Parizeau ups the ante

[maplesyrup]

Parizeau proposes radical PQ plan

Fearing separatists can't win a referendum, former Quebec premier Jacques Parizeau wants the Parti Québécois to declare its next election victory will be a vote to leave Canada.

In a thinly veiled attack on current PQ Leader Bernard Landry, whose leadership is under question by many hard-line sovereignists, Parizeau said it's time for the party to review its "step-by-step" approach to separation. He criticized the old-guard's 30-year fixation on a referendum as the only road to forming a new country.

Proposing a radical switch in strategy, Parizeau, 74, says if the PQ runs on a clear mandate to separate and wins a majority, even without 50 per cent of the vote, it would have the same legal and moral force as a referendum.

"In short, the Parti Québécois would run in the next election and ask for the mandate to realize sovereignty," Parizeau said.

"If (the PQ) wins, it will begin to prepare for (independence) by proclaiming a provisional constitution in accordance with which, among other measures, a Quebec citizenship would be instituted and a constitutional court would be created."

Parizeau, who was PQ premier during the 1995 referendum, believes this approach gets around the federal government's Clarity Act, which would subject a future referendum to Supreme Court of Canada oversight.

This may provide the New Democrats with the opportunity they have been looking for in Quebec.

[Big Blue Machine]

That's even more silly than the soverignty referendums

[maplesyrup]

This is big, really big, and I agree with Parizeau. The PQ's goal is sovereignty. Lat's call a spade a spade. And finally this will will provide an opening for a left-of-centre federalist provincial party in Quebec.

Oh, now this is interesting

[Bakunin]

Parizeau wrote a letter who was published in the media.

When i heard of it and that they said he was for an "election référendaire" i was against the idea but when i read his article wich is not bad at all, i found it pretty interesting.

Since the article dont say exactly what he said here is what he proposed.

If the pq get elected, it will

"prepare for (independence) by proclaiming a provisional constitution in accordance with which, among other measures, a Quebec citizenship would be instituted and a constitutional court would be created."

then there will be a referendum on the constitution.

from his letter:

"En somme, le Parti Québécois se présenterait aux prochaines élections en demandant le mandat de réaliser la souveraineté. S'il gagne, il commence à la préparer en promulguant une Constitution provisoire en vertu de laquelle, entre autres dispositions, une citoyenneté québécoise est instituée et une Cour constitutionnelle est créée. Le gouvernement met en place l'appareil législatif et administratif pour réaliser la souveraineté. Un projet de Constitution permanente est soumis à un référendum qui devient en quelque sorte l'acte de naissance du nouveau pays. "

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This is different then another movement of the radical sovregnist who want that if the election is won by the pq even if he dont receive 50%+1, then quebec become sovregn.

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I like the idea of parizeau in the way that evrything is more clear. When we vote yes on a referendum we would know what we are voting for. It would give the chance to other provincial party to participate in the project. In fact its more secure than voting yes then the government has the right to do whatever he want.

[maplesyrup]

Bakunin.......we have had enough muddying the waters and that is why the Clarity Act exists although I for one, do not support it.

What Parizeau is suggesting is that a PQ victory in the next Quebec election is sovereignty for Quebec.

[Bakunin]

maplesyrup, in quebec the left is 99,9% sovregnist. the right party "ADQ", are liberal who where with the pq in 1995 for sovregnty.

The federalist are mostly liberals, immigrants and english speakers. they are center-right.

The federal npd supporter are mostly sovregnist, thats why they are stuck between voting for bloc and npd.

[maplesyrup]

Bakunin......99.9% of the left supports the PQ (sovereignty) in Quebec politics because there in no left-of-centre federalist provincial party in Quebec. The PQ is the only game in town. Personally I could care less if Quebec separates or not, it is not going anywhere. It will be read as a major failure for Canada's promotion of tolerance though, around the world, and that would be a tragedy in my opinion.

Only when that PQ bearhold is broken in Quebec, by the NDP or whoever, will Canada as a whole be able to progress.

[Cartman]

Wait 'til my buddy Ralph reads this. :angry:

[maplesyrup]

This whole scenario is getting ridiculous and is a valid reason for considering abolishing the provinces.

