"the english are waking up!"

jacee · September 25, 2012

I'm not so sure about Ontario being at break even, Smallc. Remember, I live here. From my perspective the province is hurting very badly economically.

Perhaps my perception is coloured by living in Hamilton, which has been particularly hard hit by steel plant closings and that of all the associated industries with that.

There's also Niagara area and Windsor that are sinking fast.

...

Plus, we are now officially a have-not province. Not surprising, with the high unemployment. Hell, there's stiff competition between older factory workers for jobs as greeters at WalMart! And I couldn't begin to count the number of ex-factory guys I meet at box stores like Home Depot and Lowes. Before you say that at least they've found a job remember that they are now making perhaps a third of their former income.

The only area I hear positive things from is Northern Ontario, from the mines and such.

So I dunno, Smallc. It's hard to get a clear official picture. It's not as if policians want bad news to be easily heard. Still, from those areas I CAN get some info it's not looking very healthy in Ontario today.

If Quebec were to separate and joining America was an option, I think a strong majority of Ontario would go for it!

You can't keep your house and feed your kids with patriotism.

Little you know Bill, and research even less: Don't even read the paper, listen to the news!

Hamilton is in the midst of a change in focus from manufacturing to diversification ... and winning!

--report-suggests-hamilton-area-will-lead-province-in-growth-this-year

The east will be fine on its own.

Alberta can keep its oil revenues and its chronic complaining ... and exercise its sovereignty. Might need to negotiate/pay its way to oil markets itself instead, instead of assuming divine/federal intervention (What was their business plan, anyway? What banks financed operations with no access to markets?) ... but that's just business as an independent nation.

Ontario join the US? :lol:

You smokin crank? :rolleyes:

Edited September 25, 2012 by jacee

bleeding heart · September 25, 2012

Dieppe was going to require signs to be in both English and French, equal size, at one point. What happened there?

I think it's still under discussion. But my impression (and it's nothing more than that) is that few people actually give a damn.

jacee · September 25, 2012

Is there another province in this country with a law that forces people to speak a certain language or businesses to have their signs in the same?

Big friggin deal. Nunavut has 3 official languages.

http://www.gov.nu.ca/

Some European countries have more.

40 years? Isn't it time to get over the ethnic prejudice?

So ridiculous. No one who lives in Quebec fusses about that, done deal.

Only ones who fuss are just making trouble, inciting ethnic animosity ... for what purpose, I don't know ... ?

The anglo- and allophones living in Quebec can speak for themselves, as can First Nations - land issues not language.

I suggest stay out of their business.

Attempting to incite regional and ethnic hostilities is a fool's game.

Edited September 25, 2012 by jacee

Wild Bill · September 25, 2012

Little you know Bill, and research even less: Don't even read the paper, listen to the news!

Hamilton is in the midst of a change in focus from manufacturing to diversification ... and winning!

--report-suggests-hamilton-area-will-lead-province-in-growth-this-year

Depends on your yardstick, jacee. I had read the article you cited. It doesn't tell the entire story.

Hamilton is starting from very far back. We get some new business that provides 400 new jobs. This gets touted as "happy days are here again!". What no one mentions is that the steel companies alone went from nearly 20,000 workers to less than 900.

The losses are far, far greater than the number of new positions. What's more, the new positions pay far less and tend to hire younger workers fresh into the job market.

So yes, Hamilton might be the leader in growth. That doesn't mean all those middle aged factory workers are working again, at anywhere near the same wages as before.

I'm not saying that what growth is happening is not positive. Just that it's not exactly how it is portrayed in the media. There is a great deal of cheerleading going on.

It's nobody's fault, really. Most of the job losses in Hamilton are the result of more modern manufacturing techniques. You can produce more steel today with nearly 1/20th the number of workers. It's just that the rate of change has been too rapid for many to adjust.

Yes, new types of jobs have been created but as I said, they usually are not jobs for those who lost what they had - just jobs for the next generation. Even then, unemployment for those fresh out of school is still far too high.

Again jaycee, it's all in how you measure it.

g_bambino · September 25, 2012

Big friggin deal. Nunavut has 3 official languages.

