The Just Society and its enemies

[maplesyrup]

Article

Bilingualism, or language equality, does not mean everybody can, or should, speak French. But it is interesting that French language rights have come to be understood, in Canada, to be like other rights. Voters see that if you take one right away, other rights are endangered as well.

The just society still has its enemies though — those who want to treat homosexuality as a medical condition, or criminalize abortion, or stop the Supreme Court from interpreting the Charter of Rights, or limit access to services in French.

Isn't it about time we Canadians bite the bullet and thoroughly entrench French right across the country. If we don't we seriously risk losing Quebec .

[Stoker]

Isn't it about time we Canadians bite the bullet and thoroughly entrench French right across the country.

By entrench, do you mean force people to learn a dying language? Perhaps Latin would also be a good choice.

If we don't we seriously risk losing Quebec

You say that as if it where a bad thing.........only means that the timeframe for the West to leave will be hastened.

[maplesyrup]

Canadian Parents for French

A great Canadian organization that probably has done more to enhance Candian unity that any other group in the country.

[playfullfellow]

You are talking about forced bilingualism MS and that just does not work. A second language should be a choice. Why do we not see the same rules apply in Quebec as you figure we should have in the ROC? I am bilingual but can not speak French. I will encourage my kids to learn a second language but it will be the language of their choice. Enacting new and more language laws across Canada will not appease Quebec in the least. In all honesty, they don't really give a hairy rats butt what goes on in the ROC. They prefer to look after their own interests first which is their business. We should look after our own interests and stop wasting our hard earned dollars on bilingualism.

[takeanumber]

You're assuming that Quebec cares what the hell the rest of Canada does.

I don't think most Quebeckers care if some polygamist in inner BC speaks french or not.

They care about their own culture.

[Bakunin]

In all honesty, they don't really give a hairy rats butt what goes on in the ROC. They prefer to look after their own interests first which is their business. We should look after our own interests and stop wasting our hard earned dollars on bilingualism.

You're assuming that Quebec cares what the hell the rest of Canada does.

I don't think most Quebeckers care if some polygamist in inner BC speaks french or not.

They care about their own culture.

Exaclty !!! Im really happy, because its the first time someone here really understand us. We have our own little world and the roc is not important for us, actually i think we care more whats happening in usa than in the roc. We don't hate canadian but at the same time we want to be able to control our own business.

i agree with takeanumber and playfullfellow, we speak french but its capital for us to be able to "speak white" if don't want to be limited. I don't know if you understand but if i just look on my desk right now, my tv controler is in english, music, cd, games are mostly wrote in english, my internet explorer is in english. And im studying to become a programmer. Evry computer language are in english. Its evrywhere and even in our language. If their is a new revolutionary product invented, if we dont give it a french name quick enough, we will just use the english name for it.

On the other hand, for english speakers, learning french is not capital. For english quebecers, its capital but not english canadian.

Federalist like the idea of a billingual country, of biculturalism and noe multiculturalism but in reality, its more like 2 country , 2 nations, 2 language, 2 culture, 2 ideology.

A cat, and a dog. Sometime similar but on the base, different and no mather what happend.

[maplesyrup]

Guys, it is time to wake up. Canada was founded by two cultures, the French and the English, and we are officially bilingual.

It is time for use to begin using French much more openly in BC for example, time for all schools in the country to become bilingual, and time for you to take your heads out of the sand.

There is no way Quebec is every going to separate, there is the aspect of partitioning Quebec, and the aspect of a civil war, so to avoid such scenarios, we had better smarten up, and get used to each other, and stop the nonsense coming from both sides of the country.

And it is time for the people in Quebec to create a provincial left-of-centre political party that supports federalism.

[Bakunin]

Guys, it is time to wake up. Canada was founded by two cultures, the French and the English, and we are officially bilingual.

It is time for use to begin using French much more openly in BC for example, time for all schools in the country to become bilingual, and time for you to take your heads out of the sand.

You must wake up, we don't live in a uthopia and forcing bilingualism is losing time and money.

