Protests, police provocateurs, masks, etc

[Signals.Cpl]

Of course it is not a good tactic. The best tool is prevention, and mixing in with the crowd to incite violence is not what a 'peace officer' should be doing. Police are essentially peace officers correct? Trying to get people to riot is not what I call a tactic of prevention.

This is going to be a crappy analogy, but hang on here ..... if I walk into a theater and get someone else to scream FIRE, who is really responsible? Let's say the first person refuses and I go on until I find one that will. Who is really to blame here?

Destroying property means someone has to pay for it, guess who gets stuck with the bill for the damages and the bill for the services rendered by the police....

Tell me good sir, how would you suggest the police prevent this without getting officers undercover?

[GostHacked]

There's no record of what the police were doing to get arrested,

There is a reason why there would be no record. Can't have the other cops knowing what the undercover cops are doing. Would blow their cover. But looks like it's blown in retrospect anyways.

1 - If the cops manage to get other people to riot, is that a good thing?

2 - Why would the cops create their own problem by using this tactic?

3 - The undercover cops put their other police brothers in danger by trying to get the crowd to start some violence.

It's a deplorable tactic.

but whatever it was, it would be a fact that they had no intent to commit violence.

Sure, and the Montebello cops (akak agent provocateurs) did not wear bandanas or carry rocks in their gloved hand. Right, they were not there to incite violence, they were not there to egg others on into committing violence.

Can't say the same about the others who were arrested. So really, there's not two sets of rules as much as there is a difference of possible intent, and that's the main issue.

There are two sets of rules here. The undercover cops, their job was to get people to riot. No matter if the people started to riot or not.

He picked the location. That's it. That's what he's responsible for.

He should have picked a better location. He is the leader of this country, and he is ultimately responsible for the summit. It's like Obama shutting down Chicago for the NATO summit but not taking responsibility for holding it there.

It doesn't help that the RCMP didn't keep good records about the incident(s), but evidently "kettling" is legal, as much as I personally disagree with it. I see nothing wrong with cops going undercover in crowds, however.

Hmmm I wonder why they would not have kept 'records' of the events. Because they know their records would not match that of what has been documented through many cameras, and that content is available online in many places. The video does not lie. We know what happens to companies that don't keep good records.

I don't see a problem with them undercover cops in crowds. I do have a problem with them trying to incite violence where there would not have been violence in the first place.

[GostHacked]

Tell me good sir, how would you suggest the police prevent this without getting officers undercover?

Undercover is not the issue. The tactics used while undercover to incite others into violence. THAT is what I have a problem with.

[madmax]

Hi g_bambino - what type of behavior in a crowd should be considered inciting violence ?

Do you consider carrying a rock and wearing a mask to be grounds for arrest for inciting violence ?

Funny you mention mask and rock.

I just watched a video where 3 Police Officers are trying to stir up the pot. They are wearing masks and carrying rocks, but are "Undercover". They are the only ones seen with rocks and are trying to provoke a police line....

A Person intervenes, tells them to take off and stop trying to create a scene during a peaceful protest... then after much dialogue... the person realizes they are cops.... and tries to pull off their masks...and starts calling them cops..

Just feet away from the police line with rocks in hand, still being told to put down the rocks... they continue to try to assault the police line.. not a single officer breaks ranks... as soon as the undercovers realize the jig is up... all three casually walk through the police line....

And that was it.. not riot, no incident...

But imagine if they had succeeded...

IF you call that success???

[Guest American Woman]

I just watched a video where 3 Police Officers are trying to stir up the pot. They are wearing masks and carrying rocks, but are "Undercover". They are the only ones seen with rocks and are trying to provoke a police line....

Where can this video be seen?

[Signals.Cpl]

Undercover is not the issue. The tactics used while undercover to incite others into violence. THAT is what I have a problem with.