Indeed, so small a friggin' deal that official languages never came up. I mentioned laws that force people to speak a language, such as those proposed by the PQ in their election platform.

g_bambino · September 25, 2012

I live in the officially bilingual province; and government bilingual signs aside (which makes perfect sense here, anyway)...no, certainly not.

Yes, there's no issue with there being a mandate for government services to be provided to the community in certain languages, or with infrastructure having signage in one or more languages (which is, again, a service to the community). But, using the power of the law to force private businesses to operate in a specific language is another matter altogether.

Benz · September 27, 2012

So well that the highway signs used to be bilingual in such areas as Montreal and are now French-only. Self-defeating as well as discriminatory and stupid. In most of the rest of Canada, the French pockets, such as Boniface in Winnipeg, I hear have either signs in both languages or in French.

What about the places where they can't even send their children in french schools? What about all the complaints to the Commisionner of Official Languages?

Why do you always look at one side of the street before you cross it?

I understand they don't want to deal with an independent Quebec.

Then you understand nothing of what they are concerned about.

Quebec decided not to participate in the Charter negotiations. You snooze you lose.

This is not how it happened at all. Learn your history.

Again the EU is a fiasco. No one wants to admit that and risk an economic depression.

You may pray more harder than that to make your wish comes true.

A bit of schizophrenic reasoning, eh?

Yep!

Benz · September 27, 2012

Is there another province in this country with a law that forces people to speak a certain language or businesses to have their signs in the same?

Is there a province where a Tamil can get road signs, public schools and even have the right to make surrounding people around in its workplace to speak its language?

No! It's english.

The reason of Québec's language laws, I have explained them and yet, you still fail totally to argue about it.

September 27, 2012

Your talking like i came up with these ideas, no sir, these were ideas that were brought forth during the last ref have you read creitien book read the paras on the ref and tell me it all lunacy, these were questions and actions our government took on our behalf, not army guy making shit up....Why would they close it's borders , because Quebec government at the time suspected Canada would use military force to prevent, or counter Quebec separation....business as usual we hope it is , but thats not what our liberal buddies at the time had planned.

Tis true….leading up to the referendum, all the Hornets were flown out of Bagotville……And prior to another split, I’d wonder if the Vandoos would be conducting and exercise, with their equipment, in Gagetown…..

g_bambino · September 27, 2012

Is there a province where a Tamil can get road signs, public schools and even have the right to make surrounding people around in its workplace to speak its language?

See, you can't differentiate between government services (signs, schools) and private business (workplaces); you ask about legislated language use in both areas as though they were exactly the same.

When it comes to government services, yes, the official (or dominant, if there is no actual official) language or lanugages are mandated to be used. Nothing wrong with that. And, even still, provinces do, in fact, provide services in languages other than the official one or ones, should the population warrant it; translated versions of documents are available in many languages, as are recordings or call centre staff for information lines, there are translators for courts and in public schools to assist immigrant students who don't speak the official or dominant language. And, though they're not a provincial matter, street signs in the Chinatowns, Greektown, and other ethnic enclaves of Toronto, at least, are in both English and whatever tongue the neighbourhood ethnicity speaks. When it comes to business and the home - private spaces - however, anyone can speak whatever they want.

You, on the other hand, think the PQ's stated goal of the Crown legislating what language people throughout the province must speak - not just have on signage, but what they must speak - in their own place of business is a-okay. Only to a bunch of paranoid and un-confident xenophobes would the protection of their language trump as basic a right as freedom of expression.

Benz · September 29, 2012

When it comes to business and the home - private spaces - however, anyone can speak whatever they want.

It's the very same here. People speak whatever they want at home. In business, a greek owner of a restaurant can speak greek to a greek client. He is just not allowed to speak greek to me, nor allowed to not serve me in my language because it's an official language.

See, there is no difference between english Canada and Québec on that. No one is allowed to do discrimination toward the french in Québec. If the people in english Canada are allowed to do discrimination toward you and you feel fine with it, good for you.