There is no way Quebec is every going to separate, there is the aspect of partitioning Quebec, and the aspect of a civil war, so to avoid such scenarios, we had better smarten up, and get used to each other, and stop the nonsense coming from both sides of the country.

Partitioning quebec and civil war are english canadian scenario. after loosing by 0,6% the sovreignist did not start a civil war... they went home and went to sleep. Has would any society respecting democracy.

stop the nonsense coming from both sides of the country.

you mean coming outside ontario.

And it is time for the people in Quebec to create a provincial left-of-centre political party that supports federalism.

i already told you... 99% of the left don't support federalism. By the law of nature, nobody make a party that nobody wants.

[caesar]

There is no reason for BC to learn French as a second language. Besides what they speak in Quebec is not the same French as they speak in France.

As an official bilingual country we need to be able to provide services to anyone who speaks French here in BC. We do. We provide services for those who speak other languages which are more prevalent first languages, too. The insistence that we in BC should learn or be able to converse and write in French is ridiculous. It would be a waste of time. It irritates westerners to be told that we should do so when in Quebec that respect for a language(English) which is very prominent second language is NOT respected nor are any English signs allowed. BC person should learn Chinese or even Japanese as that is a language that is often asked for in ads for employment.

The French people in Quebec do NOT really care whether we speak French or not. Too bad that when the English captured Canada from the French that we allowed them to keep their own language.

[Argus]

Isn't it about time we Canadians bite the bullet and thoroughly entrench French right across the country. If we don't we seriously risk losing Quebec . 

Don't worry, the French are doing their level best to entrench French everywhere. It's all they care about. They virtually run the country because of their own bigotry in always voting for French candidates, and lickspittle anglos who let themselves be walked all over year after year after year.

Do we have to go through - again - how much money goes to Quebec, and how utterly ungrateful they are for it, refusing to even acknowledge they get more than they pay? Do we have to go throguh the French tribal voting which has seen a Quebec cabinet lead this country for the last forty years? Do we need to go through, again, the government's own statistics which shows a growing number of federal government jobs going to Francophones as Anglos are left out?

Risk losing Quebec? I could only dream of Quebec leaving. I consider them a foreign country populated by an arrogant, largely hostile, self-serving people. I wish they would leave.

[Argus]

You are talking about forced bilingualism MS and that just does not work.

Oh, it works well enough in Ottawa. If you want to work for the government, want to work in a store which is in one of their buildings, want to do business with them, or even around them you need to speak French.

[maplesyrup]

You are talking about forced bilingualism MS and that just does not work.

Oh, it works well enough in Ottawa. If you want to work for the government, want to work in a store which is in one of their buildings, want to do business with them, or even around them you need to speak French.

Risk losing Quebec? I could only dream of Quebec leaving. I consider them a foreign country populated by an arrogant, largely hostile, self-serving people. I wish they would leave.

Fortunately your opinions are an extreme minority viewpoint.

[seabee]

I could only dream of Quebec leaving. I consider them a foreign country populated by an arrogant, largely hostile, self-serving people. I wish they would leave.

How odd! this is exactly what Québécois think of the ROC.

[Argus]

I could only dream of Quebec leaving. I consider them a foreign country populated by an arrogant, largely hostile, self-serving people. I wish they would leave.

How odd! this is exactly what Québécois think of the ROC.

Yes, more than half of Quebecois voted to leave last vote, and the polls consistently show their numbers hover around 50% (among Quebecois, excluding Anglo/Alophones). Many Quebecois who voted to stay did so purely out of economic self interest. Most likely, if you took away that fear - if, for example, Quebec discovered a huge reservoir of oil underneath it - they would seperate tomorrow. There seems precious little love of Canada among Francophone Quebecers.

Of course, if you are a Quebecois and you say you want to leave Canada you are respected by Anglophones as simply a proud Quebecois. If you are Anglo and wants rid of Quebec you are generally condemned as a bigot.

[Big Blue Machine]

a bigot?

[Slavik44]

Isn't it about time we Canadians bite the bullet and thoroughly entrench French right across the country. If we don't we seriously risk losing Quebec .

