The Rand Formula

[maplesyrup]

CORPORATE CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY AND THE WESTRAY MINE DISASTER

Does anyone remember the Westray Mine Disaster in Nova Scotia? This is what can happen when business is given carte blanche by corrupt governments that are just shills for the business world. Unfortunately there have too many incidents like this. Of course the capitalist bosses don't give a damm about the working conditions underground because they never have to go down into the mine themselves.

Have you ever been in a mine? I was once and I was never so happy to get back up to the surface.

[Stoker]

I think that you are the one living in "la la land". What about the safety issue? I see you have avoided this issue entirely. My suspicion is that you have not actually worked in heavy industry where unions are required in order to maintain a safe working environment.

Are you saying that none union enviroments are unsafe? If I'm correct in assuming this, perhaps you could provide some sort of statistics or something of the like?

The anti-union sentiment expressed here is the result of jealousy pure and simple. If you were unionized, I highly doubt that you would refuse the rewards that others have worked so hard for. That is also why is there no negative reaction to managers who earn so much.

Jealousy? I've done the "union thing" and didn't find it (in my experinces) in any way, shape or form superior to a none union enviroment. Infact, the slight raise in pay didn't make-up for the lack of "work".

BTW...I am not sure where you live, but $23/hr is not very high these days. Try raising a family properly on that.

Define properly.

[Cartman]

Are you saying that none union enviroments are unsafe? If I'm correct in assuming this, perhaps you could provide some sort of statistics or something of the like?

Would you argue that non-union environments are safer? No, I doubt it. As someone who teaches statistics, I do not need them to prove that I breathe air. Some things are common-sense. There are many alternative qualitative methods of inquiry to which you should avail yourself. Simply put, some things cannot be properly measured by statistics. For instance, many corporations avoid such statistical analysis by coding "accidents" as "incidents" or otherwise. This saves them insurance $$$, but also makes analysis difficult.

I have worked at many union and non-union workplaces where safety was a concern. In a nutshell, union workers are more prepared to refuse to do unsafe work (i.e. work under a running machine with moving parts) because they know that they have the support of others, while non-union workers are afraid to do so.

I think Black Dog put it best when it was stated that unions will not exist if they put corporations out of business. This is clearly not the goal.

[Stoker]

Would you argue that non-union environments are safer?

I won't argue over something unless I have proof (or statistics ) on it. Remember though, I didn't claim one enviroment to be safer then the other.........so do you have proof?

As someone who teaches statistics, I do not need them to prove that I breathe air. Some things are common-sense. There are many alternative qualitative methods of inquiry to which you should avail yourself. Simply put, some things cannot be properly measured by statistics. For instance, many corporations avoid such statistical analysis by coding "accidents" as "incidents" or otherwise. This saves them insurance $$$, but also makes analysis difficult.

Oh, so since you teach statistics, you should have no problem providing some for this topic.

Now if you can't provide statistics because of the evil capitlists pig dog corporations lies, ok fine. Now can you come-up with some other form of proof to prove your point........or does your point also double as your opinion? Perhaps you have confused the two?

I have worked at many union and non-union workplaces where safety was a concern. In a nutshell, union workers are more prepared to refuse to do unsafe work (i.e. work under a running machine with moving parts) because they know that they have the support of others, while non-union workers are afraid to do so.

I too have worked in none union and union enviroments and I've yet to see a none union employer crack a whip and force the workers to do unsafe tasks.......

I regress though, at this point, all the two of us are doing is trading opinion/rethoric/conjecture, so I suggest to break this "deadlock", you provide some sort of proof to back up your claim that "unions are required in order to maintain a safe working environment".

[maplesyrup]

How about the Westray Mining Disaster for starters where the safety concerns of the union were ignored?

Get real!

Of course there is much more safety in a unionized environment. It is just basic common sense. If workers have the power of the union to back them up, they will speak out about safety concerns, if not, they won't say anything for fear of losing their job.

