"EU boss lashes out at Stephen Harper"

[GostHacked]

Well, some banks are to blame for sure and some political leaders too.

That list has grown quite large over the past few years. Getting bigger all the time!

[Smallc]

Certainly; absolutely. But if I'm wrong, all the better.

I guess you haven't been here that long, so I'll assume that's why.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Smallc

[bleeding heart]

I guess you haven't been here that long, so I'll assume that's why.

I have been here for some time, previously under "bloodyminded."

As to your alleged too-quick defense of the Conservatives in every case...if you say that's flatly untrue, I'm inclined to take you at your word. My impressions are nothing more than that.

Edited June 21, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Smallc]

I not defend decisions that I agree with...no matter who is in charge.

[Michael Hardner]

That list has grown quite large over the past few years. Getting bigger all the time!

Right, but the people had choices and there was no political will to investigate growing deficits. This is why the people must share some of the blame.

[Michael Hardner]

If you dont know of any choice the Greeks could have made then why on earth would you condemn them for not making that choice?

Once again. You condemn the greeks for not voting for austerity. Who were they supposed to vote for?

I looked into this briefly, and according to the Wiki page on the topic there were calls to investigate the deficit well before the crisis happened, but there was no political will.

[Canuckistani]

I looked into this briefly, and according to the Wiki page on the topic there were calls to investigate the deficit well before the crisis happened, but there was no political will.

And that makes the average Greek culpable and deserving of punishment? Ultimately, something has to happen. Even if they are bailed out, there is and will be a lot of suffering in Greece. That's how it has to be. My complaint about this, and the US, and Canada, is that it's always the people at the bottom who are made to suffer, while the people who actually caused the problem go on their merry way. The pain should be dished out in inverse proportion to wealth - the more you have the more you should feel the pain.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Canuckistani

[GostHacked]

Right, but the people had choices and there was no political will to investigate growing deficits.

If the government is not willing to investigate itself and get control of it, what do you propose we do? Maybe it is a good idea to fire the whole lot and start over.

This is why the people must share some of the blame.

I see your point, but how do the people know what is going on when the political process is getting more tight lipped as we go. For example, we are just finding out about the non-bail-out our banks recently got. The only blame that can be placed on the people is that they selected X on the ballot.

The media is for the most part, complicit in not giving the public the information we need as well, and if the needed information is given out, it's not in a timely manner, or released so long after the fact that it's irrelevant now. The government does release information, but they do it in a way that it's public, but the public does not know about it. They can post it on the websites in an obscure place on the site that people won't know how to get there.

Obfuscation is also another tactic the government and media pull on us. Get all worked up over a million dollars missing, but disregard the 20 million being pissed away on other crappy unnecessary government projects.

In order for the people to monitor government properly, some of it's departments need to be eliminated or seriously downsized. Cut out the unneeded bureaucracy, and make government more efficient. We also need news reporting that actually does investigative journalism instead of just spewing out whatever the Public Relations part of the government tells them.

Unnamed government official, or anonymous government sources and the like don't help as well.

Edited June 21, 2012 by GostHacked

[dre]

I looked into this briefly, and according to the Wiki page on the topic there were calls to investigate the deficit well before the crisis happened, but there was no political will.

Theres calls to investigate the deficit here and in the US as well. THere pretty much always a handfull of deficit hawk in every country.

The point is there was no mainstream political party that made this a big part of its platform. Also it seems to me that maybe you should have read up on that BEFORE you blamed the Greeks for not voting to tackle the deficit?

The reality is that Greek got all kinds of feedback on what they were doing from their own financial apparatus, from their creditors, and signals from the market as well. The problem is it was based on projections that turned out to be wrong because the global financial crisis wiped out a large part of their economy and hit them much harder than it hit other countries because of its heavy reliance on things like tourism and shipping.

Greece DOES bare some of the blame... They should never have joined the eurozone. This was a gigantic mistake and they are paying for it dearly. But the "lazy tax evading greeks" meme needs to go in the trash bin where it belongs.

[Michael Hardner]

And that makes the average Greek culpable and deserving of punishment?

The public of Greece overall has to share the blame, is all I'm saying. If it were a dictatorship, we'd be blaming the dictator for ruining the economy but it's not - it's a democracy.

Ultimately, something has to happen. Even if they are bailed out, there is and will be a lot of suffering in Greece. That's how it has to be. My complaint about this, and the US, and Canada, is that it's always the people at the bottom who are made to suffer, while the people who actually caused the problem go on their merry way.