MS this is where, I belive, the problems come from, what you are trying to do is force French down my throat I had it forced up my ass and down my throat through out school all the while having teachers attempt to brain wash me into beliving my life would end with out it, the first four weeks of every school year were designed to tell me the benifiets fo learning French, but it was never a choice, it was never a desire of mine to learn French and for myself and many of my clasmates french simply became a tourture session forced on us by quebec. this does not solve the problem it creates a new problem, one of hostility and antogonism everytime French and Quebec come up. when honestly I don't belive someon in Quebec Gives a rats ass wether or not I can say Je peut aller aux toilettes? Is this what you wan tMS to instill the future of Caanda with a hostility towards the that to me is counter productive, co-existence is no problem it is the invasivenes of current federalist policies and suggested federalist policies that our the problem no one has a problem co-existing, it is the fealing of being invaded they have a problem with, and invasive wave two or three or whatever one were on will not fix the fealing it will ENTRENCH the fealing. So instead of telling people to take their heads out of the sand perhaps it is time we take our heads out of are asses and truly look at what has the possibility of working with harmony and not result in hatred, Oh and excuse my French.

[RB]

I would like to pick-up the argument from this view:

“Canada was founded by two cultures, the French and the English, and we are officially bilingual”

These debates have not change the last time I checked and there are non conclusive agreements on the usefulness of bilingualism, what is true are the arguments are nearly always political in nature.

So now look at it from the education standpoint:

here is your a non-english person forced into:

- One syllabus, one goal, one direction as in English

- Designed to meet one group needs: English

- So notice any difference identified

- Now see a deficiency is identified

- Hence change must occur but ONLY one group must change

Are you seeing

..... disadvantages, and a

......cultural deprivation? Can we now say

......INTOLERANCE?

I ask why are we so compelled to uphold the dominance of English instead of French if we as a country were borne out of the two languages? my take is those against bilingual systems propose threats to national unity

But then maybe this language never really unites as country as is thought, or perhaps the misfit culture that allows us to display with affection bigotry and ugly intolerance.

I would like someone to tell if language and culture are not parts of a country's self-image then WHAT is?

Look, I have this recent experience with language tussle, rebuffed to speak English, one woman was making a report … complaining about the toilet paper. The good devious folks incessant for language improvement in their pure English told her what to say and properly “the paper is hard on the pussy”. My point is here is a very basic situation, and English has dominated as incidental silliness

Our two cultures carry the overtones of who and what we are, emphasis on the language symbolises those meaning when we speak, when we love, when we read, its our heaven to “outside” of the “self”.

if we reject one of our cultures, you are looking at the detriment of a being starting with you.

[caesar]

Fortunately your opinions are an extreme minority viewpoint.

Not as much a minority as you may think. We are Canadian and try to be polite. We would like Quebec to get off its high horse and make an attempt to be Canadian. Many of us are getting fed up with the government trying to buy their love and appeasing Quebec instead of us all working together. When Quebec outlawed any English signs; for me that was the last straw. Don't try to make us all speak French; there are only a minority of French speaking people in BC. We are obligated to make sure there are sufficient translators to assist any French Canadian in our province be it in court cases, hospital or wherever. We do our best to accomodate everyone. There is a larger need for translators to speak Chines and Punjabi here; they are the main languages spoken by BC citizens with a mother tongue other thab English. We encourage and have no problems with signs in any language that the locals understand.

[playfullfellow]

if we reject one of our cultures, you are looking at the detriment of a being starting with you.

I suppose this does not include any actions by Quebec and their language policies? This has to be a 2 way street and I see no evidence of this at all where Quebec is concerned. I have been to Quebec, didn't get treated very well at all, we were immigrants from another country. Got treated so poorly that we decided to move west. Why does this always turn around to be a bigotry thing if a person is not in favour of bilingualism? Is the cost of bilingualism really worth all this BS? I can think of countless better ways to spend our tax dollars. Let Quebec run their province the way they see fit and let the ROC do the same. Why not put official bilingualism up for a national referendum? It might be rather interesting to see what the results are. It only has to be 50% plus 1, right?