One don't need statistics for a basic given. If you want stats go to any WCB in the country and get educated.

To ignore safety though, is one of those short term gains, for long term pain issues.

[Hjalmar]

I think that you are the one living in "la la land". What about the safety issue? I see you have avoided this issue entirely

I hardly think that unionists can laud the safety issue. What about the mine in Yellowknife a few years ago where union workers on strike set a bomb inside the mine killing a number of people. Of course, like the mafia, they cover their tracks quite well. However one man took the fall and is serving a life sentence.

Now, would you like to make a comparison of this incident with labour union safety issues that you continue to laud? One is wilful [murder in other words] while the other is accidental.

Safety is not an issue in the workplace any more. Non-union work is every bit as safe today. You sound like you're running out of ammunition.

[maplesyrup]

What do you hope to achieve with your union bashing? It sounds like you must be jealous of the union wages and benefits which can be very understandable.

BTW the Westray Mine Disaster killed 26 people over safety issues. The Yellowknife incident killed how many and it sounds like it was a criminal act. No one here is condoning criminal behaviour as far as I know.

[Black Dog]

I'll ask you to explain this to me --- Why has a small group [approx 25% of the workforce] been vested with such massive powers? I'll answer my own question: These powers were granted to labour unions little by little over a long period of time dating back 100 years. Once additional powers are granted they seldom, if ever, are rescinded. Over time, these powers accumulated to the point where labour unions have become a huge thorn in our society. Scrapping the Rand Formula is not the total answer but a good start nevertheless.

But you haven't offered any real evidence to show union-wages are to blame for risiing consumer prices, decreased productivity or any other of the ills you claim they cause.

I'm beginning to think your union-bashing is strictly idealogically-based.

Organizations have a limited amount of resources. They deploy these resources to deliver a service or produce a product. Every time resources are diverted from the organizations primary function of delivering the service or producing a product they loose efficiency. Loss of efficiency decreases productivity. Unions divert attention from production and use organizational resources thus they decrease productivity.

Even if this were true, so what? The most efficient system would be forced sweatshop labour. No union, no wages to pay, more resopurces for production. Surely that would be more produictive, no? The point is, unions provide the necessary balance to ensure workers are looked after. A corporations sole purpose is to maximize gain for a select few. From a social standpoint, kow-towing to the needs of these select few would be a disaster.

Costco is not kicking Wall marts butt. Wall mart is the largest company in the world and has been for years now. They only have one direction to go.

Down? CostCo has been performing far better than Wal Mart over the past few years. If unions were as damaging as you say, one would expect Costco to perpetually lag behind its union-busting rival.

is a twenty year old labourer at Vic Ship making 20-23 hr really doing that well when compared to another twenty year old labourer working in a none union enviroment making 10-15 hr?

Obviously the union worker, who is making $8-10/hr more than his non-union counterpart for the same work, is doing better. I'm still struggling to see how you can point to higher union wages as a bad thing for workers?

The fact is that union workers benefit at the expense of everyone else. There are a lot of products that non-union workers can no longer afford because of inflated prices resulting directly from labour unions exorbitant demands

Really, if the problem was a self-evident as you claim it couldn't be that hard to offer some proof to go with your boilerplate.

What do you hope to achieve with your union bashing? It sounds like you must be jealous of the union wages and benefits which can be very understandable.

More likely, he's a frustrated would-be capitalist.

[maplesyrup]

Giant Mine Trial

Roger Warren confessed to the RCMP that he was responsible for the murders in October 1993. A jury found him guilty of second-degree murder in January 1995. He's now serving a life term at Stony Mountain Penitentiary in Manitoba.

Warren in prison 

The Workers' Compensation Board for the Northwest Territories is suing for damages on behalf of the families, and to recover the money it paid out after the accident. The total: $18 million.