You, on the other hand, think the PQ's stated goal of the Crown legislating what language people throughout the province must speak - not just have on signage, but what they must speak - in their own place of business is a-okay. Only to a bunch of paranoid and un-confident xenophobes would the protection of their language trump as basic a right as freedom of expression.

Not serving me in my language is NOT a freedom of expression. It's an attempt against the home world that accepted you to join in. You can run a business in whatever language you want, as long as your clients can be served in french and the workers working with you can work in french. You are not banned to use english or anything else. You are just forced to use french when your clients or employees want to use it.

Your narrowed vision refrains you from seeing the obvious.

jbg · September 30, 2012

Not serving me in my language is NOT a freedom of expression. It's an attempt against the home world that accepted you to join in. You can run a business in whatever language you want, as long as your clients can be served in french and the workers working with you can work in french. You are not banned to use english or anything else. You are just forced to use french when your clients or employees want to use it.

One time I went to a restaurant in Port Chester, about 5 kms from my house. The restaurant serves Peruvian and Argentinian food. After I got exasperated by being unable to make my order understood, I switched to Spanish and was promptly served. My son said "Daddy, is this one of your bad jokes?" I explained to him that if I wanted to be served and not walk out empty-handed I needed to use Spanish.

Was that discrimination? I didn't feel discriminated against. To me, that was a hard-working immigrant trying to have a piece of the American dream. I am sure that the business would be more successful if the employees could speak English. Unless the owner seeks a government subsidy, that is his privilege to be less than fully successful.

Benz · September 30, 2012

One time I went to a restaurant in Port Chester, about 5 kms from my house. The restaurant serves Peruvian and Argentinian food. After I got exasperated by being unable to make my order understood, I switched to Spanish and was promptly served. My son said "Daddy, is this one of your bad jokes?" I explained to him that if I wanted to be served and not walk out empty-handed I needed to use Spanish.

Was that discrimination? I didn't feel discriminated against. To me, that was a hard-working immigrant trying to have a piece of the American dream. I am sure that the business would be more successful if the employees could speak English. Unless the owner seeks a government subsidy, that is his privilege to be less than fully successful.

So what?

We target only thoe who do not want to serve in french on purpose. Some people figure that learning english is enough and it's up to us to adapt. When I see someone not able to serve me in french, the first thing I do is to evalutate if that person is just trying to do its best or not. It will have an impact on my behavior. Usually I will speak slowly and articulate with gestures. so the person will have the opportunity to learn.

I also have my anecdote. I went to a place selling computers and parts. I wanted to buy something, I don't remember what was it. The woman holding the store was alone and could only speak english. So I chatted with her and ask her where she is coming from. She is Russian and came here to follow her husband. So what I did is, I spoke half english, half french. I was teaching her the words like I would to a friend. She did not felt insulted at all and the fact that I was also able to put few words in Russian rather won her interest.

You often read columnists of few anglos here whinning about the persecution of english people in Quebec, but it is far from the reality. Our society is open and friendly, even toward those who do not speak french yet. Our rules are meant to target only those who are stubborn and insist to ignore french. If they wouldn't exist, we wouldn't have those rules.

jacee · September 30, 2012

So what?

We target only thoe who do not want to serve in french on purpose.

...

You often read columnists of few anglos here whinning about the persecution of english people in Quebec, but it is far from the reality. Our society is open and friendly, even toward those who do not speak french yet. Our rules are meant to target only those who are stubborn and insist to ignore french. If they wouldn't exist, we wouldn't have those rules.

I think you've described well the people g_bambino is championing - ones who refuse to do business in French on some boneheaded 'principle'. Pretty stupid business plan. :lol:

And I think you're also right that anglo columnists in TROC like to instigate controversy that anglos in Quebec don't thank them for.

Wish they'd just shut up and mind their own business ... oh wait ... stirring up controversy is the business

of columnists. <sigh>

I think TROC is reluctant to open a discussion with Quebec because the instigators would cause trouble and Quebeckers would feel even more wounded.

I despise those instigator trolls who have no real stake in the issue, but simply enjoy causing damage and pain.