Then answer the question, how would the police prevent this? The majority of protestors went with the idea of a peaceful protest, while the minority went with violent intent. What the police tried to do was get the violent group going in a controlled environment where they can control the outcome.

Police throw the bait, rioters take the bait and police officers take them down=Preventative

Police wait until riot starts and it could start in a location with little to no police presence and then taking down the rioters would cause multiple injuries.=Reacting

Its essentiality vaccines. You either get the vaccine or wait for the decease.

[Guest American Woman]

There is a reason why there would be no record. Can't have the other cops knowing what the undercover cops are doing. Would blow their cover. But looks like it's blown in retrospect anyways.

1 - If the cops manage to get other people to riot, is that a good thing?

Where does is say that they did? - that they were responsible for any rioting?

2 - Why would the cops create their own problem by using this tactic?

I've seen nothing in the link to suggest that they were trying to get people to riot. Could you point it out for me?

3 - The undercover cops put their other police brothers in danger by trying to get the crowd to start some violence.

Again, I've seen nothing to suggest that they did try to get the crowd to start some violence.

Sure, and the Montebello cops (akak agent provocateurs) did not wear bandanas or carry rocks in their gloved hand. Right, they were not there to incite violence, they were not there to egg others on into committing violence.

Again, I've obviously missed something. The account that I read is about the kettling of protesters. But simply wearing a bandana or carrying a rock doesn't incite violence. If I saw someone wearing a bandana and carrying a rock I wouldn't feel the urge to be violent myself.

There are two sets of rules here. The undercover cops, their job was to get people to riot. No matter if the people started to riot or not.

I'll wait for a source that confirms that the cops' job was to get people to riot before commenting further.

He should have picked a better location. He is the leader of this country, and he is ultimately responsible for the summit. It's like Obama shutting down Chicago for the NATO summit but not taking responsibility for holding it there.

A better location than Toronto? And of course he's responsible for holding it there - that doesn't mean he's responsible for everything that happened there.

Hmmm I wonder why they would not have kept 'records' of the events. Because they know their records would not match that of what has been documented through many cameras, and that content is available online in many places. The video does not lie.

Oh, videos can very much "lie."

We know what happens to companies that don't keep good records.

As far as I can see, the RCMP was criticized for not keeping good records. It sounds as if they intend to handle things differently in the future.

I don't see a problem with them undercover cops in crowds. I do have a problem with them trying to incite violence where there would not have been violence in the first place.

Again, I would appreciate a source that confirms that they were "trying to incite violence."

Edited May 14, 2012 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Then answer the question, how would the police prevent this?

By not trying to start a riot in the first place. Call me crazy. but if I want to prevent riots/violence, chances are I should not be trying to get others into starting one.

The majority of protestors went with the idea of a peaceful protest, while the minority went with violent intent. What the police tried to do was get the violent group going in a controlled environment where they can control the outcome.

I agree. There are always going to be a few who will try things. But without someone to get them going, they may not have started the violence in the first place. But when you are in large crowds like that, when lighting the match, things can and do get out of hand very quick.

I do not support the tactic of baiting. There is enough violence that goes on with these protests as it is. But in the end I guess it justifies their salaries by cracking heads with the violence the police actually started. What if you start something that quickly escalates out of control? Who is to blame for that?

Police throw the bait, rioters take the bait and police officers take them down=Preventative

Almost sounds like internet forum trolling. Baiting the people into violence.

Police wait until riot starts and it could start in a location with little to no police presence and then taking down the rioters would cause multiple injuries.=Reacting

And in some cases, the riot was started by the cops. In those cases, they did not wait. Even for the G-20 in Toronto, the violence did happen, and the cops stood by doing NOTHING. The cops were in full view of the cop cars getting trashed.

Its essentiality vaccines. You either get the vaccine or wait for the decease.

I don't think any vaccine will protect me from the walking dead.

But now we have clear precedent where cops DO incite protesters to become violent, and claim it's a valid tactic.