The Board claims that the long list of defendants created the conditions in which the murders were inevitable, describing the months before as "a summer of labour terrorism." The WCB is casting a wide net, naming the owners of the mine and its CEO, Peggy Witte, the territorial government, the Pinkerton's security force and several prominent strikers on the list of defendants.

Seeing as this incident was raised, thought I would do a little reasearch and what did I find. Low and behold, WCB sued management CEO Peggy Whitte, the government, security forces, as well as some union members. Talk about a distortion of what actually took place.

Both this incident which killed 9 people, and the Westray disaster which killed 26 people, are tragedies, no question about that.

[Cartman]

I won't argue over something unless I have proof (or statistics ) on it. Remember though, I didn't claim one enviroment to be safer then the other.........so do you have proof?

So let me get this straight. If I offer you some statistics on this matter demonstrating my point, you will accept the results wholeheartedly?

[maplesyrup]

Our Olympics Can Benefit All

Sydney’s hopeful experience

However, many observers are hanging their hopes for Games in Vancouver that are worth the support of working people on the partial social policy and environmental successes of the Sydney Games in 2000. Tony Webb’s The Collaborative Games, a strenuously enthusiastic account of the Sydney experience, is an important and compelling read for any B.C. citizen who cares about the upcoming 2010 Games, a book full of instructive examples of what can be done to make the Games pay off for someone other than the big corporate sponsors.

The task was immense. The costs for construction projects alone associated with the Sydney games came to $3.5 billion dollars, and employed 7,500 workers on site and another 15,000 in off site work. During the actual Games, over 200,000 paid and volunteer workers joined with thousands of athletes and performers to entertain over seven and a half million who attended the games and their associated off-site performances live, and billions who watched broadcasts around the world. Records were broken regularly, both on the playing field on the profit margins of big business.

But the Sydney Games were not just another squalid tale of corporate profit taking, at least as Australian researcher Tony Webb tells the story in The Collaborative Games, published by Pluto Press. Instead, because of creative steps taken by local organized labour and by the organizers of the Games (made possible in part by the presence in the state capital of a Labour government that was more interested in cooperation than in the dreary neo-liberal catechism of privatization, union busting and profit maximization that shapes so much public policy around the world these days) the Games provided Australian workers with improved wages and a voice in the day to day operations of Games pre-build and operations.

For the same reasons, Sydney’s Games offered local unions an opportunity to recruit substantial numbers of new members, at the same time delivering on construction and performance time lines in an almost flawless fashion, on time and on budget, with only one day lost to labour dispute over the construction period, and only one accidental death.

What a fascinating contrast when we all collaborate. All the more reason why it is imperative to dislodge the Campbell Liberals next May 17.

[willy]

walmart as it is has stated and set up programs to help employees in need.

To report a suspected ethics violation from the United States, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Dominican Republic and Spain call 1-800-WMETHIC (1-800-963-8442), which allows you to report a suspected violation on a confidential and anonymous basis. For calls originating from all other countries call collect, 770-613-6380, which also allows you to report a suspected ethics violation on a confidential and anonymous basis.

If you are a Wal-Mart Associate, you may also use the Open Door. The Open Door is the most direct way to voice any concern to a supervisor. If you believe your immediate supervisor is involved in the misconduct, report the misconduct to the next level of management believed not to be involved.

Walmarts statement of ethics that all employees are held to account on.

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/...gov/ethics1.pdf

Here are the sales figures:

Net sales were $69.7 billion, an increase of 11.3 percent over the second quarter of fiscal 2004.

As for the select few, that would be millions of share holders:

The Board of Directors of Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. has approved an increase in the annual dividend to $0.52 per share, a 44% increase from the $0.36 per share paid during the previous fiscal year.

They have even won awards for the employee management efforts.

Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. received the 2002 Ron Brown Award, the highest Presidential Award recognizing outstanding achievement in employee relations and community initiatives

Costco has a code of ethics to but it doesn't look that well though out or promoted.

http://ext.corporate-ir.net/media_files/NS...our_mission.pdf

Their stock was as high as $45 in 2003 but declined for over a year and is now recovering back to $40.