[Bakunin]

English sign are not outlawed, they are supposed to put a french sign as big as the other language sign thats all. But the law is not even applyed.

As for playfullfellow,i think he understand that quebec and roc is night and day. I went one time to ottawa and i felt less home and comfortable than in new-york usa. i felt less connected culturally i think.

[playfullfellow]

English sign are not outlawed, they are supposed to put a french sign as big as the other language sign thats all. But the law is not even applyed

I thought that there is a stipulation about the sizing of the other language too? I seem to remember that the French portion has to be larger than say the English. Correct me if I am wrong.

Bakunin is correct that Quebec and ROC are different cultures. Just look at the differences between France and England, the basis for both of our cultures. Forcing people to accept these cultures will not work. The problem is that there really is not a common goal that both Quebec and the ROC can agree on.

[maplesyrup]

No one is forcing anything down anyone's throat, just like no one is forcing anyone to move to Canada, with its two official languages.

When one attends school one takes a variety of subjects and in Canada we need to be teaching both languages from kindergarten up. As a matter of fact we need a bilingual school system - it's long overdue.

Why would any parent not want their child to learn both official languages? I can't imagine any parent wanting to deprive their child of the best future possibile in Canda, and that requires learning both official languages. You learn math, physics, biology, writing, spelling, at school. Do you consider those subjects being forced down your throat. There has to be some minimum standards and French has to one of them across Canada.

Question: Have we always had two official languages, or is this a relative recent situation?

[maplesyrup]

Section 133 of what used to be called the British North America Act now called the Constitution Act of 1867:

Either the English or the French Language may be used by any Person in the Debates of the Houses of the Parliament of Canada and of the Houses of the Legislature of Quebec; and both those Languages shall be used in the respective Records and Journals of those Houses; and either of those Languages may be used by any Person or in any Pleading or Process in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under this Act, and in or from all or any of the Courts of Quebec.

The Acts of the Parliament of Canada and of the Legislature of Quebec shall be printed and published in both those Languages. (66)

This is to just start with.

[maplesyrup]

The Constitution Act of 1982

Official Languages of Canada

Official languages of Canada 16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

Official languages of New Brunswick (2) English and French are the official languages of New Brunswick and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the legislature and government of New Brunswick.

Advancement of status and use (3) Nothing in this Charter limits the authority of Parliament or a legislature to advance the equality of status or use of English and French.

English and French linguistic communities in New Brunswick 16.1. (1) The English linguistic community and the French linguistic community in New Brunswick have equality of status and equal rights and privileges, including the right to distinct educational institutions and such distinct cultural institutions as are necessary for the preservation and promotion of those communities.

Role of the legislature and government of New Brunswick (2) The role of the legislature and government of New Brunswick to preserve and promote the status, rights and privileges referred to in subsection (1) is affirmed. (83.1)

Proceedings of Parliament 17. (1) Everyone has the right to use English or French in any debates and other proceedings of Parliament. (84)

Proceedings of New Brunswick legislature (2) Everyone has the right to use English or French in any debates and other proceedings of the legislature of New Brunswick. (85)

Parliamentary statutes and records 18. (1) The statutes, records and journals of Parliament shall be printed and published in English and French and both language versions are equally authoritative. (86)

New Brunswick statutes and records (2) The statutes, records and journals of the legislature of New Brunswick shall be printed and published in English and French and both language versions are equally authoritative. (87)

Proceedings in courts established by Parliament 19. (1) Either English or French may be used by any person in, or in any pleading in or process issuing from, any court established by Parliament. (88)

Proceedings in New Brunswick courts (2) Either English or French may be used by any person in, or in any pleading in or process issuing from, any court of New Brunswick. (89)

Communications by public with federal institutions 20. (1) Any member of the public in Canada has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any head or central office of an institution of the Parliament or government of Canada in English or French, and has the same right with respect to any other office of any such institution where

(a) there is a significant demand for communications with and services from that office in such language; or

( due to the nature of the office, it is reasonable that communications with and services from that office be available in both English and French.