Edited September 30, 2012 by jacee

Rocky Road · September 30, 2012

I think you've described well the people g_bambino is championing - ones who refuse to do business in French on some boneheaded 'principle'. Pretty stupid business plan.

And I think you're also right that anglo columnists in TROC like to instigate controversy that anglos in Quebec don't thank them for.

Wish they'd just shut up and mind their own business ... oh wait ... stirring up controversy is the business

of columnists. <sigh>

I think TROC is reluctant to open a discussion with Quebec because the instigators would cause trouble and Quebeckers would feel even more wounded.

I despise those instigator trolls who have no real stake in the issue, but simply enjoy causing damage and pain.

Interesting article, but pessimistic, anglo point of view.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/28/barbara-kay-in-marois-montreal-the-sound-of-english-becomes-an-offence/#

Rocky Road · September 30, 2012

Well,

here is the plan

http://pq.org/souverainete/plan

I personally like Jean Marc Fournier, he seems just what is needed to rekindle Federalist sentiment au Quebec.

Viva Canada and Viva Quebec!

jbg · September 30, 2012

Well,

here is the plan

http://pq.org/souverainete/plan

I personally like Jean Marc Fournier, he seems just what is needed to rekindle Federalist sentiment au Quebec.

Viva Canada and Viva Quebec!

Is that translated into either English or Canadian anywhere?

jbg · October 1, 2012

Interesting article, but pessimistic, anglo point of view.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/28/barbara-kay-in-marois-montreal-the-sound-of-english-becomes-an-offence/#

Great article, except she misspells "offense" in the headline. Where are her proofreaders?

Benz · October 1, 2012

I think you've described well the people g_bambino is championing - ones who refuse to do business in French on some boneheaded 'principle'. Pretty stupid business plan.

When that business has a very powerful weigh, it's another story. It already happened in the past that some major business companies could afford to care less about the french because no competitors could match their prices. Now with our language rules, it doesn't happen anymore. Or if it does, the rules are their to protect our rights.

And I think you're also right that anglo columnists in TROC like to instigate controversy that anglos in Quebec don't thank them for.
Wish they'd just shut up and mind their own business ... oh wait ... stirring up controversy is the business

of columnists. <sigh>

The problem is not that they are saying crapt. The problem is so many people swallow their crapt.

I think TROC is reluctant to open a discussion with Quebec because the instigators would cause trouble and Quebeckers would feel even more wounded.

Allow me to invite you to rethink about it. What if it is the other way around. What if the status quo is a cancer and you should focus on it before it gets too late? In your part of the country, you don't feel the urgence. Here, I can tell you that even if the sovereignty is not high in the current polls, it doesn't mean the people like the situation as is. On the contrary. Considering that TROC just don't care that Meech didn't pass, that Québec is isolated since 1981, that no solutions of whatsoever are offered... not as many people in Québec are defending the federalism as in 1995. Their hands are empty. No solution on the radar.

For instence, Legault, leader of the CAQ which got 27% in the last election, said that although he doesn't which a referendum in the next 10 years, if one referendum occurs, he won't fight along the federalists and won't defend the federalism. So it means only 31% of the people voted for a party that would defend the federalism no matter what.

If you wait until the next referendum, it will be too late.

I despise those instigator trolls who have no real stake in the issue, but simply enjoy causing damage and pain.

They nourish hatred and nothing good can come out of this.

Rocky Road · October 1, 2012

When that business has a very powerful weigh, it's another story. It already happened in the past that some major business companies could afford to care less about the french because no competitors could match their prices. Now with our language rules, it doesn't happen anymore. Or if it does, the rules are their to protect our rights.

The problem is not that they are saying crapt. The problem is so many people swallow their crapt.

Allow me to invite you to rethink about it. What if it is the other way around. What if the status quo is a cancer and you should focus on it before it gets too late? In your part of the country, you don't feel the urgence. Here, I can tell you that even if the sovereignty is not high in the current polls, it doesn't mean the people like the situation as is. On the contrary. Considering that TROC just don't care that Meech didn't pass, that Québec is isolated since 1981, that no solutions of whatsoever are offered... not as many people in Québec are defending the federalism as in 1995. Their hands are empty. No solution on the radar.

