good understanding of the day to day work that goes on in an embassy.

If you don't think they're arranging legal counsel and doing what they can to have them freed, then you obviously have no idea what function an embassy serves.

They are bound to the laws of the land, the land being Iran and the law being that such a thing as a dual citizenship does not exist. You can't help a Canadian if Iran does not recognize him as a Canadian.

If you don't know what they do at an embassy, maybe you shouldn't be so vocal in your opposition to it.

If you don't know that the Embassy can't do anything to help a dual citizen of Iran and Canada maybe you should not be so vocal. The diplomats and embassy staff may work hard, but when their hands are essentially tied that does not equal to much.

[dre]

So they are not the peaceful innocent nice guys you portray them as are they? The Question is are you willing to put weapons that could potentially wipe out hundreds of thousands or millions of lives in their hands when their rhetoric is so openly genocidal? Would you have the same attitude if I said I will kill you and your whole emily if I had a rifle, and then I was trying to get a rifle for the purpose of "hunting"? People see Iran, and say they are peaceful even though all they talk about was wiping out the jews, which doesn't seem to nice or peaceful to me, I hope we all know what happened when the last guy said he wanted to get rid of some jews.

Their rhetoric isnt genocidal at all. All that bullshit comes from cherry picking a couple of quotes about the Israeli regime. You conveniently ignore a whole bunch of other shit Irans leader has said.

Would you have the same attitude if I said I will kill you and your whole emily if I had a rifle, and then I was trying to get a rifle for the purpose of "hunting"?

Problem is nobody said that.

People see Iran, and say they are peaceful even though all they talk about was wiping out the jews

Again nobody said that. And Iran has thousands of its own Jews, and has executed precisely 7 of them in the last 30 years, compared to hundreds of muslims. Seems like that would be a pretty easy place to start.

I hope we all know what happened when the last guy said he wanted to get rid of some jews.

:lol:

So they are not the peaceful innocent nice guys you portray them as are they?

No but there more peaceful than WE are, thats for god damn sure. And they arent as bad as all the moronic western propoganda makes them out to be either. All that shit is just posturing for the benefit of retards dumb enough to believe it.

[Signals.Cpl]

Their rhetoric isnt genocidal at all. All that bullshit comes from cherry picking a couple of quotes about the Israeli regime. You conveniently ignore a whole bunch of other shit Irans leader has said.

So is it your view that we should ignore the comment from their leaders about the destruction of Israel? There are well documented comments made about wanting to destroy Israel, we should ignore those.

You know what I find really sad? The events of World War Two could have been avoided if somebody had bothered to read the book of a little Austrian Corporal and taken him seriously. He wrote a book and in that book he wrote what he will do if given half a chance, and we saw what happened when nobody bothered to read what he wrote. This guy is making it twice as easy, he is telling us exactly what they want to do to Israel should they get the chance and people don't want to believe that either. I wonder what the next guy will do...

[dre]

So is it your view that we should ignore the comment from their leaders about the destruction of Israel? There are well documented comments made about wanting to destroy Israel, we should ignore those.

You know what I find really sad? The events of World War Two could have been avoided if somebody had bothered to read the book of a little Austrian Corporal and taken him seriously. He wrote a book and in that book he wrote what he will do if given half a chance, and we saw what happened when nobody bothered to read what he wrote. This guy is making it twice as easy, he is telling us exactly what they want to do to Israel should they get the chance and people don't want to believe that either. I wonder what the next guy will do...

So is it your view that we should ignore the comment from their leaders about the destruction of Israel?

No in my view that comment was taken out of context. Do you even know which people you are talking about?

Most of the bluster on Israel has come from Ahmadinejad who has not power to wipe anybody what-so-ever off of any map.

In 2005 Khamenei responded to President Ahmadinejad's alleged remark that Israel should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."

There are well documented comments made about wanting to destroy Israel

Have you read anything at all about these "well documented comments?

This guy is making it twice as easy.