Also g_bambino, I must apologize to you, I can't find anything where you supported the police tactics.

[GostHacked]

Where can this video be seen?

Do a youtube search using some of these words 'agent provocateurs montebello quebec spp protests'

Here is the article where the Montebello police and the Quebec provincial police admit these 3 guys were cops.

Quebec provincial police admitted Thursday that three of their officers disguised themselves as demonstrators during the protest at the North American leaders summit in Montebello, Que.

---

Police came under fire Tuesday, when a video surfaced on YouTube that appeared to show three plainclothes police officers at the protest with bandanas across their faces. One of the men was carrying a rock.

In the video, protest organizers in suits order the men to put the rock down, call them police instigators and try unsuccessfully to unmask them.

The video shows they had a slightly different attitude towards the whole thing. I think those videos have been posted on MLW here several times.

[Signals.Cpl]

By not trying to start a riot in the first place. Call me crazy. but if I want to prevent riots/violence, chances are I should not be trying to get others into starting one.

wishful Thinking

I agree. There are always going to be a few who will try things. But without someone to get them going, they may not have started the violence in the first place. But when you are in large crowds like that, when lighting the match, things can and do get out of hand very quick.

If I said I will kill you, and you know in the past I have carried out my threat would you (a) Call the police and have them bait me in to starting something in a controlled environment thus being safe and secure while a dangerous person is removed from the situation or (b)hope for the best and try not to antagonize me even though I have said I will do it and have the history to prove that I intent to.

I do not support the tactic of baiting. There is enough violence that goes on with these protests as it is. But in the end I guess it justifies their salaries by cracking heads with the violence the police actually started. What if you start something that quickly escalates out of control? Who is to blame for that?

Do you support vaccines? You know the things where a doctor puts a virus in to you to prevent you from getting sick?

Almost sounds like internet forum trolling. Baiting the people into violence.

As long as there is a legitimate belief that someone will cause violence police try to get the violent party to commit to action in once again a controlled environment where it is less dangerous for everyone.

And in some cases, the riot was started by the cops. In those cases, they did not wait. Even for the G-20 in Toronto, the violence did happen, and the cops stood by doing NOTHING. The cops were in full view of the cop cars getting trashed.

Any sources for the places where police started the rioting?

And what would have happened if the police moved in and started calming the situation down? I guarantee you many of the rioters and police would be injured and the police would be accused of brutality in putting the riot down.

I don't think any vaccine will protect me from the walking dead.

But now we have clear precedent where cops DO incite protesters to become violent, and claim it's a valid tactic.

Where is the precedent? Montebello? Different city, Different province, Different situation. I find it hard to believe that the G20 protestors were so innocent seeing as wherever they go violence shortly follows. Either there is a worldwide police conspiracy to discredit the protestors, or there are groups within which use violent means to achieve a goal.

[GostHacked]

Where does is say that they did? - that they were responsible for any rioting?

You do know the difference between a question and a statement , correct?

Again, I've obviously missed something. The account that I read is about the kettling of protesters. But simply wearing a bandana or carrying a rock doesn't incite violence. If I saw someone wearing a bandana and carrying a rock I wouldn't feel the urge to be violent myself.

Well a mask and rock don't exactly induce images of peace and tranquility in my brain.

I'll wait for a source that confirms that the cops' job was to get people to riot before commenting further.

What kind of source would you accept that would validate? Expecting a scathing report from the RCMP or Toronto Police regarding their members behavior and tactics?

A better location than Toronto? And of course he's responsible for holding it there - that doesn't mean he's responsible for everything that happened there.

Oh, videos can very much "lie."

No video cannot lie. Video documents what happens. Leave it to the human to interpret (for right or wrong) what is taking place in the video.

As far as I can see, the RCMP was criticized for not keeping good records. It sounds as if they intend to handle things differently in the future.

