Conservatives Closing Kingston Penn

[capricorn]

Maybe so, but there is something odd about the fact the announcement comes as such a surprise to those closely involved in running the facility.

What I find more odd is that those closely involved in running a penal facility that has been in operation for 177 years, would be surprised when someone comes along and decide it's time to shut it down.

[Topaz]

What I find more odd is that those closely involved in running a penal facility that has been in operation for 177 years, would be surprised when someone comes along and decide it's time to shut it down.

I'm not sure if its the CLOSING but rather that the mayor or the prison management wasn't told about it FIRST. The next question I have are the Feds going to download the prisoners to the province?

[August1991]

The Omnibus Crime Bill was just passed. It's impossible to know the effect of a crime bill that just went through a couple weeks ago.

Chantal Hebert says it's about relocating jobs out of non-Conservative ridings. They're getting rid of 1000 spaces and some of the prison expansions are going into Vic Toews own riding, she says.

But that's just a theory, cybercoma, advanced by a CBC panelist:

But one theory put forward by a panellist on CBC The National's At Issue panel is that the decision is political.

"I think, to put it really simply, that they're moving jobs from Liberal or opposition areas to Conservative, good Conservative areas. And they're adding cells, and where those cells are going to be is going to be really interesting," Chantal Hébert said.

CBC

The irony here is that the Conservatives want to close decrepit prisons and build new ones so that prisoners are held decently. And what does the opposition do? The anti-Harperites howl that the Tories are obsessed about crime.

If the Tories didn't spend money on prisons, the anti-Harperites would howl that the Tories mistreat prisoners by leaving them in appalling, over-crowded conditions.

-----

There are some people in English Canada (typically within view of Toronto's CN Tower) who hate Harper and regardless of what the Tories do, the anti-Harperites will claim that the policy is bad for Canada.

This is Team A vs. Team B politics.

At this point, I would include anyone associated with the CBC in the anti-Harperite Team B - and that includes Chantal Hebert. The $110 million cut may benefit taxpayers but someone else will suffer.

----

Last point: For incarceration over 2 years, the federal government is responsible. Harper has a clear idea of the federal government's responsibilities. This is a breath of fresh air in the Canadian confederation and I wonder if pundits in central Canada quite understand what this means.

[cybercoma]

It's not surprising that they're renovating and building new prisons. The Conservatives are nothing more than sock puppets for oil executives, bank executives, military-industrial executives, and prison-industry executives. If people didn't see this coming from a mile away, they just haven't been paying attention. They're going to make the prisons as profitable as possible for the people with their hands up their backside. Step 1: Create mandatory minimums so more people are incarcerated longer. Ensure that these target youth, since it will make it nearly impossible for them to lead a productive life ever again. Step 2: Close down old prisons. Step 3: Give contracts to your friends to build new prisons and renovate newer existing ones in your ridings. Step 4: Transfer prisoners to these prisons, watch them fill up, and see your friends in the industry profit from incarcerations even though crime has been falling.

Bonus Step: Ensure the prisons are in your ridings when you redraw the electoral boundaries. Prisoners count as population in the city if they've been incarcerated longer than 6 months, but their vote counts in the place of their ordinary residence. This means that the population figures will include prisoners in ridings where there are prisons, but they will not be constituents of that riding. If they expand prisons in good Conservative ridings, when the Conservatives go to redraw the boundaries sometime before the next election, those ridings will have padded population figures. Many of the people, however, will not be constituents of that riding. Therefore, the Conservatives will be able to split up the ridings where they have the most support, claiming that it's for population reasons, when many of the people in that riding will be casting special ballots as prisoners for their "place of ordinary residence."

[capricorn]

A minor quibble with your well laid out conspiracy theory. They aren't really "steps", they're more like "phases".

Step 4: Transfer prisoners to these prisons, watch them fill up, and see your friends in the industry profit from incarcerations even though crime has been falling.

I'm shocked that such a thorough analyst as yourself would forget the all important Phase 5. "Collect lucrative kickbacks from friends in the industry."

Bonus Step: Ensure the prisons are in your ridings when you redraw the electoral boundaries.

Since inmates vote Liberal en masse what is the rationale for Conservatives increasing the inmate population in their ridings? If I'm a Conservative supporter in a Conservative riding do I really want more inmates housed in my riding? Not me.

[cybercoma]

Since inmates vote Liberal en masse what is the rationale for Conservatives increasing the inmate population in their ridings? If I'm a Conservative supporter in a Conservative riding do I really want more inmates housed in my riding? Not me.

Inmates don't vote for the ridings of the prisons. They are, however, included in the census if they're incarcerated for longer than 6 months and that will be a factor when the Conservatives redraw the boundaries. Therefore, a bunch of people that don't vote in the riding will be considered as part of the riding's population. This will artificially inflate the population of Conservative ridings when they redraw the electoral boundaries.

Edited April 21, 2012 by cybercoma

[Shady]

Cybercoma needs some serious help. This is now way beyond Harper Derangement Syndrome. Yikes!