I'm surprised Gordo in BC has not jumped onto this insanity, as he has jumped onto every other stupid strategy going in this country.

[Bakunin]

Bakunin.......we have had enough muddying the waters and that is why the Clarity Act exists although I for one, do not support it.

What Parizeau is suggesting is that a PQ victory in the next Quebec election is sovereignty for Quebec.

There is a movement that want that if the pq win, the quebec become sovreign wich is not popular. I myself am hardly against.

Here is a part of the parizeau letter, practice your french, i dont want to translate. He clearly specifie that the referendum is the final act to quebec sovrengty instead of the first act. like the 1980-1995 referendums.

En somme, le Parti Québécois se présenterait aux prochaines élections en demandant le mandat de réaliser la souveraineté. S'il gagne, il commence à la préparer en promulguant une Constitution provisoire en vertu de laquelle, entre autres dispositions, une citoyenneté québécoise est instituée et une Cour constitutionnelle est créée. Le gouvernement met en place l'appareil législatif et administratif pour réaliser la souveraineté. Un projet de Constitution permanente est soumis à un référendum qui devient en quelque sorte l'acte de naissance du nouveau pays.

Faut-il aussi préparer une sorte de programme de " bon gouvernement " en attendant que Godot arrive? On l'a cru longtemps au Parti Québécois. Entre l'arrivée au pouvoir et la réalisation de l'indépendance, on a toujours voulu convaincre l'opinion publique que l'on assurerait " un bon gouvernement provincial " et qu'il fallait une trentaine de mesures, une centaine de pages, des flots de discours pour montrer à quel point avant d'être indépendant, on serait sérieux. Peut-être est-il temps d'arrêter cela. Nous avons été au pouvoir dix-huit ans au cours des vingt-huit dernières années. Nous ne devrions plus avoir à convaincre qui que ce soit de notre capacité à gouverner. Que l'on puisse activement préparer l'indépendance du Québec tout en gérant correctement l'économie; l'année 1995 en témoigne. En pleine campagne référendaire, réduire le déficit budgétaire de 2 milliards de dollars, renouveler toutes les conventions collectives du secteur public pour trois ans, à un coût total de cinq pour cent, sans crise, sans grève et en profiter, en passant, pour relancer les investissements et réorganiser la formation professionnelle qui s'effondrait, cela devrait faire comprendre que la " Province de Québec ", on sait comment la gérer, et que les efforts doivent être appliqués à la préparation de l'organisation, de la gestion et des objectifs d'un pays indépendant.

Cela veut dire, cependant, qu'entre la date de l'élection et celle du référendum sur la Constitution, il ne faut pas que trop de temps s'écoule; autrement, comme d'habitude, les questions que posent la gestion de la " province " vont se mettre à envahir les préoccupations, à mobiliser les esprits, et à distraire les enthousiasmes.

[August1991]

Parizeau, in endorsing Laplante's suggestion, is returning the PQ to its pre-Claude Morin, 1974 policy. (The PQ lost in 1970 and 1973, running under the policy that an election win would be a mandate for sovereignty.)

The issue here is what happens if the PQ wins a majority in the National Assembly but only gets, say, 47% of the popular vote? According to Parizeau/Laplante, the new government would write a new Quebec constitution, determine citizenship and then perhaps attempt to negotiate international associations.

IMV, a critical feature would be non-payment of taxes to the federal government. For example, the Quebec government at present deducts from all Quebec civil servants (including teachers and son on) federal income taxes which are credited to the federal revenue agency. What would happen if the Quebec government stopped doing this?

Landry has clearly stated he doesn't agree with this proposal. He said a majority on a clear question is a "question of dignity".

Parizeau's article raises the valid point that the PQ cannot win a referendum in current circumstances. (The federal government and English Canada will not respect the referendum rules.)

Bakunin is right to say that the NDP will go nowhere in Quebec. In fact, the national question so predominates in Quebec that there is in fact no ideological debate. (This disease has infected Canadian federal politics too and explains the June election results. People vote Liberal to "save" Canada.)

The PQ may well win the next provincial election. Under Laplante's proposal, we would be in a royal mess of brinkmanship strategy.

[maplesyrup]

Wasn't Morin supposed to have been a federalist mole?