That may be generally true, but it's not entirely true. Investors will lose out, politicians will have their careers ruined, and banks will be hit.

The pain should be dished out in inverse proportion to wealth - the more you have the more you should feel the pain.

You're advocating just taking the money from the wealthy and distributing it. How do you think that would work out ?

[Michael Hardner]

If the government is not willing to investigate itself and get control of it, what do you propose we do? Maybe it is a good idea to fire the whole lot and start over.

There have already been quite a few politicians tossed out, i.e. 'fired'.

I see your point, but how do the people know what is going on when the political process is getting more tight lipped as we go. For example, we are just finding out about the non-bail-out our banks recently got. The only blame that can be placed on the people is that they selected X on the ballot.

Bad example - the 'bail out' involved the sale of securities that netted a profit for the Canadian public. Politicians did the right thing in that case.

Also, the whole thing was public and not hidden.

The media is for the most part, complicit in not giving the public the information we need as well, and if the needed information is given out, it's not in a timely manner, or released so long after the fact that it's irrelevant now. The government does release information, but they do it in a way that it's public, but the public does not know about it. They can post it on the websites in an obscure place on the site that people won't know how to get there.

Well, I'm with you on this. I think a new kind of journalism will/should arise to deal with these examples. The Sunlight Foundation in the US is a great example of what can be done.

[Canuckistani]

You're advocating just taking the money from the wealthy and distributing it. How do you think that would work out ?

Can it be worse that what we're seeing now? It's time to get far tougher on the people who caused and mainly benefited from this mess. To keep bailing out the wealthy on the backs of the middle an the poor is a sure recipe for disaster.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Canuckistani

[dre]

You're advocating just taking the money from the wealthy and distributing it. How do you think that would work out ?

Not money.... PURCHASING POWER. You devalue the dollars instead of siezing them. If you devalue by 50% everyone sacrifices, but people with very high wages are large fortunes sacrifice more in terms of absolute purchasing power.

THe reality is that when you dump borrowed money into the economy investors, businesses, and people with extremely high wages end up with the vast majority of it. Any measures to rebalance the debt need go to where that money actually IS to find it. Thats why devaluation is fair. It strips each and every dollar in circulation of some purchasing power regardless of where it is or who has it.

[Michael Hardner]

Theres calls to investigate the deficit here and in the US as well. THere pretty much always a handfull of deficit hawk in every country.

In this country, those hawks were known as the Reform Party. They represented a large proportion of the Canadian electorate, and as official opposition were able to raise the profile of our economic problems. The Liberals, as Liberals do, saw the sense in this and acted on the idea in the 1990s.

We are lucky that they did.

The point is there was no mainstream political party that made this a big part of its platform. Also it seems to me that maybe you should have read up on that BEFORE you blamed the Greeks for not voting to tackle the deficit?

Incorrect:

When the conservative party New Democracy won the March 7 elections in 2004, it said it would start an objective financial audit of the government accounts. George Papandreou, president of Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) which was the main opposition at that time, and the other two smaller parties, initially agreed with the need for an audit. But it lasted a very short time during which neither outside auditing firms nor the central bank were asked to carry out such an audit.

Greece DOES bare some of the blame... They should never have joined the eurozone. This was a gigantic mistake and they are paying for it dearly. But the "lazy tax evading greeks" meme needs to go in the trash bin where it belongs.

There's really not much use in name-calling or scapegoating a culture in that way. It could happen with any culture or country, really. Japan has endured bad economic times for something like 20 years, and they were touted as the economic powerhouse of the 21st century, certainly not seen as lazy.

It's a question of policies put forward by elected governments is all. Putting responsibility on the public for how they got there is, to my mind, part of the cost of being a democracy and not at all the same as blaming them.

[Michael Hardner]

Can it be worse that what we're seeing now? It's time to get far tougher on the people who caused and mainly benefited from this mess. To keep bailing out the wealthy on the backs of the middle an the poor is a sure recipe for disaster.

I'll ask again - how do you think it would work out ? And - how would it work ?

[Michael Hardner]

Not money.... PURCHASING POWER. You devalue the dollars instead of siezing them. If you devalue by 50% everyone sacrifices, but people with very high wages are large fortunes sacrifice more in terms of absolute purchasing power.

That will also hit the common people, because they import basics such as food and clothing.