[punked]

Inmates don't vote for the ridings of the prisons. They are, however, included in the census if they're incarcerated for longer than 6 months and that will be a factor when the Conservatives redraw the boundaries. Therefore, a bunch of people that don't vote in the riding will be considered as part of the riding's population. This will artificially inflate the population of Conservative ridings when they redraw the electoral boundaries.

That is genius. Wow

[capricorn]

That is genius. Wow

Yes. Lucky for us CC isn't working for the dark side. CC would be a veritable source of dastardly plots sure to result in the demise of our democracy.

[Guest Manny]

Hardly any need for tinfoil on this one. What the CPC is doing is, as some members here might say, repugnable.

[capricorn]

What the CPC is doing is, as some members here might say, repugnable.

As much as I would like to keep murderers and rapists in dungeon like conditions, closing a 177 year old prison that is overly expensive to maintain makes sense.

[Guest Manny]

As much as I would like to keep murderers and rapists in dungeon like conditions, closing a 177 year old prison that is overly expensive to maintain makes sense.

I agree with your logic, but I haven't seen those facts. I have seen the prison though. From the outside, looks fine. Old buildings like that are made differently than the junk they bang together now. Can't imagine they'll build anything like it again.

As for the economic argument, again I haven't seen any facts. I don't trust any politicians, but would be interesting to know what the Warden or the maintenance workers think of this.

[madmax]

As for the economic argument, again I haven't seen any facts. I don't trust any politicians, but would be interesting to know what the Warden or the maintenance workers think of this.

you don't trust Vic Toews?

[capricorn]

I have seen the prison though. From the outside, looks fine.

A fine looking shell says nothing about the conditions inside. Years ago I bought a house that looked A-1 on the surface but ended up with camouflaged rotting walls. Then the basement flooded. In future house purchases, building inspectors become my best friends.

As for the economic argument, again I haven't seen any facts.

I haven't seen a set of numbers on the cost of maintaining and refurbishing KP to keep it functional. Here is what the CSC Review Panel said about aging prisons.

(a) Age of Current Facilities

As the Panel toured a sampling of Canadian penitentiaries, we were impressed with the commitment of staff working in inadequate conditions. Many federal penitentiaries were built for a single homogeneous offender population. The Panel saw penitentiaries built in the 1800s and early 1900s where attempts had been made over the years to adapt them to the current realities. Other penitentiaries built in the mid-1900s reflect the correctional management philosophy of that era but assumed that all inmates could function as a homogenous group. There is even one penitentiary in which the cells lack toilets, so staff must release inmates individually to use the common facilities. (See a listing of federal penitentiaries by Region and Security Level in Appendix A.)

Irving Kulik, Executive Director of the Canadian Criminal Justice Association further describes the problem:

'Patching' has often been done in most existing CSC facilities, while in others some new units were added to the old, thus disrupting operations for years. In the end, few modern, functional and efficient institutions have been built in the last two decades. Old facilities are expensive to maintain and so when other budgetary considerations come into play, maintenance is delayed. Inevitably the organization has a huge collection of decaying buildings incorporating elements of new construction in an inefficient fashion.

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/csc-scc/report-rapport/phscl-infra-eng.aspx#g_cur_fac

I don't trust any politicians, but would be interesting to know what the Warden or the maintenance workers think of this.

I would think the opinion of the warden and maintenance workers would be clouded by the fact their jobs are on the line.

[madmax]

I would think the opinion of the warden and maintenance workers would be clouded by the fact their jobs are on the line.

Who knows...maybe they want to relocate to the Honourable Vic Toews Riding.

This whole...private prisons, crime agenda is looking more like corporate & pork politics combined.

[Guest Manny]

Who knows...maybe they want to relocate to the Honourable Vic Toews Riding.

This whole...private prisons, crime agenda is looking more like corporate & pork politics combined.

This is apparently big business in the US, where private companies are in charge of building and running the prisons there. I wonder if that's going to be the new model for Corrections Canada?

[Guest Manny]

I know. I'm saying Vic Toews is an idiot.

He was probably referring to the expected impact of Bill C-25, which lengthens prisoners stays by eliminating the "two-for-one" credit for time served before sentencing. This should have increased the prison population.

Using the sample year of FY2007-08, the status quo baseline assumption is that

8,618 inmates were admitted to federal sentenced custody and that these

inmates would spend on average 563 days in physical CSC custody, prior to

being released on day/full parole, community supervision, statutory release, etc,

resulting in an average headcount of 13,304 inmates, with 7,036 in community

supervision.

The “Truth in Sentencing Act” would add on an average 159 days to the average

length of stay of inmates in sentenced federal custody or 722 days in total

resulting in an average headcount of 17,058 inmates with 9,021 in community

supervision.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/PBO-DPB/documents/TISA_C-25.pdf

But the Minister did not explain why this increase did not happen. One can assume either the system became enormously more efficient (not likely) or that crime rates continued to drop, for which some evidence does seem to stand.

The unmitigated gall to proceed anyway with their plans to dismantle the prisons and put out their punitive legal reforms, while removing rehab programs is testimony to their commitment to upholding ideology over facts. Idiots, Sir? Evil geniuses would be a better description. The idiots are the Canadian people who gave them the mandate, when it was already clear what they were going to do when they had the minority.