Their sales did increase 14% over last year Q2.

So in a recovering economy both these companies are doing well. Walmart already was giant and as I eluded to can only go down, but they are still performing well. Costco looks good right now.

But, if Costco were to have a major strike or with the rosy outlook had to give major contract incentives who will be left in a better market position.

Sure it is not all about efficiency or productivity for people and that is why we have the government set out environmental and labour standards but as a corporation one has to look at maximizing productivity. Unions do interfere with this.

As so many of you have pointed out it is common sense. You have rightly pointed out that maybe there was a reason for this interference with productivity. I have clearly stated that this interference is dated and become more of a hindrance than effective.

WBC rates force managers to respect safety even if there conscious doesn't and employee opportunities in the next ten years will be on the rise so mobility, and will force managers to respect employees needs. (by 2006 only 2 employees will replace 3 leaving the workforce, by 2008 it will be 1 of 3)

Here is an individual opportunity to maximize your potential and do what you want. You will need resources i.e. education, access to market (networking) and energy. In the end this is what will get a good secure income and hopefully an enjoyable work experience.

As an employee I have worked in union and non union operations. I worked in two saw mills growing up, one union and the other one not. The contract negotiations and seniority were some of the differences. In the non union mill I was able to work my way around the organization and learn many jobs. In the union site I had my place and had to put in my time.

I was a bouncer at a bar in BC and yes we were unionized. We were put in harms way all the time. I was also a bouncer in Alberta and we were put in harms way all the time. The big difference was the union dues ate up most of my pay check.

I currently work with many organizations and I have met many good union organizers but some do nothing but work against you. The moral in union environments is not good. Go look to fortunes top companies to work for. The Box Company was at the top for a few years. They are not union but they do pay their employees well. The employees there have a since of belonging and purpose. They are will trained and respected. Is that not really what you want.

Sorry for the long rant but I wanted to inject hopefully a new direction in this thread. It was becoming very circular and insulting.

[Hjalmar]

But you haven't offered any real evidence to show union-wages are to blame for risiing consumer prices, decreased productivity or any other of the ills you claim they cause.

Outsourcing -- doesn't that explain it all? Why are corporations fleeing to lower wage jurisdictions? Very self evident -- they have become uncompetitive from a price standpoint because of high union wages and benefits.

[Black Dog]

But you haven't offered any real evidence to show union-wages are to blame for risiing consumer prices, decreased productivity or any other of the ills you claim they cause.

Outsourcing -- doesn't that explain it all? Why are corporations fleeing to lower wage jurisdictions? Very self evident -- they have become uncompetitive from a price standpoint because of high union wages and benefits.

No. It doesn't. Outsourcing is more complex than that.

Wages are a factor, but you haven't shown that's the fault of unions. Given a choice between a North American job and an overseas job where you only have to pay workers a pitance, you'll go with the pittance. AT that point it doesn't matte rif workers are making $10/hr or $25: paying someone 75 cents a day trumps 'em both.

Furthermore, many juridstictions offer companies tax breaks and other incentives to relocate operations.

And, as willy's earlier link implied, high wages are not a deterrent for some industries when it comes to outsourcing.

Basically you're scapegoating unions in what's really a complex issue.

[Cartman]

In the non union mill I was able to work my way around the organization and learn many jobs.

This is the only criticism of unions I will accept so far. Sometimes a person can wait for some time to get into new positions and learn more. Point accepted.

Safety is not an issue in the workplace any more. Non-union work is every bit as safe today. You sound like you're running out of ammunition.