And even if Quebec ever did get majority support for separation what about Bill Shaw and the Eleventh province movement?

[maplesyrup]

Quotations

"Si le Canada est divisible, le Quebec doit être divisible aussi"

Pierre Elliot Trudeau

Former Prime Minister.

[maplesyrup]

Le mouvement partitionniste

You can get this page translated by gooling it if you are unable to read French.

The reality is that I do not think there will ever be a separate Quebec.

The notion of dividing up Quebec riles separatists, not francophones

[takeanumber]

Parizeau has his history mixed up.

When lawmakers made the decision to enter confederation, they actually consulted their constiuents, and party leaders wern't nearly as powerful as they are today.

A referendum is needed to break up the country.

[maplesyrup]

How many kicks at the can are we supposed to put up with here concerning the breaking up of our country?

Infighting Arises Among Quebec Separatists

But critics say the federal government would strongly oppose separation no matter how it was declared

What the hell does this mean that the federal government would strongly oppose?

[maplesyrup]

Parizeau sets cat among pigeons

Right now, Parizeau's proposal of a one-step course to sovereignty ensures that the sovereignist movement will spend the next year embroiled in a heated, divisive debate over its strategy. For the PQ is home to a vocal constituency whose place within the party is disproportionately high relative to its influence within Quebec society at large.

Canada is going to half to somehow put a stop to this nonsense.

[Guest eureka]

I would suggest that it is time that Canada did put a stop to the nonsense: that it is time to say that there will be no separation and no more truck with separatists. The only reason that it wa not done in the past was the fear of FLQ type behaviour. Levesque encouraged those fears with his publicly expressed "fears" of social unrest and violence if the first referendum was not won.

Separation dependent on an election result is not a possibility. It is not a legal possibility in domestic or international law and would have no support in the international community. Parizeau's efforts will destroy the "sovereignist" movement just as it seems to be regaining some steam. From that aspect, I welcome this psychotic English-haters new outburst.

The letter from Lionel Albert raises an interesting memory

for me. The refernce Albert makes to the Francophone vice president of CN does not follow that man. He, the name was Gaudet, or something similar, left CN to become the first head of the French Language Office - the language police; the Quebec Gestapo.

[maplesyrup]

Just when you think sovereignty is dead

The separatists have already had two kicks at the can, one to many as far as I am concerned.

Unfortunately now partition is going to have to raise its ugly head,and will be front and centre in any future separation campaigns, as Canada will have no alternative this time, I'm afraid.

Unless a Quebec left-of-centre federalist party appears on the scene, that is.

[Bakunin]

the problem with the idea of partitionning is that quebec federalist dont want partition.

[maplesyrup]

The reality is that the federal government would have no choice but to enforce partition.

And I think it is time to really discuss this issue so that Quebeckers know what the deal is.

As Trudeau said: If Canada is divisible, so is Quebec!

[seabee]

And the federal government would also partition New-Brunswick so that its francophone Acadian minority would be added to partitioned Québec. If Québec is divisible so are....

And there is this three square-block in Baconsfield which is mostly francophone which then would have to be partitioned off, too, except for those two houses that.....

And then, there is this person who wanted to vote one way with his head, but the other with his heart. Off to the partitioning block we go.

[maplesyrup]

Article

I think he has a point.

What percentage of separatists think they can never win a referendum?

[Guest eureka]

One further absurdity is that elections are about social and economic issues. That cannot be combined with a "sovereignty" plamk in the platform.

It is just too silly an idea for contemplation. However, I agree with MS that the partition issue should be brought into the light. These chauvinists need to be brought face to face with reality. Parizeau has always been demented: he now seems to be under the influence of dementia.

[Slavik44]

And the federal government would also partition New-Brunswick so that its francophone Acadian minority would be added to partitioned Québec. If Québec is divisible so are....

And there is this three square-block in Baconsfield which is mostly francophone which then would have to be partitioned off, too, except for those two houses that.....

And then, there is this person who wanted to vote one way with his head, but the other with his heart. Off to the partitioning block we go.

unfortunantley in your overzealousness to make a point you forgot that partitioning would allow people who live in a pro-federalist Area to stay in canada, it is extremly ignorant of yourself to assume that just because those three square blocks in Baconsfield speak french they want to seperate.