Ahahahaahaha, yeah right. I got some swampland in Florida for you!! Next time they won't keep any records at all.

Again, I would appreciate a source that confirms that they were "trying to incite violence."

That is something we are still looking for. But you are not going to get that kind of confirmation from the police or RCMP. They take care of their own.

[Guest American Woman]

Do a youtube search using some of these words 'agent provocateurs montebello quebec spp protests'

I did. And I see people accusing them of trying to start a riot, but I see no proof that they were.

Here is the article where the Montebello police and the Quebec provincial police admit these 3 guys were cops.

Quebec provincial police admitted Thursday that three of their officers disguised themselves as demonstrators during the protest at the North American leaders summit in Montebello, Que.

---

Police came under fire Tuesday, when a video surfaced on YouTube that appeared to show three plainclothes police officers at the protest with bandanas across their faces. One of the men was carrying a rock.

In the video, protest organizers in suits order the men to put the rock down, call them police instigators and try unsuccessfully to unmask them.

Nothing that quote says that the police tried to incite violence or that they started a riot. It simply says that there were police disguised as demonstrators and that they wore bandanas and one was carrying a rock. There is nothing there to suggest anything other than undercover cops within the crowd of protesters. Fact is, the protest organizers can't "order" anyone to do anything; they were not helping the situation. They should have immediately summoned the police and let the police handle it.

The video shows they had a slightly different attitude towards the whole thing. I think those videos have been posted on MLW here several times.

I imagine that there are quite a few videos out there and I don't have the time or the desire to watch all of them, but from what I have seen, there's nothing to suggest anything other than police officers undercover as protesters, which is something altogether different from inciting violence, trying to get the crowd to start some violence, and your claim that it was their job to get people to riot.

[Guest American Woman]

You do know the difference between a question and a statement , correct?

So why are you asking a question about something that never happened, as if it did? And why did you go on claiming, in statements, that it did?

I guess I'm going to have to learn the difference between posts stating facts - and yours.

Well a mask and rock don't exactly induce images of peace and tranquility in my brain.

Which is quite different from what was said, eh? So I'll ask you this - does anything and everything that doesn't induce images of peace and tranquility in your brain incite you to violence??

What kind of source would you accept that would validate? Expecting a scathing report from the RCMP or Toronto Police regarding their members behavior and tactics?

I've seen nothing but accusations from the public, which mean nothing to me.

No video cannot lie. Video documents what happens. Leave it to the human to interpret (for right or wrong) what is taking place in the video.

Video can very much lie - simply by selectively videoing or by giving false narrative to the video, to mention just a couple of ways.

Ahahahaahaha, yeah right. I got some swampland in Florida for you!! Next time they won't keep any records at all.

Wow. You sure shot my beliefs down, eh?

That is something we are still looking for. But you are not going to get that kind of confirmation from the police or RCMP. They take care of their own.

Or perhaps you aren't going to find it because it's not true - even as you state it as if it were fact.

[jacee]

That sounds like an exact description of police walking around in bandanas, carrying rocks, egging people to commit violence.

And for that, under the new law, anyone of us gets 10 years or more.

And police get dragged behind the line and patted on the back. Good little terrorist!

I agree with the court that this isn't a good use of our government's resources, to coax people into committing crimes and destroying property.

Government resources = our tax money.

We pay police to protect us, and they create riots and beat us up and we pay them to do it and we pay their damages.

Here's an idea.

We're having a protest from now til whenever, wherever we want to on our (public) land. Street theatre, costumes, civil disobedience.

We'll call them if we need them.

911 ... hello ... there's an old lady in a fatheadHarper mask peeing her pants in the middle of the street and she can't get up. Need assistance.

That should keep them away.

Edited May 14, 2012 by jacee

[Signals.Cpl]

Government resources = our tax money.

We pay police to protect us, and they create riots and beat us up and we pay them to do it and we pay their damages.

Here's an idea.

