Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 6/22/2012 at 5:22 PM, dre said: If hes charged with a crime, then I supposed the establishment of guilt or innocence might come into play. But what we have is a guy that has been incarcerated for 2 years without charges about to be extradited without any chance to review any evidence against him. What ARE you talking about? Assange was arrested by British police after an arrest warrant was issued by Sweden. He was then released on bail and has been living in a mansion while his lawyers fought the extradition. He has had numerous hearings where he has lost. Having run out of appeals, he then skipped bail and ran into the Ecuadoran embassy. Quote If this is how you want the justice system to work then you have some serious issues. You mean that the justice system should not dare to arrest or extradite a well-known anti-American activist no matter what he does. Rape, after all, is acceptable if the rapist is anti-American. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 6/23/2012 at 12:05 AM, waldo said: further to your ongoing gong-show... as it turns out, Assange's legal council attempted to have Swedish authorities question Assange under 2 different scenarios; (1) where Swedish authorities would come to London and question Assange or (2) where Swedish authorities would question Assange by telephone, from Sweden. Neither of these scenarios were acceptable to Swedish authorities. And WHY do you think the Swedish police should consent to this? Because you think Assange is a specially protected individual who should get treated as such, and not like a normal man? For a normal man would certainly not get such treatment. A normal man would simply be sent back to Sweden to answer the charges there. But you rapist loving Lefties don't think Assange should be treated like a normal man. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/16/2012 at 6:21 PM, bleeding heart said: It's interesting that Equador is now protecting an individual's rights from the supposed defenders of individual rights..... Interesting that a bunch of lefties are defending an alleged rapist simply on the basis that he hates Americans just like they do. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/16/2012 at 7:47 PM, bleeding heart said: The "possible serial rapist" hasn't even been charged, Shady. He's wanted for questioning. Further, he fully agrees to the questioning...with the provision that he won't be extradited to the United States. Sweden refuses to make this agreement. I don't suppose it's occurred to all you conspiracy loonies that if the Americans wanted to extradite him they could extradite him from the UK, has it? Or for that matter, they could simply let him go back to Australia and extradite him from there. But no, that gets in the way of your paranoid beliefs in the big bad Americans and their complicated manoeuvrings to entrap poor little Julian. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/16/2012 at 8:54 PM, jacee said: I'm wondering why the UK gives a hoot about extraditing to Sweden - to the extreme of threatening to storm the embassy - someone who hasn't even been charged with any crime?! It's pretty clear the complainants are just a ruse to get him extradited to the US where they are foaming at the mouth to lock him up and throw away the key. He will be a hero in history regardless. A hero, eh? What's he done that has helped anyone substantively? What evil secrets has he uncovered? He's embarrassed a bunch of diplomats by leaking their private correspondence, but it's not like the guy has published the Pentagon Papers. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Derek L Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 2:46 AM, Argus said: I don't suppose it's occurred to all you conspiracy loonies that if the Americans wanted to extradite him they could extradite him from the UK, has it? Or for that matter, they could simply let him go back to Australia and extradite him from there. But no, that gets in the way of your paranoid beliefs in the big bad Americans and their complicated manoeuvrings to entrap poor little Julian. Of course, when dealing with a known "Cyber-Terrorist”, there’s another option up the evil Americans sleeve: Quote
Guest Derek L Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 Or maybe, a direct proper British response: Quote
blueblood Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 And this is why we remand people like this so they show up for court to answer to their charges. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
