Murderer kills 90 injures 200 more

[Canuckistani]

Like Gaza and Sinai?

Not sure what your question means?

[DogOnPorch]

Not sure what your question means?

Well, you say the Israelis are grabbing land...go look on a map...read a bit about the history and tell me WHY I said that. Or do you not know enough to comment?

[Canuckistani]

Well, you say the Israelis are grabbing land...go look on a map...read a bit about the history and tell me WHY I said that. Or do you not know enough to comment?

I guess I don't know enough of your history. I was talking about the pre '67 boundaries, commonly accepted as the basis for the Israeli state. If you're dragging in ancient history, want to go back thousands of years, wow would that upset the applecart in places all over the world. And maybe we could dig up a descendant of the Canaanites who the ancient Jews so proudly holocausted to claim it should all belong to him.

[DogOnPorch]

I guess I don't know enough of your history. I was talking about the pre '67 boundaries, commonly accepted as the basis for the Israeli state. If you're dragging in ancient history, want to go back thousands of years, wow would that upset the applecart in places all over the world. And maybe we could dig up a descendant of the Canaanites who the ancient Jews so proudly holocausted to claim it should all belong to him.

If you call 1979-82 and 2005 ancient history...OK. If you start wanting to bring up 'pre-1967 boundries'...whatever that is...you'll need to address the motives of the Grand Mufti. Now...so as we are on the same page: who was the Grand Mufti?

[Canuckistani]

If you call 1979-82 and 2005 ancient history...OK. If you start wanting to bring up 'pre-1967 boundries'...whatever that is...you'll need to address the motives of the Grand Mufti. Now...so as we are on the same page: who was the Grand Mufti?

I have no idea. I have never heard him mentioned before in the media or discussions of this subject. So if you have some insider knowledge not commonly available you should probably share it with the world. But, he doesn't seem to come up in the negotiations or in usual discussions of this subject. Israel has said it is in favor of a Palestinian state. What should the boundaries of that state be, if they keep taking more an more territory? I don't blame Israel for defending itself against repeated attacks from the Arab states, and being paranoid about it's existence. But, if it keeps swallowing up land, we see that it's agenda is also not peace, but greater Israel.

[Signals.Cpl]

I have no idea. I have never heard him mentioned before in the media or discussions of this subject. So if you have some insider knowledge not commonly available you should probably share it with the world. But, he doesn't seem to come up in the negotiations or in usual discussions of this subject. Israel has said it is in favor of a Palestinian state. What should the boundaries of that state be, if they keep taking more an more territory? I don't blame Israel for defending itself against repeated attacks from the Arab states, and being paranoid about it's existence. But, if it keeps swallowing up land, we see that it's agenda is also not peace, but greater Israel.

If the Palestinians keep using the land to attack Israel, Israel is well within their right to occupy that land to protect itself. And the Grand Mufti was brought up in every thread bud started yet never answered or directly addressed by anyone.

[Canuckistani]

If the Palestinians keep using the land to attack Israel, Israel is well within their right to occupy that land to protect itself. And the Grand Mufti was brought up in every thread bud started yet never answered or directly addressed by anyone.

I agree that Israel can use troops to occupy territory from which attacks are launched. That's different than effectively annexing territory by settlers. That's a land grab that invites the attacks. It does not indicate that Israel is actually interested in peace.

[DogOnPorch]

I have no idea. I have never heard him mentioned before in the media or discussions of this subject. So if you have some insider knowledge not commonly available you should probably share it with the world. But, he doesn't seem to come up in the negotiations or in usual discussions of this subject. Israel has said it is in favor of a Palestinian state. What should the boundaries of that state be, if they keep taking more an more territory? I don't blame Israel for defending itself against repeated attacks from the Arab states, and being paranoid about it's existence. But, if it keeps swallowing up land, we see that it's agenda is also not peace, but greater Israel.

The Grand Mufti is a well known historical figure and the father of the Palestinian Cause...Yasser Arafat's uncle. He was also a member of the SS (Schutzstaffel) and one of the key figures in the Holocaust. He raised all-Muslim SS divisions in the Balkans during the War and is known for several atrocities...most notably the rerouting of Hungary's Jews to Poland...and death. I find it interesting that you feel able to tell Israel what to do yet do not know the history of the area/people. Plus, I find it interesting that you'd support a cause but not know the Nazi ideology of its leaders. Once again you claim Israel is 'swallowing up land'...but, you can't comment on Gaza or the Sinai...or give examples of this 'land swallowing', even.

[Canuckistani]

The Grand Mufti is a well known historical figure and the father of the Palestinian Cause...Yasser Arafat's uncle. He was also a member of the SS (Schutzstaffel) and one of the key figures in the Holocaust. He raised all-Muslim SS divisions in the Balkans during the War and is known for several atrocities...most notably the rerouting of Hungary's Jews to Poland...and death. I find it interesting that you feel able to tell Israel what to do yet do not know the history of the area/people. Plus, I find it interesting that you'd support a cause but not know the Nazi ideology of its leaders. Once again you claim Israel is 'swallowing up land'...but, you can't comment on Gaza or the Sinai...or give examples of this 'land swallowing', even.

