Are all quebecors and francophone racist?

[TheNewTeddy]

As a francophone from Quebec, I would like to point out that threads like this are really not helping and are vindicating much of the PQ's thesis.

For starters, many here imply that Pauline Marois believes in the existence of a Québécois "race", that is absurd. Like most nationalists in the province, she certainly believes in the existence of a separate people, who's language and culture entitles them to a distinct nationhood, but I have yet to find a single occurrence of her talking about the francophones of Quebec as a distinct "race"; heck, the term "race" is completely outdated in the current political and scientific lexicon.

Also, people need to put the PQ's victory into context. For starters, the nationalistic and (sometimes, yes) borderline xenophobic political narrative that often permeates the PQ's message was either absent, or highly criticized when it surfaced. The PQ won a plurality because it was up against the most unpopular and allegedly corrupted government in living memory, not to mention that this same government had been in power for nearly a decade, further motivating much of the electorate to strategically vote for the PQ as a way to get the PLQ out of power. While the fear of a referendum was often brought up by the PQ opponent as an argument against it, it was not really that big a part of the PQ's political message during the campaign, a truth further demonstrated by the fact that support for Quebec independence is actually quite low; lower than the percentage of people who voted for the PQ or other nationalistic political forces during the election.

Now, does the PQ have some ethnocentric tendencies?

Yes

Did its support for the creation of a separate citizenship open possibilities for a mean to create a gap between certain citizens and their rights based on their language?

Tragically, yes, it did.

But the fact of the matter is that the idea was criticized by pretty much all major medias and analysts in Quebec; the PQ had to backtrack on several aspects of the law and before long, they even stopped talking about it, noting that this transparent attempt to charm the more nationalistic electorate while opening a possible conflict with Ottawa that could be exploited later had backfired and convinced several of its followers to vote for other nationalistic parties who were not dabbling in such xenophobic policies, such as Québec Solidaire, Option Nationale and even the Coalition pour l'Avenir du Québec.

The thing is, the PQ should have crushed the Liberals. The party in power had been ripped apart by its poor leadership during the student loans crisis and was being humiliated by a daily showcase of its own mire during the airing of a a provincial commission charged to examine the charges of corruptions in the construction industry. But the PQ lead a very poor campaign; it was seen as clumsy, its leaders performed quite poorly during the debates and it failed to do anything except just being the most likely party to finally replace a government who's days were clearly behind it.

Now, the attempted murder on Marois is a tragedy, a horror which is guaranteed to open a lot of old wounds. What's worst is that it was followed by a wave of approval on the social networks; hate mongering of the worst kind and open calls to murder that are being peddled gleefully in a way that is incredibly destructive. It vindicates the worst of anti-Canadian sentiments found in Quebec, which further feeds the anti-Quebec narrative that can be found in the other provinces. It is a mess, and mess which will take years to be cleaned up.

In the end, the election is very poorly analyzed by the Canadian media, who seems to forget that Quebec is a complex society. After all, nationalism is but one of the many facets of the province's political landscape and it must not be overestimated. After all, the same population which allowed the PQ to win a minority gave its trust to the New Democratic Party, a federalist party.

What do those two events events have in common? Well, both parties are seen as occupying a portion of the left of the political spectrum. As such, a vote for the PQ might not be about separatism or about linguistic tensions, but the fact that the population of Quebec tend to favor the left. As such, stating that the PQ's Pyrrhic victory is a demonstration of the populations adherence to its more nationalistic and sometimes xenophobic values might be a mistake. There were a lot more issues at had in Tuesday's election.

I might not agree with this post above, but I like that we have a new poster who makes quality arguments in debate, so kudos for that!

[TheNewTeddy]

As a francophone from Quebec, I would like to point out that threads like this are really not helping and are vindicating much of the PQ's thesis.

For starters, many here imply that Pauline Marois believes in the existence of a Québécois "race", that is absurd. Like most nationalists in the province, she certainly believes in the existence of a separate people, who's language and culture entitles them to a distinct nationhood, but I have yet to find a single occurrence of her talking about the francophones of Quebec as a distinct "race"; heck, the term "race" is completely outdated in the current political and scientific lexicon.

In this case, "distinct nationhood" has replaced "race", but means the exact same thing.

