NDP Horvath's “tax the rich” proposal.

[madmax]

Im FINE with taxing the higher eareners, Im one of them!!!

You are the first I have heard to say this...

BUT!! I am NOT ok with Dalton WASTING my money and funneling towards wastefull programs like all-day-day care simply to funnel more teachers into his "pool of voters". He is WASTING money like a drunken sailer. If there was little or no waste, sure, add to my taxes... NOT NOW! Trim the waste before wasting my additional 2%! Dalton commneting that the money will go towards the defecit is 100% lies.. It will simply assist in funneling ADDITIONAL resources to the teachers unions and Public servants.. Of COARSE he buckled to Horvath,, It was a GODSEND that she positioned this "Tax"

You are not the first to say this..

You should be concerned...its McGuinty after all..

Edited April 26, 2012 by madmax

[Guest Peeves]

And your point is... I have personal experience with Fraud INSIDE the Insurance industry ripping off consumers with ILLEGAL POLICIES. For every scam an Insurance company investigates...there is someone on the inside just as corrupt.

I have seen massive fraud and corruption in numerous companies and numerous executives. Often this leads to the collapse of a viable operation, (unless its a bank) which is another kettle of fish...

Fraud is not something reserved for the poor or those in need.

Guess which one gets more investigation the former or the latter?

And which one could actually reimburse the public more in results...

Above truncated:

I used a broad brush in taring offenders, not the poor, not just those in a specific group. To wit:

However in my life's experience I have found that if a system can be abused it will be by fraud and deceit. Whether that is by doctors, lawyers, politicians, Refugees, immigrants or the hoi polloi.

I have (personally) seen abuse and cheats in Workers Comp, U.I. welfare,Social Assistance,Insurance fraud, and by employers- and by employees and it doesn't stop there.

Those that would deny there's fraud rampant in any or all possible programs and venues

that costs the tax payer a bundle, are simply in denial.

There are examples where more than the current generation are and have been on welfare.

Of course there's white collar fraud as well, did I say that was not so.

Your reply and a couple others use Selective exposure theory in responding.

I maintain ( and there is no dearth of evidence to support my position) that if a program or service may be cheated on or abused, :angry: IT WILL BE

http://www.newser.com/story/104982/fraudsters-steal-42m-from-holocaust-victims-fund.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/9-11-fraudsters-otherwise-known-as-bottom-feeding-634286.html

http://www.insurancefraud.org/workers_comp_scams.htm

Most employers and their workers are very honest. Only a small number scam this coverage for personal profit, but the damage they cause is enormous.

Workers comp fraud is a large crime in America today. Tens of billions of dollars in false claims and unpaid premiums are stolen every year.

Scams are forcing premiums higher — draining business profits and costing honest workers their pay and jobs.

And guess what — you pay higher prices at the cash register. The large costs of fraud get passed onto all consumers.

Bogus claims

Stolen premiums

Crooked doctors

The price you pay

Dumb and dumber

Fight back

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/huge-increase-in-organised-unemploymentbenefit-fraud-1445940.html

NVESTIGATORS reported a big increase in 'premeditated and organised' unemployment benefit fraud yesterday. More than 67,000 people were caught fraudulently claiming unemployment benefit last year, and 100 employers were found colluding with their workers.

Employment Service inspectors revealed a 38.4 per cent increase in prosecutions of individuals and a rise of more than 80 per cent in cases of employer collusion.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Peeves

[Guest Peeves]

The reality as based on your unproveable (at least unproven) personal anecdotes, that "socialists" stubbornly refuse to accept at face value?

The reality of socialists as the NDP, CCF et al repeatedly claiming there is minimal to no cheating by welfare recipients or 'injured workers', or by the poor, but readily willing to blame fraud on the professionals or others.

That's patently untrue and in my experience they're demonstrating selective exposure as a response to my much broader charge.

If I wanted to prove it, I wouldn't bother here. No point trying and naught to gain.

Anyone reading political positions on these things would by now seen the writing on the wall. The system is full of cheats and those in denial.

[bleeding heart]

The reality of socialists as the NDP, CCF et al repeatedly claiming there is minimal to no cheating by welfare recipients or 'injured workers', or by the poor, but readily willing to blame fraud on the professionals or others.

