Conservatives Closing Kingston Penn

[madmax]

Two of Canada's federal prisons, including the maximum security Kingston Penitentiary, will be permanently closed, Public Safety Minister Vic Toews announced Thursday.

Built in 1835, Kingston Penitentiary is one of the oldest prisons in continuous use in the world. Located in Kingston, Ont., the facility has four units that can accommodate 421 inmates, but currently houses 346.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/Prisons+closing+Kingston+Laval/6484960/story.html#ixzz1sWiSecYK

http://www.vancouversun.com/Prisons+closing+Kingston+Laval/6484960/story.html

[Guest Manny]

Very interesting article, especially the parts where the government claims that despite making punishments harsher for those who break the law, the prison population has not risen as was expected. It has in fact gone down. This is either due to the notion that judges and prosecutors are reluctant to proceed if they feel that the punishment is too harsh, or simply that violent crime is decreasing. In either case, we don't need mandatory minimums as they don't produce the intended result. Nor are they even necessary.

[cybercoma]

The Omnibus Crime Bill was just passed. It's impossible to know the effect of a crime bill that just went through a couple weeks ago.

Chantal Hebert says it's about relocating jobs out of non-Conservative ridings. They're getting rid of 1000 spaces and some of the prison expansions are going into Vic Toews own riding, she says.

[Radsickle]

I see this as a necessary step towards Harper wasting billions on the private prison industry knocking at Canada's door. It's typical create-a-crisis politics. First, change the laws so more people are in prison for longer times.... still waiting to see stats on C-10 since it's only been weeks.

Then, while critics are waiting to prove basic math, crowd the existing prisons even more by closing a few of them. By the time the stats are out on how C-10 panders to the security industries, Canadians will be clamouring for more prison spaces to alleviate the `inhumane' overcrowding. Along comes Harper with his `private' partners to save the day and build `new' and `improved' prisons. (when money-saving renovations to Kingston and others were all that was necessary.)

Bill C-10 will require new prisons; mandate incarceration for minor, non-violent offences; justify poor treatment of inmates and make their reintegration into society more difficult. Texas and California, among other jurisdictions, have already started down this road before changing course, realizing it cost too much and made their justice system worse. Canada is poised to repeat their mistake.

[cybercoma]

I see this as a necessary step towards Harper wasting billions on the private prison industry knocking at Canada's door. It's typical create-a-crisis politics. First, change the laws so more people are in prison for longer times.... still waiting to see stats on C-10 since it's only been weeks.

Then, while critics are waiting to prove basic math, crowd the existing prisons even more by closing a few of them. By the time the stats are out on how C-10 panders to the security industries, Canadians will be clamouring for more prison spaces to alleviate the `inhumane' overcrowding. Along comes Harper with his `private' partners to save the day and build `new' and `improved' prisons. (when money-saving renovations to Kingston and others were all that was necessary.)

Bill C-10 will require new prisons; mandate incarceration for minor, non-violent offences; justify poor treatment of inmates and make their reintegration into society more difficult. Texas and California, among other jurisdictions, have already started down this road before changing course, realizing it cost too much and made their justice system worse. Canada is poised to repeat their mistake.

Exactly.

[Guest Manny]

The Omnibus Crime Bill was just passed. It's impossible to know the effect of a crime bill that just went through a couple weeks ago.

I know that. Obviously. Point is this statement by the government contradicts their position on the need to get tough on crime.

From the article-

Despite tough new law-and-order legislation many thought would result in a spike in the prison population, Toews argued the projected increase never materialized.

According to recent data from the Correctional Service of Canada, Canada's federal prison population stood at 14,893 at the end of 2011. This is significantly fewer than the 17,189 the government predicted would be locked up by then.

They're not even talking about the omnibus crime bill. I mentioned it in addition to these points, it's even more unnecessary.

[Topaz]

When I first heard this I said what! Then if we remember Khadr is coming home to finish his sentence, which he HAD to say he was quilty to be able to come back to Canada. Anyway, he wants to be in Ontario, but if there's no Fed. prison for him to come home to then I guess there's a very good chance he'll end up in Edmonton's military prison far away from Ontario and Ottawa, then of course I could be wrong but the Tories have had a hard-on for this guy for a long time.

[cybercoma]

I know that. Obviously. Point is this statement by the government contradicts their position on the need to get tough on crime.

I know. I'm saying Vic Toews is an idiot. Edited April 20, 2012 by cybercoma

[Boges]

I thought the CPC was all about opening new prisons not closing them down.

Let's just hope the Feds don't try to transport all those serial killers to their new location in a cargo plane. And if they do let's pray Nick Cage is on the plane.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Conairinternational.jpg/220px-Conairinternational.jpg

[Smallc]

So, do people think that buildings should never go out of use? How is housing people in a nearly 200 year old prison a good thing?