waldo Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 1:38 AM, waldo said: On 8/17/2012 at 12:27 AM, Argus said: There's no evidence! Therefore, he should go back without fear to... uh, I mean, of course he should declare asylum and never go back! God almighty. The Left is just so absolutely PACKED solid with towering intellectual thinking.... save yourself further embarrassment and take a bit of time to get acquainted with a subject you clearly know nothing about... negotiations did occur that would have seen Assange return to Sweden, voluntarily on his own... if the Swedish government offered a guarantee that it would not, in turn, extradite Assange to the U.S.. The Swedish government refused to provide that guarantee. On 8/17/2012 at 2:31 AM, Argus said: Why should they provide any such guarantee? I know that by your lights Assange is some sort of semi-deity deserving of the most extraordinary benefits, but in reality he's just an ordinary person accused of a very ordinary crime. No government makes any guarantees to such people unless it's for an exchange of testimony on something else. If Canada sought to bring him here on a charge we'd offer no guarantee that we wouldn't extradite him to another western democracy which might also have evidence of his wrongdoing. Face it. You don't care if he raped anyone because you love how he tweaked the evil Americans. He could murder babies on camera and you'd just shrug and giggle. no - as you say, Assange is not accused of a crime... he is simply being sought for questioning. Again, no charges have been leveled against Assange. in your flailing about, you should reserve comment/judgement on, as you say, "caring about Assange raping anyone"... until such point as Assange is actually charged with such an offense, hey? as for your questioning on, 'why Sweden should provide such a guarantee', or why Assange should seek such a guarantee: On 6/20/2012 at 7:03 PM, waldo said: as for the expressed concerns over a potential Swedish extradition to the U.S.: Center for Constitutional Rights Condemns Reported Sealed Indictment Against WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange - Leak of Private Intelligence Firm Documents Confirm Existence of Secret Indictment by Secret Grand Jury Quote February 28, 2012, New York – Leaks published today from Stratfor, a private intelligence corporation, indicate the United States Department of Justice has issued a secret, sealed indictment against Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. In response, the Center for Constitutional Rights issued the following statement: Quote
waldo Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 6/23/2012 at 12:05 AM, waldo said: ... as it turns out, Assange's legal council attempted to have Swedish authorities question Assange under 2 different scenarios; (1) where Swedish authorities would come to London and question Assange or (2) where Swedish authorities would question Assange by telephone, from Sweden. Neither of these scenarios were acceptable to Swedish authorities. On 8/17/2012 at 2:41 AM, Argus said: And WHY do you think the Swedish police should consent to this? Because you think Assange is a specially protected individual who should get treated as such, and not like a normal man? For a normal man would certainly not get such treatment. A normal man would simply be sent back to Sweden to answer the charges there.But you rapist loving Lefties don't think Assange should be treated like a normal man. are you a/your described... "normal man" when you so prejudge guilt before actual official charges have been levied? When you become so livid as to brazenly attach your "rapist loving lefties" label... is this you as a/your... "normal man"? at this stage, Swedish authorities simply wish to question Assange. I've described 2 negotiation scenarios that would have realized an avenue for that questioning... Swedish authorities refused to accept either of these scenarios... after, as previously stated, they flat out refused to guarantee Assange wouldn't be, in turn, extradited to the U.S.. Quote
waldo Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 4:06 AM, Derek L said: Of course, when dealing with a known "Cyber-Terrorist”, there’s another option up the evil Americans sleeve: On 8/17/2012 at 4:26 AM, Derek L said: Or maybe, a direct proper British response: does your thinking process ever extend beyond "military might"? Do your dreamy-eyed drone attacks or SAS storming align with the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations... or the 1987 Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act? Do you think there might be a bit of legal pursuit or wrangling involved in this, perhaps just a tad of diplomacy and legal engagement? Or you're just ready to "storm the castle", hey? Quote
bleeding heart Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 1:39 AM, Wilber said: Whether in the UK or Sweden this will be decided by the courts, not politicians. Compared to the aformentioned, I don't see Ecuador as a champion of human rights. You see the UK as a "champion of human rights"? Are you referring to their benign imperial history...or to more recent events like the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people in a totally unnecessary war in Iraq? What's Equador done to equal these glorious paens to human rights? Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) On 8/17/2012 at 2:33 AM, Argus said: It's rational to move to Ecuador and never go home again, EVER, never go to Europe or America or anywhere else (Assange is a very well-traveled guy normally) because you're accused of a crime in Sweden? It's only rational if you know damn well you're guilty. You can pretend to be this stupid, Argus, but I'm not buying it. He is perfectly willing to make himnself available for questioning by Stockholm. He is not willing to be extradited to the US to face indictments. These are two wholly separate issues. Quote Rape, after all, is acceptable if the rapist is anti-American. Ah, so you are sure he is, after all, a rapist. But of course, like everyone else (aside from three people directly involved) you actually have no idea. So in fact, it is you are politicizing rape...because of the wikileaks affair. (Pretty greasy of you, but leave that aside for the moment.) Incidentally, not a single case of harm to anyone has been exposed as a result of wikileaks... ...this, despite the many shrieking tantrums thrown by all the shivering little power-sychophants over the matter, which we've all grown so accustomed to enduring. Quote But you rapist loving Lefties OK...kraychik. You're losing it, man. Get a grip. Edited August 17, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 4:36 AM, blueblood said: And this is why we remand people like this so they show up for court to answer to their charges. There are no charges. There are no charges. how many times does this need to be pointed out? Christ, you little Commissars really have difficulties with the facts, once your need to defend the most powerful entities on Earth grabs you in its alluring headlock. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) .... Edited August 17, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Wilber Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) The obvious comclusion here is that he won't go to Sweden because if he does and is charged, your hero will have nowhere else to hide. No more evading Swedish justice. Fear of being extradited to th US is total BS. The UK and Australia both have extradition treaties.with the US, they don't need nasty old ultra conservative Sweden to do their dirty work. Edited August 17, 2012 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bleeding heart Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) On 8/17/2012 at 1:40 PM, Wilber said: The obvious comclusion here is that he won't go to Sweden because if he does and is charged, your hero will have nowhere else to hide. No more evading Swedish justice. Fear of being extradited to th US is total BS. The UK and Australia both have extradition treaties.with the US, they don't need nasty old ultra conservative Sweden to do their dirty work. It's an "obvious conclusion" to sycophants who, like government officials in so many countries, despise whistleblowers...even when no harm is caused to anybody, and government machinations and deceit are exposed. Right, he's trying to "evade Swedish justice"--in which no charges have even been laid, and he is only wanted for questioning. There is, as of yet, no "justice" which he is evading. Whereas the United States actually has a sealed indictment against him...totally irrelevant, I suppose. I mean, seriously, it's not as if anyone of the critics actually care about the rape allegations. At all. They care about wikileaks...and they don't much like this sort of thing. Upsets the frame of mind that tends towards obedience. The fact is that Swedish authorities have had multiple opportunities to question Assange...which they claim is what they wanted in the first place. They have refused to do so. Why? Edited August 17, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Guest Derek L Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 7:25 AM, waldo said: does your thinking process ever extend beyond "military might"? Do your dreamy-eyed drone attacks or SAS storming align with the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations... or the 1987 Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act? Do you think there might be a bit of legal pursuit or wrangling involved in this, perhaps just a tad of diplomacy and legal engagement? Or you're just ready to "storm the castle", hey? If esteemed members Waldo or Derek L were wanted for questioning, would either of us be able to attempt to leverage concessions from the police? As to the Drones/SAS, clearly a trumped up response to the tin-foil……..I’m certain the authorities in this case would be quite content with waiting him out, and allowing Assange to spend his days living in a closet in the embassy……Best hope he doesn’t require medical assistance any time soon mind you. Quote
Guest Derek L Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 10:40 AM, bleeding heart said: You can pretend to be this stupid, Argus, but I'm not buying it. He is perfectly willing to make himnself available for questioning by Stockholm. He is not willing to be extradited to the US to face indictments. These are two wholly separate issues. Ah, so you are sure he is, after all, a rapist. But of course, like everyone else (aside from three people directly involved) you actually have no idea. So in fact, it is you are politicizing rape...because of the wikileaks affair. (Pretty greasy of you, but leave that aside for the moment.) Incidentally, not a single case of harm to anyone has been exposed as a result of wikileaks... ...this, despite the many shrieking tantrums thrown by all the shivering little power-sychophants over the matter, which we've all grown so accustomed to enduring. OK...kraychik. You're losing it, man. Get a grip. If he’s concerned about being extradited by the Americans, with the aide of the Swedes and British, my question, why didn’t the evil Americans have the Brits just pick him up in London prior to his retreat to the Ecuadorian embassy? Quote