Communications by public with New Brunswick institutions (2) Any member of the public in New Brunswick has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any office of an institution of the legislature or government of New Brunswick in English or French.

Continuation of existing constitutional provisions 21. Nothing in sections 16 to 20 abrogates or derogates from any right, privilege or obligation with respect to the English and French languages, or either of them, that exists or is continued by virtue of any other provision of the Constitution of Canada. (90)

Rights and privileges preserved 22. Nothing in sections 16 to 20 abrogates or derogates from any legal or customary right or privilege acquired or enjoyed either before or after the coming into force of this Charter with respect to any language that is not English or French.

Minority Language Educational Rights

Language of instruction 23. (1) Citizens of Canada

(a) whose first language learned and still understood is that of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province in which they reside, or

( who have received their primary school instruction in Canada in English or French and reside in a province where the language in which they received that instruction is the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province,

have the right to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in that language in that province. (91)

Continuity of language instruction (2) Citizens of Canada of whom any child has received or is receiving primary or secondary school instruction in English or French in Canada, have the right to have all their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in the same language.

Application where numbers warrant (3) The right of citizens of Canada under subsections (1) and (2) to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of a province

(a) applies wherever in the province the number of children of citizens who have such a right is sufficient to warrant the provision to them out of public funds of minority language instruction; and

( includes, where the number of those children so warrants, the right to have them receive that instruction in minority language educational facilities provided out of public funds.

Enforcement

Enforcement of guaranteed rights and freedoms 24. (1) Anyone whose rights or freedoms, as guaranteed by this Charter, have been infringed or denied may apply to a court of competent jurisdiction to obtain such remedy as the court considers appropriate and just in the circumstances.

Seeing I have the right to apply for enforcement, maybe I should launch an action in the courts for a bilingual Trans-Canda Highway in BC, at least to start with.

[Slavik44]

No one is forcing anything down anyone's throat, just like no one is forcing anyone to move to Canada, with its two official languages.

When one attends school one takes a variety of subjects and in Canada we need to be teaching both languages from kindergarten up. As a matter of fact we need a bilingual school system - it's long overdue.

Why would any parent not want their child to learn both official languages? I can't imagine any parent wanting to deprive their child of the best future possibile in Canda, and that requires learning both official languages. You learn math, physics, biology, writing, spelling, at school. Do you consider those subjects being forced down your throat. There has to be some minimum standards and French has to one of them across Canada.

Question: Have we always had two official languages, or is this a relative recent situation?

I don't think many parents care MS, I belive most politically apathectic parents really do not care, and do not belive their is a value to it. now was Math shoved down my throat, yes, but in everday situations I do often use what i ahve learned perhaps not what was taught in grade 10,11, and 12, but in grade 9,10,11,12 I had a choice as to wether or not I took that particular math course, so i shoved it down my own throat. As for Science, it was enough to provide me with a basic introduction to the sciences, and again after that I decided to shove chemistry and geology down my own throat, Again Englsih there was less choice, but in all honesty I could have chosen to take remedial English if I wanted to take basic writing, the same can be said for every subject in school I was provided with a basic introduction and allowed then to choose what I learned except one. French it started in grade 5 and went on untill grade 11. I never used French outside of the classroom and have never truly used French in my life, other then to pass coruses, there were no French culture classes that I coudl take instead of French laguage, there were no French politics classes i coudl take instead of French Langauge, there were no Quebec/canada Relations i coudl take instead of French Laguage, there were no Quebec history classes I could take instead of French Language. all other classes had some form of option that allowed me to choose what I shoved down my throat, French did not. so to answer you question, yes French was the only subject in School that I was forced to force down my throat. If you want me to learn French culture i woudl have jumped at the oppurtunity to take a class that studies the make-up of quebec and French countries aborad I woudl have loved it, i woudl ahv eloved to take a deeper look into French history and the battle on the plains of Abraham, which is possibley one of the most influential battles in world history, but there was no such oppurtunity for choice, and that is wrong, i would ahve loved to ahve courses focusing on quebec and French countries in School to learn about French culture because hoenstly I walked away from french not knowing a thing about french culture.