[cybercoma]

So, do people think that buildings should never go out of use? How is housing people in a nearly 200 year old prison a good thing?

Of course not. They've been talking about closing Kingston for years. What they didn't do was talk about replacing Kingston in or near Kingston. They also sold it as a cost-saving measure, when they're going to need to build at least 500 new spaces to offset the closure.

Of course, they're expanding the prisons in Vic Toews riding.

Hebert may have been right about jobs, but I'm more concerned that the Conservatives are yet again importing American-style politics into Canada. Keeping in mind the CPC plans on redrawing the ridings, I'm not sure if this works here or not and I sure as hell hope it doesn't:

Edited April 20, 2012 by cybercoma

[Topaz]

So, do people think that buildings should never go out of use? How is housing people in a nearly 200 year old prison a good thing?

It really doesn't matter where they are housed because its still cost over $100,000 per person, which was pointed out in a senate committee hearing meetings. So the question is how much does it cost to transport them and the maintenance of the new place vs the old. Also you would have to included the cost of EI for those who lose their jobs.

[cybercoma]

Also you would have to included the cost of EI for those who lose their jobs.

Smallc only includes politically expedient costs.

[Guest Manny]

I used to live in Kingston, and I remember how poor the job market is there. The Pen was actually a major employer. Several prisons in that area. The act of moving "most" of the prison guards to work in other facilities is probably just a temporary stop-gap measure. If those other facilities are already operating at a reasonable staffing level, why would they need these extra guards. They will put them on part-time or rotating casual shifts, until public attention goes away, then either downsize them or move them off to other remote locations.

Much as I dislike the concept of a "prison industry", I know that this will hurt Kingston.

[Jack Weber]

So, do people think that buildings should never go out of use? How is housing people in a nearly 200 year old prison a good thing?

Well,there is the fact that place might such a total shitehole that potential incarceration in said shitehole might be deterrent enough for someone about to commit a crime..

Edited April 20, 2012 by Jack Weber

[capricorn]

Well,there is the fact that place might such a total shitehole that potential incarceration in said shitehole might be deterrent enough for someone about to commit a crime..

Not to mention, KP is a dark, dank and inhospitable adobe that is fitting for murderers and rapists.

[cybercoma]

Jesus, the Conservatives are dirtbags. They didn't even inform the union or the mayor of Kingston about this before announcing it. Now they're left scrambling. The mayor says he found out through "social media." That's just ridiculous.

[Smallc]

Smallc only includes politically expedient costs.

Most people aren't going to lose their jobs in this situation.

[cybercoma]

You actually believe that?

[Smallc]

Not to mention, KP is a dark, dank and inhospitable adobe that is fitting for murderers and rapists.

See, I'm not really into such things as this. The place probably needed to be closed.

Jesus, the Conservatives are dirtbags. They didn't even inform the union or the mayor of Kingston about this before announcing it.

Why would they? Seriously, this really isn't a big deal. The prison was under-utilized, and there is, despite what the union says, room in other facilities, some of which are soon to be expanded.

[Smallc]

You actually believe that?

Yes. They have the option to transfer to another facility, and there are generally positions available. Why wouldn't I believe that?

[Jack Weber]

See, I'm not really into such things as this. The place probably needed to be closed

You're missing the point...If the place was so horrible,it's quite concievable that that "horribleness" was probably a deterrent enough..

ie.the worse living conditions prison is,the more likely most people won't do anything that might have them end up there...

[madmax]

Yes. They have the option to transfer to another facility, and there are generally positions available. Why wouldn't I believe that?

I do believe that Vic Toews is smiling.

If what Chantel Hebert says is true... it doesn't surprise me.

[capricorn]

See, I'm not really into such things as this.

What I'm not into is moving murderers and rapists into a more hospitable environment. I console myself that perhaps Correctional Officers will end up with improved working conditions.

The place probably needed to be closed.

The top honcho at Corrections Canada said it's time to shut it down. As a layman in all things penal, I'll take his word for it.

[Guest Manny]

The top honcho at Corrections Canada said it's time to shut it down. As a layman in all things penal, I'll take his word for it.

Maybe so, but there is something odd about the fact the announcement comes as such a surprise to those closely involved in running the facility. Normally there is an extended debate about the maintenance cost vs closing down and building a new one.

Kingston Pen appeared to be in good shape at least on the outside, from what I could tell. It's a big facility made of limestone. Many buildings in Kingston are made of limestone. Seems to be pretty robust material, better than brick. Aside from that you got your steel bars.

Now more than likely, things like electricity and plumbing are getting old, depending on how recently they were overhauled. Other more modern features might not even exist there.

What, no internet?