I have to give you examples of all the settlements outside the '67 borders? Come on.

I favor a two state solution. As does pretty well every body else. You say the Palestinians are driven by Nazi ideology. What exactly is the greater Israel ideology except Lebensraum restated? Even includes mystical justifications for it(God gave us this land). Unfortunatly this ideology is gaining more and more traction within Israeli government. Both sides need to get serious and make peace with what they've got.

[DogOnPorch]

I have to give you examples of all the settlements outside the '67 borders? Come on.

I favor a two state solution. As does pretty well every body else. You say the Palestinians are driven by Nazi ideology. What exactly is the greater Israel ideology except Lebensraum restated? Even includes mystical justifications for it(God gave us this land). Unfortunatly this ideology is gaining more and more traction within Israeli government. Both sides need to get serious and make peace with what they've got.

If you wish to hitch you wagon to those of Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah, that's fine. Just remember the company you're keeping.

[bleeding heart]

I believe that Israel has the right to exist and jews have the right to live, until such a time as the Arabs decide to recognize that fact, Israel is more then justified in using force as a means of protecting themselves.

Hamas launches rocket attacks against Israel and when IDF comes knocking they cry abuse.

I agree completely that Israel has the right to exist--exactly the same as any other country does. I also agree that Israel will have to use force.

Further, I think the Arabs have shared in halting the peace process (shared it with a recalcitrant Israel, and with foreign interests (notably the US and Russia) who have opposed the peace process, even as they claim otherwise in the public square.)

I think suicide terrorism is particularly nasty, and even for those who defend it, it has failed, making it bad strategy, even if one forgets the inherent evils of it.

The problem is that Israel doesn't always have to use force when it does; it doesn't have to continue building the settlements which are one of THE chief obstacles to peace....and it uses violence in a hell of a lot of situations were rockets are not even faintly an issue.

It behaves with profound brutality, and that's simply not helpful...again, even aside from the fact of its inherent evil, it is a failed strategy. So, nothing going for it except producing ill-will and making the conflict more enduring and intractable.

More to the point here, you are presenting a "one-sided argument," which you inform us is terrible and racist when it's an opinion with which you disagree. Further, your stance is an extremist one, and it's a little rich that you blame bud for your extremist stance.

And when the Israelis inform us that we're behaving like lunatics--supposedly on their behalf!--I should think we'd listen, rather than embrace political correctness as a state religion on all debates about the I/P conflict.

[bleeding heart]

You send in settlers to make sure they don't come back once you leave and set up shop once again.

The settlements are stupid; most Israelis oppose them as well.

However, since you "defenders of Israel" care more about North American views of Israel than Israelis' views of Israel...the settlements are in opposition to official Canadian and American policy, also.

[bleeding heart]

If the Palestinians keep using the land to attack Israel, Israel is well within their right to occupy that land to protect itself. And the Grand Mufti was brought up in every thread bud started yet never answered or directly addressed by anyone.

It has been addressed tons of times.

Notably, the unelected and unrepresentative Nazi sympathizer was a long time ago, is not part of the Palestinian project for a state, is not relevant in any way.

Israel's official stance is that the Palestinians should have a state. You don't see them talking about the Mufti, and how peace negotiations amounts to collaboraiton with Nazis.

Like I said, the Israelis are more reasonable on the whole subject than their erstwhile "supporters" hereabouts are..

[DogOnPorch]

The settlements are stupid; most Israelis oppose them as well.

However, since you "defenders of Israel" care more about North American views of Israel than Israelis' views of Israel...the settlements are in opposition to official Canadian and American policy, also.

Easy to say when we haven't had to deal with Arabs in Russian made equipment invading every so often. Nobody can tell us evil Israel supporters why the Arabs deserve a do-over when Germany was not allowed. Plus there's no tears for places like South Viet-Nam, are there? That happened AFTER the much touted 1967 if I recall.

[bleeding heart]

If you wish to hitch you wagon to those of Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah, that's fine. Just remember the company you're keeping.

He's stating agreement with majority opionion...including roughly Israeli opinion, which openly and explicitly supports the notion of a Palestinian state. It's a mainstream view, and has nothing to do with "hitching his wagon" to these groups.

Are you calling the Israelis collaborationists?

[DogOnPorch]

It has been addressed tons of times.

Notably, the unelected and unrepresentative Nazi sympathizer was a long time ago, is not part of the Palestinian project for a state, is not relevant in any way.

Israel's official stance is that the Palestinians should have a state. You don't see them talking about the Mufti, and how peace negotiations amounts to collaboraiton with Nazis.

Like I said, the Israelis are more reasonable on the whole subject than their erstwhile "supporters" hereabouts are..

Oh, so the Mufti is not relevant because YOU say so?

[DogOnPorch]

He's stating agreement with majority opionion...including roughly Israeli opinion, which openly and explicitly supports the notion of a Palestinian state. It's a mainstream view, and has nothing to do with "hitching his wagon" to these groups.