That's patently untrue and in my experience they're demonstrating selective exposure as a response to my much broader charge.

If I wanted to prove it, I wouldn't bother here. No point trying and naught to gain.

Anyone reading political positions on these things would by now seen the writing on the wall. The system is full of cheats and those in denial.

There is no doubt plenty of cheating. But you use this fact to vilify the very notion of social programs, even as you willingly concede that cheats, frauds, and systemic failures stretch through every organization, every policy, every socioeconomic grouping, straight to the top.

But only the social programs designed for those having real financial difficulty are the ones you favour targeting with closure or increased austerity.

If, as you say, cheating is inherent to all strata of society--and it is, up to and including corporations and socialized profit-making enterprises such as the military--why target only the weakest of society?

It's this top-down class warfare, this bald elitism, with which many are taking issue.

Edited April 27, 2012 by bleeding heart

[jacee]

There is no doubt plenty of cheating. But you use this fact to vilify the very notion of social programs, even as you willingly concede that cheats, frauds, and systemic failures stretch through every organization, every policy, every socioeconomic grouping, straight to the top.

But only the social programs designed for those having real financial difficulty are the ones you favour targeting with closure or increased austerity.

If, as you say, cheating is inherent to all strata of society--and it is, up to and including corporations and socialized profit-making enterprises such as the military--why target only the weakest of society?

It's this top-down class warfare, this bald elitism, with which many are taking issue.

Really well said, bh.

It's what happens every time the topic is supposed to be a fairer contribution from the richest among us: The rich and their 'protectors' attack the poor.

I think the education of the rich is very incomplete. They need to do some public service to become better educated about the people they crap on so disrespectfully.

I saw a tv program about several single Moms who got social assistance while their children were pre-school, went to school themselves and later got good jobs. One Mom said during that time, she allowed herself one potato a day - that's ALL she ate - to feed her kids nutritious food. That's the reality. The rich whiners are friggen clueless!

And that's a very good reason for them to make a much larger contribution than they currently do.

And if they REALLY want to find out where their money is going, they should go volunteer at a food bank, shelter, after-school program, etc.

Because it's not about the parents, it's about 'equal' opportunity for children

And we know it isn't nearly 'equal'.

And we know there's huge fraud committed by the rich too ... tax evasion, cheating on every gov program that's supposed to help business, etc etc etc.

So ... time for them to pony up a tiny bit more out of their huge wealth ... and stop dumping on 'the people on welfare'.

The food that any one of them throws out in a year could feed dozens of children who go to school hungry because the rich, as represented on here, are such pathetic excuses for human beings I think we should check their dna.

Minimally, I'd love to give them all a welfare holiday so they too can experience the joy.

The first week's great! Pay the rent, buy some food, a couple of beer ... whoops! All gone!

Now try making it to the end of the month.

Or ... go back to your own life and pay your taxes and be glad you are in a position to do so.

[Guest Peeves]

There is no doubt plenty of cheating. But you use this fact to vilify the very notion of social programs, even as you willingly concede that cheats, frauds, and systemic failures stretch through every organization, every policy, every socioeconomic grouping, straight to the top.

But only the social programs designed for those having real financial difficulty are the ones you favour targeting with closure or increased austerity.

If, as you say, cheating is inherent to all strata of society--and it is, up to and including corporations and socialized profit-making enterprises such as the military--why target only the weakest of society?

It's this top-down class warfare, this bald elitism, with which many are taking issue.

Again you refer to something unsaid. I have often blasted the fraud in government industry and elsewhere.

Please stop telling me those which I target for you only speculate which is disingenuous and self serving. Have I said that frauds other than those you selectively reference should be ignored.

You as a couple others here repeatedly attempt to turn a subject from the subject to me or another that you might want to target rather than the subject. If I wanted to refer to such complaining, I might call them liars, since they chose to make it personal..ad hominem.

I vilified no social programs, thats UNTRUE. I condemned cheaters and linked to a very few. One being 9-11, one being the Holocaust.

Now stay on point or alternatively just FTHO

[madmax]

Your reply and a couple others use Selective exposure theory in responding.