Also, people need to put the PQ's victory into context. For starters, the nationalistic and (sometimes, yes) borderline xenophobic political narrative that often permeates the PQ's message was either absent, or highly criticized when it surfaced. The PQ won a plurality because it was up against the most unpopular and allegedly corrupted government in living memory, not to mention that this same government had been in power for nearly a decade, further motivating much of the electorate to strategically vote for the PQ as a way to get the PLQ out of power. While the fear of a referendum was often brought up by the PQ opponent as an argument against it, it was not really that big a part of the PQ's political message during the campaign, a truth further demonstrated by the fact that support for Quebec independence is actually quite low; lower than the percentage of people who voted for the PQ or other nationalistic political forces during the election.

Now, does the PQ have some ethnocentric tendencies?

Yes

Did its support for the creation of a separate citizenship open possibilities for a mean to create a gap between certain citizens and their rights based on their language?

Tragically, yes, it did.

But the fact of the matter is that the idea was criticized by pretty much all major medias and analysts in Quebec; the PQ had to backtrack on several aspects of the law and before long, they even stopped talking about it, noting that this transparent attempt to charm the more nationalistic electorate while opening a possible conflict with Ottawa that could be exploited later had backfired and convinced several of its followers to vote for other nationalistic parties who were not dabbling in such xenophobic policies, such as Québec Solidaire, Option Nationale and even the Coalition pour l'Avenir du Québec.

It is these reasons why I like ON and QS.

The thing is, the PQ should have crushed the Liberals. The party in power had been ripped apart by its poor leadership during the student loans crisis and was being humiliated by a daily showcase of its own mire during the airing of a a provincial commission charged to examine the charges of corruptions in the construction industry. But the PQ lead a very poor campaign; it was seen as clumsy, its leaders performed quite poorly during the debates and it failed to do anything except just being the most likely party to finally replace a government who's days were clearly behind it.

Now, the attempted murder on Marois is a tragedy, a horror which is guaranteed to open a lot of old wounds. What's worst is that it was followed by a wave of approval on the social networks;

I am thankful I saw none of this, and, proud that I stood against it.

hate mongering of the worst kind and open calls to murder that are being peddled gleefully in a way that is incredibly destructive. It vindicates the worst of anti-Canadian sentiments found in Quebec, which further feeds the anti-Quebec narrative that can be found in the other provinces. It is a mess, and mess which will take years to be cleaned up.

In the end, the election is very poorly analyzed by the Canadian media, who seems to forget that Quebec is a complex society. After all, nationalism is but one of the many facets of the province's political landscape and it must not be overestimated. After all, the same population which allowed the PQ to win a minority gave its trust to the New Democratic Party, a federalist party.

What do those two events events have in common? Well, both parties are seen as occupying a portion of the left of the political spectrum. As such, a vote for the PQ might not be about separatism or about linguistic tensions, but the fact that the population of Quebec tend to favor the left. As such, stating that the PQ's Pyrrhic victory is a demonstration of the populations adherence to its more nationalistic and sometimes xenophobic values might be a mistake. There were a lot more issues at had in Tuesday's election.

What I want is an acceptance that many PQ policies are seen as racist by Anglophones, and, more importantly, that Anglophones have a good reason to see it that way. So far, the reaction from the French media is that Anglophones who think the PQ and their policies are racist are the cause of the shooting because they are so wrong and should shut up and talk french.

[Antiochus]

In this case, "distinct nationhood" has replaced "race", but means the exact same thing.

Not at all. The concept of race today is defined by blood, or by ethnicity.

Nationhood as it is understood by cultural standards is based on language, culture and customs. Its something that can be joined, that you do not have to be born into to be a part of; which explains how people like PQ, QS or BLOC MPs and candidates being seen as nationalists Quebecois, while technically being immigrants or of immigrant or anglophone descent, such as Maka Kotto, Amir Khadir, Maria Mourani, Djemila Benhabib, Scott Mckay, Andrés Fontecilla, Will Prosper and the list goes on...

It is these reasons why I like ON and QS.

As I do.

I am thankful I saw none of this, and, proud that I stood against it.

I think a one of our journalist said it best when he said that the shooting left us with one death, but 8 million wounded...

What I want is an acceptance that many PQ policies are seen as racist by Anglophones, and, more importantly, that Anglophones have a good reason to see it that way. So far, the reaction from the French media is that Anglophones who think the PQ and their policies are racist are the cause of the shooting because they are so wrong and should shut up and talk french.

Well, off the bat I would have to say that I can't help but think that your vision of the "francophone media" is very skewed, as the reaction to the shooting and the analysis of its causes and ramifications varied drastically from one source to another, not to mention that most of our major media are widely seen as being federalist, or at least as supportive of federalist political parties, such as the medias under Quebecor Media (which includes the most read newspaper, the journal de Montreal, and the most watched News Stations, TVA) and Power Corporation (which includes the second most read newspaper, La Presse).