Are you calling the Israelis collaborationists?

Give Hamas a big hug when you see them next.

[bleeding heart]

Easy to say when we haven't had to deal with Arabs in Russian made equipment invading every so often. Nobody can tell us evil Israel supporters why the Arabs deserve a do-over when Germany was not allowed. Plus there's no tears for places like South Viet-Nam, are there? That happened AFTER the much touted 1967 if I recall.

What are you talking about?

The official Israeli stance is that the Palestinians should have a state...and that the settlements should end.

Your argument is with the Israelis.

[Guest Peeves]

I agree that Israel can use troops to occupy territory from which attacks are launched. That's different than effectively annexing territory by settlers. That's a land grab that invites the attacks. It does not indicate that Israel is actually interested in peace.

Nice of you. Actually unless we are sitting in the region we have little expertise in the matter, however, some things are written in stone.

A country may certainly defend itself and it's citizens from attack.

IF that requires walls or counter attack or security programs one should expect such to be put in place.

As for Israel NOT wanting peace, that's rather contrary to the facts is it not? Why would Israel want other than peace?

Rather one may ask why would Arabs legitimize the state of Israel by recognizing its existence when their mandate calls for Israel's destruction?

Every move towards peace that calls for recognizing Israel with agreed on borders has been met with more Arab attacks. Any Arab that agrees to Israel's continued existence in the region, will of course be assassinated.

If Israel's existence is denied and thousands of rockets/attacks continue from Hamas and other sects of the region, from Hezbollah and from financed terror from other Arab/Persian countries, how can we dispute Israel's moves to protect itself and secure it's borders and any disputed territories?

Can Israel afford one mistake?

Edited May 27, 2012 by Peeves

[bleeding heart]

Give Hamas a big hug when you see them next.

Give Hamas a big hug when you see them next.

[DogOnPorch]

What are you talking about?

The official Israeli stance is that the Palestinians should have a state...and that the settlements should end.

Your argument is with the Israelis.

Yeah...right.

[DogOnPorch]

Give Hamas a big hug when you see them next.

I don't consort with or support Nazis. You are free to.

[bleeding heart]

I don't consort with or support Nazis. You are free to.

I don't like the Nazis either.

However, in this bizarre black and white world of debates on Israel, anyone who disagrees with official Israeli policy (that there should be a viable Palestinians state) must be consorting with their enemies.

(Though just to clarify, I don't actually think that's true.)

When someone says that Israel sometimes behaves badly, I don't know why you'd think they are supporters of Hamas, or what have you. I can't even imagine how you get there.

Yeah...right.

???

Are you saying that Israeli policy is that there shouldn't be a Palestinian state?

Edited May 27, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Signals.Cpl]

I agree that Israel can use troops to occupy territory from which attacks are launched. That's different than effectively annexing territory by settlers. That's a land grab that invites the attacks. It does not indicate that Israel is actually interested in peace.

And how do you propose the Israelis deal with attacks from palestinian lands? Remove the palestinians leave and have to come back in a few years? It seems that it is a reoccurring theme that Palestinians and arabs in general do something and then complain about the consequences. IF you launch attacks from a piece of land you lose said piece of land for the duration of the conflict. You don't want to lose your land? Don't launch attacks from there.

[Signals.Cpl]

I agree completely that Israel has the right to exist--exactly the same as any other country does. I also agree that Israel will have to use force.

Further, I think the Arabs have shared in halting the peace process (shared it with a recalcitrant Israel, and with foreign interests (notably the US and Russia) who have opposed the peace process, even as they claim otherwise in the public square.)

I think suicide terrorism is particularly nasty, and even for those who defend it, it has failed, making it bad strategy, even if one forgets the inherent evils of it.

I think that the peace process is stalled most of all by many arabs refusing to recognize the right of Israel and its people to exist.

The problem is that Israel doesn't always have to use force when it does; it doesn't have to continue building the settlements which are one of THE chief obstacles to peace....and it uses violence in a hell of a lot of situations were rockets are not even faintly an issue.

It behaves with profound brutality, and that's simply not helpful...again, even aside from the fact of its inherent evil, it is a failed strategy. So, nothing going for it except producing ill-will and making the conflict more enduring and intractable.

Think about it, I punch you, and you punch me back... this goes back and forth for a long time and then once in a while I just flinch and you punch me...

More to the point here, you are presenting a "one-sided argument," which you inform us is terrible and racist when it's an opinion with which you disagree. Further, your stance is an extremist one, and it's a little rich that you blame bud for your extremist stance.

Please inform me how I did this? I presented the other side, I just think that the Arabs are just as responsible for the whole mess as the jews if not more so. Saying one side is 100% right and the other is 100% wrong is stupid. I never claimed the Israelis were innocent or right all the time, but he claims that the root of the problem is israel which is wrong.

And when the Israelis inform us that we're behaving like lunatics--supposedly on their behalf!--I should think we'd listen, rather than embrace political correctness as a state religion on all debates about the I/P conflict.

I don't follow.