.. when you use Professor talk you have to leave the island

Jk...

[Guest Peeves]

.. when you use Professor talk you have to leave the island

Jk...

Won't. Till Gilligan comes back.

[Guest Peeves]

You're actually unwilling to look beyond your own anecdotal experiences that have been shown to be questionable from actual research that has been done into welfare fraud. But you won't see that because you seem to think that your opinions and your own personal experiences are facts that can be translated more broadly to society. It's called myopia.

I'm willing, able, and ready to look at all forms of cheating on social programs and fraud anywhere and never dealt exclusively with welfare.

My opinions are my opinions just as yours are yours.

The difference is some, you included, chose to refer to welfare fraud, while my opinion dealt with many areas. If you want to concentrate on welfare fraud that's your choice, not mine.

I used P.I.s on insurance, Workers comp. I ad nothing to do with welfare beyond casual observation and reports on some as a concerned taxpayer.

However, there have been others that have given some disturbing info. Since you want to deal exclusively with welfare, I pass it on FYI.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/2010/08/10/14982746.html

Now I doubt the poor are any more inclined to cheat than the rich and have pretty much said so. However those maintaining that I was focusing on any one group miss the point.

As I said initially, fraud will occur when any program can be bilked.

[Guest Peeves]

Actually, he's using it all to help pay down the deficit much to the chagrin of the NDP.

As I understand it, he 'said that', but it is going into the general fund and would you trust what 'Guinty says?

[Guest Peeves]

My prior statement:

Quote

However in my life's experience I have found that if a system can be abused it will be by fraud and deceit. Whether that is by doctors, lawyers, politicians, Refugees, immigrants or the hoi polloi.

I have (personally) seen abuse and cheats in Workers Comp, U.I. welfare,Social Assistance,Insurance fraud, and by employers- and by employees and it doesn't stop there.

Those that would deny there's fraud rampant in any or all possible programs and venues

that costs the tax payer a bundle, are simply in denial.

There are examples where more than the current generation are and have been on welfare.

If you disagree, fine, but don't ascribe things to me not said. That's lying.

BTW she made a big mistake in putting her leadership on line by waffling in my opinion. If taxing the 'rich' is the best she could find to attack the budget,she's a limp duck, not quite lame, but on crutches.

She copped out when she could have nailed that..that...that... :angry: I despair that the taxpayer has any party to represent our interests.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Peeves

[cybercoma]

That's great. You used PIs on workers' comp claims. So naturally you think everyone is cheating workers' comp. I'm willing to bet out of all the cases you were given, some of them weren't cheating comp. Moreover, you've never bothered to consider the number of people cheating versus the total number of all workers drawing compensation. How many cheats are there? How problematic is it? Has the number of cheats increased over time relative to the number of people drawing claims? These are all things you fail to consider. Instead, your tool in life is a hammer, so all you see are nails.

[Guest Peeves]

That's great. You used PIs on workers' comp claims. So naturally you think everyone is cheating workers' comp.Really? And just how do you support that accusation? I'm willing to bet out of all the cases you were given, some of them weren't cheating comp. For the record, only those that showed a definite cause for concern were investigated. Usually with good cause and usually found to be cases of fraud. Of course a few could not be proven. Moreover, you've never bothered to consider the number of people cheating versus the total number of all workers drawing compensation. Never? Really? And you know this how? How many cheats are there? How problematic is it? Has the number of cheats increased over time relative to the number of people drawing claims? These are all things you fail to consider. Really? I never considered them? Just how can you know or claim that?Instead, your tool in life is a hammer, so all you see are nails.

The above is all speculations using personal insults and ad hominem attack. Not a scintilla of sensible dialog on point. Why waste my time?

Ya know, you're so far out in left field you can't seem to grasp that I don't care what you think about me, I don't give a tinker's damn, a popcorn fart, a pinch of coon shit or a fiddlers toot about what you think about me personally.

I just might care about some comment you make on point, which is very seldom as you prefer to attack the author of a post.

"So naturally you think everyone is cheating workers' comp." An out and out lying accusation. Show proof for once to support the insulting insulting remarks you prefer to respond with.