THe reality is that when you dump borrowed money into the economy investors, businesses, and people with extremely high wages end up with the vast majority of it. Any measures to rebalance the debt need go to where that money actually IS to find it. Thats why devaluation is fair. It strips each and every dollar in circulation of some purchasing power regardless of where it is or who has it.

Yes, the wealthiest always end up with the most money. That may make us feel good in terms of knowing who to blame, but how does it fix things ?

[dre]

That will also hit the common people, because they import basics such as food and clothing.

Yes, the wealthiest always end up with the most money. That may make us feel good in terms of knowing who to blame, but how does it fix things ?

That will also hit the common people

As it should.

Yes, the wealthiest always end up with the most money. That may make us feel good in terms of knowing who to blame, but how does it fix things ?

Has nothing to do with blaming anyone. Its about marshaling enough wealth to rebalance the debt. You have to go after the money where it actually exists.

No sure why you responded to my statement as if it were class warfare rhetoric or something. It most definately was not. And devaluation isnt some crackpot idea of mine, its simply how the market handles these things. Its the built in market mechanism to avoid exactly the problem we see in Greece.

Wealthy greeks were not to blame for this, the ECB (and the Greek politicians that put Greece in bed with the ECB), and more broadly the global economic crisis are too blame.

Edited June 21, 2012 by dre

[Canuckistani]

I'll go with Dre on this - sounds like he knows way more about this than I do. Of course the pain will hit everybody, but as he says, it needs to hit the wealthy the most because that is where the money is.

[Michael Hardner]

As it should.

Ok, why should it ? I'm confused now, it sounds like YOU now think that the average Greek person should be penalized for the current situation, when you seemed to be saying the opposite above.

No sure why you responded to my statement as if it were class warfare rhetoric or something. It most definately was not. And devaluation isnt some crackpot idea of mine, its simply how the market handles these things. Its the built in market mechanism to avoid exactly the problem we see in Greece.

Maybe you're right here. You still have the edge on me in this area, so I will go away and learn more.

[Michael Hardner]

Wait a second... I got hoodwinked ! They can't devalue the Euro because it's not their currency to devalue. What do you mean, devaluation ?

[dre]

Ok, why should it ? I'm confused now, it sounds like YOU now think that the average Greek person should be penalized for the current situation, when you seemed to be saying the opposite above.

I just said they were not to blame, or at least should not be principle beneficiaries.

But at the end of the day its their house thats on fire and they are going to have to put it out no matter who started it. With either devaluation or austerity the people in greece are going to suffer. But austerity apportions suffering based on who is most dependant on public property and services, instead of based on who benefited the most from all the monetary expansion in the first place and who can bear it without being completely destroyed.

Devaluation would be much less likely to cause riots in the streets and civil unrest as well... unless you go too far too fast.

[dre]

Wait a second... I got hoodwinked ! They can't devalue the Euro because it's not their currency to devalue. What do you mean, devaluation ?

Not hoodwinked. Thats exactly what Iv been trying to explain to you and why joining the Eurozone was such a grave mistake.

[Michael Hardner]

Devaluation would be much less likely to cause riots in the streets and civil unrest as well... unless you go too far too fast.

Not hoodwinked. Thats exactly what Iv been trying to explain to you and why joining the Eurozone was such a grave mistake.

Not sure about that. I'm still reading about devaluation and hyperinflation is a scary prospect.

Europe should have been more stringent in their audits of Greece. They did raise alarms in the earlier 2000s but didn't follow up.

[Canuckistani]

But at the end of the day its their house thats on fire and they are going to have to put it out no matter who started it. With either devaluation or austerity the people in greece are going to suffer. But austerity apportions suffering based on who is most dependant on public property and services, instead of based on who benefited the most from all the monetary expansion in the first place and who can bear it without being completely destroyed.

Exactly what I've been trying to say, except said better.

The Euro was a mistake, but it's here and getting rid of it may be worse than the disease. (OTOH, it may wind up happening by default anyway). So if the Euro is kept, there needs to be a mechanism in place that places the burden for squarely on those who benefited most and can most afford to lose.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Canuckistani

[GostHacked]

Ok, why should it ? I'm confused now, it sounds like YOU now think that the average Greek person should be penalized for the current situation, when you seemed to be saying the opposite above.

But you said earlier that the people are somewhat to blame for it. Seems like an inconsistency Mike.