What guy? What the hell are you talking about? And why do you cherry pick quotes from Ahmadinejad who has no real power, and ignore statements from Khamenei, who unequivocally says Iran will never attack any country, and that nuclear weapons are contrary to his religion.

Why not look at Irans history? A victim of multiple bloody invasions, including chemical/bio attacks, backed by some of the same western powers that want to attack them AGAIN. They been one of the best behaved nation states in the middle east over the last 30 years, and theres no sign of that changing.

The WEST is the one killing hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east, sacking countries based on bogus intelligence, propping up brutal dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, and various diferent autocracies to serve our own interest. The west is also the ones sitting on a massive nuclear arsenal and spending hundreds of billions of dollars trying to make even more deadly weapons to export around the world.

Edited September 9, 2012 by dre

[Bonam]

Iran has supported Assad in Syria in his tyranny over his own people, has supported Hamas and Hezbollah in their attacks against Israel, has conducted attacks on Western and Israeli embassies within Iran and abroad, has sentenced several Canadians within its borders to death, has refused to dismantle its nuclear program, has had its president make disturbing remarks about Israel, has regressed in the rights and freedoms given to its own people, and has suppressed popular uprisings against its current regime. Now yes, dre is right, it has not initiated direct military action against other nearby nations. It prefers to play it covertly, behind the scenes. If that makes it "well-behaved" for the middle-east, that says more about the middle-east than Iran.

[dre]

Iran has supported Assad in Syria in his tyranny over his own people, has supported Hamas and Hezbollah in their attacks against Israel, has conducted attacks on Western and Israeli embassies within Iran and abroad, has sentenced several Canadians within its borders to death, has refused to dismantle its nuclear program, has had its president make disturbing remarks about Israel, has regressed in the rights and freedoms given to its own people, and has suppressed popular uprisings against its current regime. Now yes, dre is right, it has not initiated direct military action against other nearby nations. It prefers to play it covertly, behind the scenes. If that makes it "well-behaved" for the middle-east, that says more about the middle-east than Iran.

Iran has supported Assad in Syria

So do almost half of Syrians, including all of the Christians, and the Shia (which explains the alliance with Iran). And the west has partied with way worse guys than Assad and still does today.

has refused to dismantle its nuclear program

Why on earth would it do that? A nuclear program including enrichment is Irans inaliable right as a signatory of the NPT.

had its president make disturbing remarks about Israel

The president is a blustering loudmouth. Nobody has to make him do anything, and when he made the statement referred to by CPL Khamenei immediately rebuked it.

It prefers to play it covertly, behind the scenes

Like you would expect a middle tier regional power to do pretty much. Iran mostly supports the regions Shia, and groups like Hezbollah that officially represent Lebanons shia in the Lebanese government.

If that makes it "well-behaved" for the middle-east, that says more about the middle-east than Iran

I dunno. The west isnt much better behaved than the middle east these days. Theres no lack of belligerence around the world unfortunately.

[Bonam]

I notice you left out a few things from my list in your rebuttal, some of the more relevant ones in fact. In any case, Iran stands in opposition to Western interests, supports groups that undermine our security, and has posed a danger to Canadians and others. How are our interests served by maintaining diplomatic ties with Iran?

[dre]

I notice you left out a few things from my list in your rebuttal, some of the more relevant ones in fact. In any case, Iran stands in opposition to Western interests, supports groups that undermine our security, and has posed a danger to Canadians and others. How are our interests served by maintaining diplomatic ties with Iran?

Well thats fine because you left out ALL of mine in that post

The Iranian Embassy here provided services to more than 150 000 Iranians living in Canada, and kept lines of communication open. The fact that theres a possibility of another Iraq style blood-letting over bogus WMD claims makes it diplomatic channels open than ever.

A de-escalalation of rhetoric by both sides could save hundreds of thousands of lives, and this was the opposite. But to turn that question around, what possible good can booting out Iranian diplomats do for anyone?

But to be honest... this in and of itself is not something that worries me too much. What I DO worry about is this another step down the road towards a whole bunch of Iranians and quite possibly a bunch of Canadians dying for no good reason at all.

Edited September 9, 2012 by dre