"Moreover, you've never bothered to consider the number of people cheating versus the total number of all workers drawing compensation" An out and out irresponsible statement not supported by any fact. Prove that speculative personal insult

"These are all things you fail to consider. Instead, your tool in life is a hammer, so all you see are nails." An out and out personal attack with not one fact to substantiate your accusations. Prove that personal insult.

[Martin Chriton]

I don't understand why anyone with high salaries would stay in the province.

I grew up in Ontario but left many years back -- the high tax rates were definitely a big factor. I moved to the US and on average save 30k-50k a year. I make > 250k but less than 500k. Regardless, moves like this don't inspire me to move back anytime soon. 50k while not a huge amount of money it adds up over the years.

Everyone I grew up with in Ontario that also grosses over 250k has left as well.

Instead of complaining -- just fix the problem for yourself and leave.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Martin Chriton

[Guest Peeves]

I don't understand why anyone with high salaries would stay in the province.

I give up in Ontario but left many years back -- the high tax rates were definitely a big factor. I moved to the US and on average save 30k-50k a year. I make > 250k but less than 500k. Regardless, moves like this don't inspire me to move back anytime soon. 50k while not a huge amount of money it adds up over the years.

Everyone I grew up with in Ontario that also grosses over 250k has left as well.

Instead of complaining -- just fix the problem for yourself and leave.

When half our income goes out in taxes (so I have heard), and with waste in government, fraud in programs, entitlement behavior (Bev. Oada) I wonder why socialists believe the government should 'give' more, tax more and waste more?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't understand why anyone with high salaries would stay in the province.

I grew up in Ontario but left many years back -- the high tax rates were definitely a big factor. I moved to the US and on average save 30k-50k a year. I make > 250k but less than 500k. Regardless, moves like this don't inspire me to move back anytime soon. 50k while not a huge amount of money it adds up over the years.

Everyone I grew up with in Ontario that also grosses over 250k has left as well.

Instead of complaining -- just fix the problem for yourself and leave.

How many salaried positions earn that much and are mobile?

Not hard to see why the govt. does this?

[Martin Chriton]

How many salaried positions earn that much and are mobile?

Not hard to see why the govt. does this?

That's a fair point. I don't know the breakdown -- I'm in technology -- which is extremely mobile. Certainly folks in other fields such as medicine and law should be able to relocate. I've read that there are millions of Canadians living in the US already.

Talented people don't normally have a challenge relocating from my experience.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Martin Chriton

[bleeding heart]

Again you refer to something unsaid. I have often blasted the fraud in government industry and elsewhere.

Please stop telling me those which I target for you only speculate which is disingenuous and self serving. Have I said that frauds other than those you selectively reference should be ignored.

As I already said (making your remark about disingenuity re others' posts pretty amusing), you are more concerned with cheats and frauds throughout the lower-income, weaker aspects of society, and less concerned with it at the top.

I'm not saying you're ignoring them; only that, like elitists generally, your class warfare is aimed decidedly downwards in most cases.

You as a couple others here repeatedly attempt to turn a subject from the subject to me or another that you might want to target rather than the subject. If I wanted to refer to such complaining, I might call them liars, since they chose to make it personal..ad hominem.

Ah.....Peeves-y old boy, we had this discussion earlier, remember? Where you played the victim card along these lines about ad hominems and insults...until I quoted your own, very regular and usual, adherence to insults and ad hominems.

Why hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself?

[Michael Hardner]

That's a fair point. I don't know the breakdown -- I'm in technology -- which is extremely mobile.

Certainly folks in other fields such as medicine and law should be able to relocate. I've read that there are millions of Canadians living in the US already.

Talented people don't normally have a challenge relocating from my experience.

Technology people do not make this much money unless they're executives.

Doctors and lawyers normally don't make this much either.

What do we have left ?