On the other hand, if some medias were to be highly critical of the election coverage of the election by English media, I would not entirely disagree with it. While it would be absurd to lay the blame at the feet of such media organization, one can't help but to point out that many of those medias used fear-mongering as an electoral tactic. Calling the PQ voters Yahoos, insulting the PQ leader outright, claiming that any voters who support the PQ supports xenophobia (even though its reducing the whole campaign to a caricature) among others...

Now, does this mean one can blame those medias for the shooting?

Not really. But one could say that they fail at objectively informing their readers and create and environment where such horrible acts can more easily take root. To be fair, several francophone media are also outright opposed to the PQ, as said earlier, some of them can be pretty radical in their narrative (such as the famed trash radios of Quebec city), and they could also be considered as being more damaging to the public discourse than truly informative on the topic.

As for considering the PQ as racist and xenophobic, I never said that it was faultless. I agree that the party adhered to bad policies that are, in essence, rooted in a form of nationalism that is synonymous with xenophobia. But I also said that such policies do not reach a consensus within the party itself, let alone the broader Quebec society (as this thread imply, in a very offensive way).

The PQ always played in a dangerous territory, as the line between nationalism and racism is a fine one. I understand why it can be seen with suspicion, even animosity by anglophones and I even agree with some of the criticism that many aim its way, but I do have an issue with parts of the english media and with a huge part of the anglophone social media which often gains a platform on regular media website, for being very unfair in their analysis of Quebec's policy and, sometimes, just as racist and xenophobic as those they claim to condemn. It was especially scary in the facebook and twitter following of those media, such as when some people actually cheered and called for the murder of Pauline Marois. I know the same thing can be found anywhere, but do understand that just as the PQ's policy can sometime vindicate animosity, such narrative also vindicates the PQ, especially when it is encouraged as I have seen it on medias such as Sun News Network.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Antiochus

[jacee]

Seems to me that Quebeckers have their heads on pretty straight on this issue...

MONTREAL - Three-quarters of Quebecers say premier-elect Pauline Marois should meet with English-speaking leaders as soon as possible to calm a rise in language tensions in the wake of the provincial election,according to a poll by Léger Marketing.

Francophones and allophones are almost as vehement in calling for a speedy meeting with the anglophone community (73 per cent) as anglophones (79 per cent),indicates the post-election poll for The Gazette,Le Devoir,the Quebec Community Groups Network and the Association for Canadian Studies.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/life/story.html?id=7209395

If Quebeckers understand their own issues and seek to address them in their own way, I think the rest of us should butt out.

I don't think Anglo phone Quebeckers would see any value in, for example, New Teddy's insistence on defining the PQ as racist.

I certainly don't see it as valid or useful in anyway.

Xenophobia is a nasty habit no matter who's doing it.

[jacee]

Not without the resignation of Charest, and not without the other parties in the National Assembly allowing them to do so. It isn't a nitpick. To say that the PQ 'won' is to discount the many other options that exist within a minority parliament.

Yes it is nit picking, and not constructive.

[TheNewTeddy]

Not at all. The concept of race today is defined by blood, or by ethnicity.

Nationhood as it is understood by cultural standards is based on language, culture and customs. Its something that can be joined, that you do not have to be born into to be a part of; which explains how people like PQ, QS or BLOC MPs and candidates being seen as nationalists Quebecois, while technically being immigrants or of immigrant or anglophone descent, such as Maka Kotto, Amir Khadir, Maria Mourani, Djemila Benhabib, Scott Mckay, Andrés Fontecilla, Will Prosper and the list goes on...

As I do.

I think a one of our journalist said it best when he said that the shooting left us with one death, but 8 million wounded...

Well, off the bat I would have to say that I can't help but think that your vision of the "francophone media" is very skewed, as the reaction to the shooting and the analysis of its causes and ramifications varied drastically from one source to another, not to mention that most of our major media are widely seen as being federalist, or at least as supportive of federalist political parties, such as the medias under Quebecor Media (which includes the most read newspaper, the journal de Montreal, and the most watched News Stations, TVA) and Power Corporation (which includes the second most read newspaper, La Presse).

On the other hand, if some medias were to be highly critical of the election coverage of the election by English media, I would not entirely disagree with it. While it would be absurd to lay the blame at the feet of such media organization, one can't help but to point out that many of those medias used fear-mongering as an electoral tactic. Calling the PQ voters Yahoos, insulting the PQ leader outright, claiming that any voters who support the PQ supports xenophobia (even though its reducing the whole campaign to a caricature) among others...