We're having a protest from now til whenever, wherever we want to on our (public) land. Street theatre, costumes, civil disobedience.

We'll call them if we need them.

911 ... hello ... there's an old lady in a fatheadHarper mask peeing her pants in the middle of the street and she can't get up. Need assistance.

That should keep them away.

Seriously do you even think when you post?

[Guest American Woman]

Seriously do you even think when you post?

Uh oh, now she's going to have to put you on ignore! Along with half of the other posters on this board. Or perhaps that's an advantage to being American.

[The_Squid]

Police provocateurs trying to incite other portesters. Then the undercover cops retreat behind the riot police and pretend to get arrested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDbJlWnW-VA

@ about 2:25 is when the vocal peaceful protester realizes that these masked rioters with rocks are actually cops.

Whoever ordered these cops to incite a riot should be fired.

[Signals.Cpl]

Police provocateurs trying to incite other portesters. Then the undercover cops retreat behind the riot police and pretend to get arrested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDbJlWnW-VA

@ about 2:25 is when the vocal peaceful protester realizes that these masked rioters with rocks are actually cops.

Whoever ordered these cops to incite a riot should be fired.

Is it just me or do you guys bring out only one video every time there is an argument about this as your proof? Ive said it before in a different thread, Quebec Police actions do not reflect on OPP, RCMP,TPS,LAPD,NYPD,OPS or any other police force in the world... Using Montebello as the only source is like saying all married white guys will cheat because 1 married white guy in Australia cheated on his wife. Good luck convincing my girlfriend I cheated because Jimmy from Greece Cheated on his girlfriend.

[Topaz]

I wonder if the KKK will still have their protest walks?

[The_Squid]

Is it just me or do you guys bring out only one video every time there is an argument about this as your proof? Ive said it before in a different thread, Quebec Police actions do not reflect on OPP, RCMP,TPS,LAPD,NYPD,OPS or any other police force in the world... Using Montebello as the only source is like saying all married white guys will cheat because 1 married white guy in Australia cheated on his wife. Good luck convincing my girlfriend I cheated because Jimmy from Greece Cheated on his girlfriend.

In this instance they got caught. Obviously, since these goons were caught, it happens in Canada!! What part of the term "evidence" do you not understand? LOL

[Guest American Woman]

Police provocateurs trying to incite other portesters. Then the undercover cops retreat behind the riot police and pretend to get arrested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDbJlWnW-VA

@ about 2:25 is when the vocal peaceful protester realizes that these masked rioters with rocks are actually cops.

Whoever ordered these cops to incite a riot should be fired.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see, and I've seen this video before, CEP President Dave Coles, the "peaceful protester," puts his hands on them first. As I said previously, he should have summoned the police, not taken matters in his own hands - especially since he was putting his hands on them.

[Signals.Cpl]

In this instance they got caught. Obviously, since these goons were caught, it happens in Canada!! What part of the term "evidence" do you not understand? LOL

No it happens in Quebec, it does not mean it happens in Canada.Cops in Quebec City speak French, does every cop in Canada speak french?

[The_Squid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see, and I've seen this video before, CEP President Dave Coles, the "peaceful protester," puts his hands on them first. As I said previously, he should have summoned the police, not taken matters in his own hands - especially since he was putting his hands on them.

At first, he was attempting to disarm someone who was starting a riot. This is completely justified! He thought these guys were going to attack property or the cops and he was attempting to prevent this. Then they realized that these were cops...

I think it is perfectly justified to attempt to disarm/unmask rioters.

[The_Squid]

No it happens in Quebec, it does not mean it happens in Canada.Cops in Quebec City speak French, does every cop in Canada speak french?

ummmm.... check your atlas. Quebec is in Canada.

[Rick]

I wonder if the KKK will still have their protest walks?

Of course they will.. they'll get the hands off treatment because they're all right wing Conservatives and some, probably post on this board.