[Topaz]

Since Ontario is/was a manufacturing province and now that many of the foreign companies have gone to US, Mexico or overseas, Ontario has to come up with something to replace it but what? Any thoughts on that? I guess this was one way of bringing some revenue in to Ontario. No one can argue that Ontario is in trouble over the huge debt and I would hope that ALL three parties would work together and find a solution but the Tories only care about the next election. BTW, the PM has told Flaherty to lay-off Ontario because he is always attacking the Liberals, no bias there, right? Lets see what Flaherty could do if he ran for leadership of the Ontario Tories in the next election. If he could get rid of the debt,then more power to him, BUT, Ontario doesn't have the revenue coming in as the Feds do. http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1171299--tim-harper-stephen-harper-tells-jim-flaherty-to-lay-off-ontario?bn=1

[Fletch 27]

"Really? We dont?? I will swap you my T4 and the $104K dollars in Tax i paid this year in exchange for a Xilinx FPGA (field programmable gate aray to "the lay-person") and a hand-shake... This province is fucked up beyond belief and my house is "UP FOR SALE" and I am headed west!

Ontario is now the official Arm-pit of Canada and there is NO way in hell im sticking around for any more of this leftist monopoly and waste..

The recent "merger" with Dalton and Horvath was the final straw.. Tax the Rich?? Sure! But you better clear the fucking waste and miss-management up for me to keep my tax-dollars here first!

Ontarians are sheep and will sit through every Dalton scandal and misuse of taxpayer funds... ORNGE, Wind-power, E-Health, Mississauga generators scrapped to the tune of Millions..

Let me re-phrase that,, Ontarians are not sheep,, Ontarians are F-ing STUPID! Enjoy it suckers,,Me and my tax-dollars are out of here!

Technology people do not make this much money unless they're executives.

Doctors and lawyers normally don't make this much either.

What do we have left ?

[jacee]

"Really? We dont?? I will swap you my T4 and the $104K dollars in Tax i paid this year in exchange for a Xilinx FPGA (field programmable gate aray to "the lay-person") and a hand-shake... This province is fucked up beyond belief and my house is "UP FOR SALE" and I am headed west!

Ontario is now the official Arm-pit of Canada and there is NO way in hell im sticking around for any more of this leftist monopoly and waste..

The recent "merger" with Dalton and Horvath was the final straw.. Tax the Rich?? Sure! But you better clear the fucking waste and miss-management up for me to keep my tax-dollars here first!

Ontarians are sheep and will sit through every Dalton scandal and misuse of taxpayer funds... ORNGE, Wind-power, E-Health, Mississauga generators scrapped to the tune of Millions..

Let me re-phrase that,, Ontarians are not sheep,, Ontarians are F-ing STUPID! Enjoy it suckers,,Me and my tax-dollars are out of here!

There's lots of countries that have lower taxes than Canada. Only problem is ... you wouldn't want to live there. Poor services, lousy transportation and infrastructure, high crime/losses, lack of opportunity to make the kind of money you can make here ... hey wait! Those are the things your tax dollars pay for!

I guess it's true, there is no free ride.

[Fletch 27]

Sounds like your A-OK with waste... And Scandals, and Fraud in your little leftist world.. Im FINE with Taxes.. not the sheer waste and fraud in Ontario through the Liberals and NDP..

There's lots of countries that have lower taxes than Canada. Only problem is ... you wouldn't want to live there. Poor services, lousy transportation and infrastructure, high crime/losses, lack of opportunity to make the kind of money you can make here ... hey wait! Those are the things your tax dollars pay for!

I guess it's true, there is no free ride.

[Michael Hardner]

"Really? We dont?? I will swap you my T4 and the $104K dollars in Tax i paid this year in exchange for a Xilinx FPGA (field programmable gate aray to "the lay-person") and a hand-shake... This province is fucked up beyond belief and my house is "UP FOR SALE" and I am headed west!

What do you do for a living ?

Let me re-phrase that,, Ontarians are not sheep,, Ontarians are F-ing STUPID! Enjoy it suckers,,Me and my tax-dollars are out of here!

Whenever I read vitriolic posts like that I like to point out to the rightists on here that it's just just leftists who post emotionally. Now. Take a breath and read my post again: most of the salaried money in that way isn't so mobile, at least as far as I can tell. Let me know if you disagree, and what your example is.

Most people would jump to make that kind of money in any jurisdiction, and I'm sure they'll have no trouble finding someone.

[Michael Hardner]

Sounds like your A-OK with waste...

You're wealthy, and yet you don't use a free spell checker, so there must be other reason for the your/you're lapse. Like - you don't care how your writing comes across...