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 6:53 AM, waldo said: are you a/your described... "normal man" when you so prejudge guilt before actual official charges have been levied? When you become so livid as to brazenly attach your "rapist loving lefties" label... is this you as a/your... "normal ma Phhht! And haven't you all already prejudged him innocent!? Of course you have! Quote at this stage, Swedish authorities simply wish to question Assange.Then why is he fighting so desperately to avoid going back there to be questioned? Why is he willing to live the entire rest of his life running form Interpol and stuck in Ecuador of all places... to avoid questioning? Quote I've described 2 negotiation scenarios that would have realized an avenue for that questioning... Police don't question people by telephone, and as I've already stated, ordinary people don't get to choose the location of where they are to be questioned. As for your paranoia, as I've also already pointed out, the U.S. could just as easily extradite him from Britain or Australia if they wanted to. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 10:40 AM, bleeding heart said: You can pretend to be this stupid, Argus, but I'm not buying it. You lefties always think anyone who fails to adhere to proper groupthink is either mentally ill or deficient. It's part of your extreme authoritarian mentality. Quote He is perfectly willing to make himnself available for questioning by Stockholm. Of course he is! That's why he's spent the last two years desperately fighting extradition to Sweden! Quote He is not willing to be extradited to the US to face indictments. Why? If he's innocent he needn't worry about extradition to the U.S., which, as I've pointed out several times, has treaties with most western countries, including his putative home in Australia. Is he not willing to go home to Australia either? Hmm? If Sweden drops it's demands will he refuse to return home in case the U.S. decides to extradite him? Quote Ah, so you are sure he is, after all, a rapist. You seem sure he isn't, sure enough to praise Ecuador for shielding him. Why should I not take the opposite tack? Quote Incidentally, not a single case of harm to anyone has been exposed as a result of wikileaks... ...this, despite the many shrieking tantrums thrown by all the shivering little power-sychophants over the matter, which we've all grown so accustomed to enduring. I'm sure we couldn't prove actual harm if we released all your private correspondence either. I'm not sure how that gives people the right to hack into your computer and publish them. Not sure why you praise a dirty little snoop like Assange either, given that he focuses on western countries but seems to keep clear of dangerous places like Russia or China, where his hacking and publishing efforts might get him shot. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
waldo Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 3:48 PM, Derek L said: If he’s concerned about being extradited by the Americans, with the aide of the Swedes and British, my question, why didn’t the evil Americans have the Brits just pick him up in London prior to his retreat to the Ecuadorian embassy? On 8/17/2012 at 4:10 PM, Argus said: hey genius'... apparently, as I understand it, Assange could not be extradited to the US from the UK based on any of the possible Swedish charges against him. You wizards might, in turn, like to answer why the U.S. hasn't done just exactly what you're trumpeting... and requested your contemplated extradition directly from the UK, hey? Is there a problem, hey? Quote
Argus Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 3:10 PM, bleeding heart said: It's an "obvious conclusion" to sycophants who, like government officials in many quesitons, despise whistleblowers...even when no harm is caused to anybody, and government machinations and deceit are exposed. I love how you lefties praise a guy whose work was learned by the examples set by such esteemed freedom loving institutions as the National Enquirer and News of the World. He doesn't expose government machinations and deceit, he just provides internal correspondence to embarrass people for his slavering audience of voyeurs. Quote Right, he's trying to "evade Sweish justice"--in which no charges have even been laid, and he is only wanted for questioning. There is, as of yet, no "justice" which he is evading. Why you people cling to this absurdity is beyond me. The guy has fought extradition for two years. So clearly he's evading