For instence, Legault, leader of the CAQ which got 27% in the last election, said that although he doesn't which a referendum in the next 10 years, if one referendum occurs, he won't fight along the federalists and won't defend the federalism. So it means only 31% of the people voted for a party that would defend the federalism no matter what.

If you wait until the next referendum, it will be too late.

They nourish hatred and nothing good can come out of this.

http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/newspapers/LFC/

Franco Albertain

Benz · October 1, 2012

Interesting article, but pessimistic, anglo point of view.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/28/barbara-kay-in-marois-montreal-the-sound-of-english-becomes-an-offence/#

To win this month’s election, PQ chief Pauline Marois knew she had only one option: to rally her anglophobic base. Now it was not enough that French was the official language in education and business and services; anglos were criticized because it was not the “language of use” in their private lives. English was now an ugly thing in itself. The tongue was an insult to the ears of francophones.

f--- off. There is not even a starter that would look like, not even from a drunk eye, to something like that. This is pure bullshit.

Today I am astonished and ashamed to say that here in Canada’s founding city, Montreal, speaking English can put you at risk.

Anglos are shooting at french people and that ass hole are saying it's the english that are living at risk. How can you guys swallow such crap! Esxplain... what is going on in your mind to figure that what she is saying can leave the fictional world and become true?

But that is not going to be enough to drain the toxins this campaign has spewed into the air we breathe.

Look at the drama.

Because I actually can’t think of any time before Marois’ election campaign, as in these two incidents, where private citizen A allegedly has criminally assaulted citizen B for speaking English to citizen C.

Replace english with french and put it in a english canada context. It happened so many times. She is just trying to flame up the fear and hatred.

The scenario suggests that English is not only regarded as a second-tier language, but that it is some kind of virus that can spread through the air from speaker to bystanders.

Give her few more lines and we are Nazi.

How conveniant that she said nothing regarding the CJAD radio that interviewed Bain like if nothing happened.

If you think Québec is like she describs... it only makes my point. Why don't you just kick Québec out of Canada and help the remaining anglos to relocate in Canada? If we are that dangerous. Get rid of us and save the linguistic virgins.

Of course, we will never know what kind of law she is talking about, that would forbid people speaking english in their own home. It doesn't matter, it's like UFOs. You want to beleive.

Are you brain dead? Zombies? What is it that doesn't compute in your mind? How can you even considere this as a serious article, it beats me.

Rocky Road · October 1, 2012

Hmmm.

I do think its crazy that Bain got on the radio.

g_bambino · October 1, 2012

In business, a greek owner of a restaurant can speak greek to a greek client. He is just not allowed to speak greek to me, nor allowed to not serve me in my language because it's an official language.

Well, he is allowed to speak to you in whatever language he wants because it was only an election proposal by the PQ that a law be passed dictating what languge would be spoken in private businesses. Otherwise, what's your point? You're only restating the proposal, not defending it's unconstitutional restrictions on freedom of expression.

Not serving me in my language is NOT a freedom of expression. It's an attempt against the home world that accepted you to join in.

Maybe this is why you can't defend the proposed law. You don't know what freedom of expression is.

g_bambino · October 1, 2012

I think you've described well the people g_bambino is championing

I've never defended people. I've only defended ancient principles that apply to all people in a liberal democracy.

Benz · October 1, 2012

... not defending it's unconstitutional restrictions on freedom of expression.

The english speaking people decided that it is unconstitutional. Here lies the whole problem. We did not fix those rules together.

Maybe this is why you can't defend the proposed law. You don't know what freedom of expression is.

It has nothing to do with freedom of expression. Not single bit. Not providing services in the language of the local (province) people, is not a right. It's not even a expression. It's an insult.

If you operate a small business in Saguenay and serve only in english, you are stupid and won't survive long. If you operate a big business in Montreal and have no french competitors and you don't serve in french, then you put the french people in a situation where they must adapt and use english. It's because of those ***** that we have such rules.

Someday bambino.... someday you'll develop enough intellectual skills to get a clue about it. Keep on the hard work.