Now, does this mean one can blame those medias for the shooting?

Not really. But one could say that they fail at objectively informing their readers and create and environment where such horrible acts can more easily take root. To be fair, several francophone media are also outright opposed to the PQ, as said earlier, some of them can be pretty radical in their narrative (such as the famed trash radios of Quebec city), and they could also be considered as being more damaging to the public discourse than truly informative on the topic.

As for considering the PQ as racist and xenophobic, I never said that it was faultless. I agree that the party adhered to bad policies that are, in essence, rooted in a form of nationalism that is synonymous with xenophobia. But I also said that such policies do not reach a consensus within the party itself, let alone the broader Quebec society (as this thread imply, in a very offensive way).

The PQ always played in a dangerous territory, as the line between nationalism and racism is a fine one. I understand why it can be seen with suspicion, even animosity by anglophones and I even agree with some of the criticism that many aim its way, but I do have an issue with parts of the english media and with a huge part of the anglophone social media which often gains a platform on regular media website, for being very unfair in their analysis of Quebec's policy and, sometimes, just as racist and xenophobic as those they claim to condemn. It was especially scary in the facebook and twitter following of those media, such as when some people actually cheered and called for the murder of Pauline Marois. I know the same thing can be found anywhere, but do understand that just as the PQ's policy can sometime vindicate animosity, such narrative also vindicates the PQ, especially when it is encouraged as I have seen it on medias such as Sun News Network.

I should admit the stories I've heard come from

https://twitter.com/MacphersonGaz

[bleeding heart]

In the end, the election is very poorly analyzed by the Canadian media, who seems to forget that Quebec is a complex society. After all, nationalism is but one of the many facets of the province's political landscape and it must not be overestimated. After all, the same population which allowed the PQ to win a minority gave its trust to the New Democratic Party, a federalist party.

What do those two events events have in common? Well, both parties are seen as occupying a portion of the left of the political spectrum. As such, a vote for the PQ might not be about separatism or about linguistic tensions, but the fact that the population of Quebec tend to favor the left. As such, stating that the PQ's Pyrrhic victory is a demonstration of the populations adherence to its more nationalistic and sometimes xenophobic values might be a mistake. There were a lot more issues at had in Tuesday's election.

I think you're right about this. There are pretty clear Left tendencies at play in all this. (A matter which, in the larger sphere, offends some poeple more than the spectre of separatism does...but most of these critics have little understanding of the contemporary Left...which is why they so often babble about "communism" and such things.)

And while separatism will no doubt long remain an issue, it is not currently at the forefront.

Edited September 9, 2012 by bleeding heart

[PIK]

Good post. Thanks Antiochus.

Really nice to have you here.

The thread title is obnoxious, as are a few linguistically challenged posters here for whom another language and culture is a horrifying threat.

I don't comprehend that fearful panic stricken spiteful personality that lashes out at anything different myself. There are a few here but they're not the majority, just loud and nasty.

I'm an AngloOntarian with Franco phone Quebecois family, happy to see Charest go and the focus in Quebec on attacking business/government corruption, defending freedom of expression and accessible education, a good example for the rest of us.

Actually you did not understand the question. And yes to the other poster, it was lowell who asked that question. Got it people ,it is a question ,not a opinion.

[bleeding heart]

. Got it people ,it is a question ,not a opinion.

Right. So if I "ask" whether same sex marriage is ruining Canada, for example, it's an innocent question, with no hint of agenda or opinion at its genesis.

[cybercoma]

Right. So if I "ask" whether same sex marriage is ruining Canada, for example, it's an innocent question, with no hint of agenda or opinion at its genesis.

Isn't opposite sex marriage ruining Canada? Just a question.

[Benz]

I agree that the party adhered to bad policies that are, in essence, rooted in a form of nationalism that is synonymous with xenophobia.

You gonna have to explain yourself. There is a difference between the mind of few individuals whinning in the background and the official policies.

the anglophone social media which often gains a platform on regular media website, for being very unfair in their analysis of Quebec's policy

You wear white gloves up to your nose. The PQ is xenophobic and those english medias are just unfair. It's like saying that your neighbor is a dangerous threat to the ecology with his lawnmower and in the same breath saying that a rapist is just an indelicate attentive person.

T'essais de flater le lion dans le sens du poil en bitchant les antilopes?