Swedish justice, and you know it, and you don't care. Your hatred of western governments and capitalism is such that you excuse any illegality on the part of someone championing your cause. Quote Whereas the United States actually has a sealed indictment against him...totally irrelevant, I suppose.If the U.S. has a "sealed indictment" (OHMYGOD-OHMYGOD!) then why don't they just extradite him directly? Quote I mean, seriously, it's not as if anyone of the critics actually care about the rape allegations. At all. Certainly YOU don't! Quote They care about wikileaks...and they don't much like this sort of thing. Upsets the frame of mind that tends towards obedience. Riiiight, as if the Left don't have a determined love of re-education camps for anyone who dares to oppose them, as if the Left doesn't get violent with those who disagree with them. As if the Left has the slightest tolerance for deviation from political correctness. This is why the NDP requires slavish adherence to each and every single party policy by all representatives. No individual thoughts or beliefs are accepted. Quote The fact is that Swedish authorities have had multiple opportunities to question Assange...which they claim is what they wanted in the first place. They have refused to do so. Why? Tell you what. Next time the police want to question you, you tell them they can call you up on the phone. See where that gets you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wilber Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) On 8/17/2012 at 3:10 PM, bleeding heart said: It's an "obvious conclusion" to sycophants who, like government officials in many questions, despise whistleblowers...even when no harm is caused to anybody, and government machinations and deceit are exposed. So because governments despise whistleblowers, they should be immune from prosecution for any crime. Got it. In countries like Canada, the UK and Sweden, the courts decide guilt or innocense, not government officials. Quote Right, he's trying to "evade Sweish justice"--in which no charges have even been laid, and he is only wanted for questioning. There is, as of yet, no "justice" which he is evading. A: It is customary to interview suspects before laying charges. B: Unlike some posters, the Swedes are not deluded enough to think that he would voluntarily go to Sweden if they laid charges while he was in England. The were right, the guy jumped bail just to avoid questioning in Sweden let alone face charges. C: In spite of your trashing the British justice system you must feel it is less likely to extradite him to the US than the Swedish system. Quote Whereas the United States actually has a sealed indictment against him...totally irrelevant, I suppose. Totally, it has no force outside of the US. No civilized country will order an extradition on the basis of a "sealed" endictment. Quote I mean, seriously, it's not as if anyone of the critics actually care about the rape allegations. At all. It is patently obvious that his supporters don't. Quote They care about wikileaks...and they don't much like this sort of thing. Upsets the frame of mind that tends towards obedience. Poor babies. Assange believes himself to be above the law. He is finding otherwise. Until he jumped bail, I had no issue with him using the legal system to its full extent but he decided to become a fugitive when things didn't go his way. One thing, if he sets foot outside that embassy, he will be in a jail cell until this is finaly resolved. He will never be trusted with bail again. Quote The fact is that Swedish authorities have had multiple opportunities to question Assange...which they claim is what they wanted in the first place.They have refused to do so. Why? They believed he was a flight risk. They were right. Edited August 17, 2012 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
waldo Posted August 17, 2012 Report Posted August 17, 2012 On 8/17/2012 at 4:10 PM, Argus said: Phhht! And haven't you all already prejudged him innocent!? Of course you have! no - unlike you and your 'normal man self'... I have not prejudged anything... well, other than the U.S. is orchestrating this whole undertaking. On 8/17/2012 at 4:10 PM, Argus said: Then why is he fighting so desperately to avoid going back there to be questioned? Why is he willing to live the entire rest of his life running form Interpol and stuck in Ecuador of all places... to avoid questioning?Police don't question people by telephone, and as I've already stated, ordinary people don't get to choose the location of where they are to be questioned. Argus fail! No, the Swedish authorities have, quite regularly, followed this exact offered scenario... gone to other countries to question persons concerning ongoing investigations. Assange's legal 'team' has attempted to arrange multiple avenues for this questioning... even in the recent days run-up prior to Ecuador granting asylum, there was an offer to have Swedish authorities question Assange in the Ecuador embassy. The U.S. Swedish authorities rejected that offer! Quote
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