Safety is not an issue in the workplace anymore? WTF? Maybe if you work in a mall it is not a big issue, but it is if you work in heavy industry. When I pulled electric cable for Marion shovels, if there was a cut in the lines (and they are never perfect) the cable could blow off my hand, chest or hip. Yeah...that's a safety concern. I had to rely upon people to inspect the cable for cracks and my hot gloves for pin pricks. I always felt better knowing that a unionized person with adequate time was inspecting them rather than someone being pressured to get the job done quickly.

I don't know why I even bother to post this because it is so self-evident but whatever.

"78-79 percent of unionized workplaces reported high compliance with health and safety legislation while only 54-61 per cent of non-unionized workplaces reported such compliance." Report, Ontario Workplace Health and Safety Agency.

"In workplaces with full union recognition and a joint management-union safety committee serious accident rates were less than half those at firms with no union recognition and non joint committee." Barry Reilly, Peirella Paci and Peter Hall. Unions, Safety committees and workplace injuries. British Journal of Industrial Relations, 33, 2, June 1995.

Unionized workplaces were three times as likely to have a health and safety committee, and twice as likely to have undergone a management occupational health and safety audit in the preceding 12 months. Paraphrasing of Workplace Relations Survey,1990-1995, Australia.

"Effective strategies for involving workers appear to be conditional on a number of variables, most importantly on worker activism and the effective use of formal negotiations." Michelle Ochsner and Michael Greenberg, Factors which support effective worker participation in health and safety: A survey of New Jersey, Industrial and Hygienists and Safety Engineers. Journal of Public Health Policy, volume 19, No 3, 1998.

Barry Hirsch ("Workers Compensation Recipiency in Union and Non-union Workplaces," Industrial and Labour Relations Review, Vol. 50, No.2 January 1997, p.p. 213-235) concluded that in cases where workers do get injured on the job or develop work-related illnesses, it’s also advantageous to be a union member. Studies in the United States and Canada show that union members are more likely to receive WCB Benefits when they are injured on the job than non-union members. This is attributed to the fact that union members can go to their union representative for help navigating the WCB’s bureaucratic maze. Non-union workers are on their own."

[Hjalmar]

This is attributed to the fact that union members can go to their union representative for help navigating the WCB’s bureaucratic maze. Non-union workers are on their own."

So, you're admitting that you are unable to fend for yourself and need a crutch!

I don't know why I even bother to post this because it is so self-evident but whatever

You sound like a person who would take out a million dollar insurance policy in the event an eagle should bite you while playing polo.

[maplesyrup]

I have to support Cartman's point of view here. It is not rocket science to know that unionized work sites are substantially safer places than non-unionized ones.

[Guest eureka]

The weakness of unions leads to such abominations as the Walmart idea. That is an example of the lack of concern for wotkers that has been followed by a number of others who are forced back into nineteenth practices in order to compete.

A number of Canadian corporations have been forced to renegotiate contracts with employees.: some have started discount operations.

I read some time ago, that the "Walmart concept" as it was called - I assume it means the big-box, poor service idea - has cost the US about 2,5 million jobs and Canada a proportionate number. The jobs that have not gone and are in the vicitimizing industries, directly, are low paid and with few benefits.

If ever there was an urgent need in North America, it is for a revitalising of the Union movement. Capitalism can be made to work to improve the lot of all. Free market, unregulated, and uncontrolled Capitalism is the sign of a very sick culture and society; one that has forgotten the purpose of a social coming together of people for the common good.

Neo-Liberalism, if it is allowed to continue its unfettered sway is the "ugly face of Capitalism:" it will, inevitably, be the beginning of the end of the experiment of combining Capitalism with democracy.

[willy]

Walmart has been used as an example many times. As I sated earlier many things can make an organization competitive or not. Walmart has done a good job of satisfying employees enough not to get a union unitl now in Quebec. But is the wage structure what sets them apart.

10 years ago Kmart and Walmart were even in the market. They both went with discount strategies to gain market share. Kmart has been fending off bankruptcy for over a year now. What was the big difference.

Walmart has one of the best warehousing systems in business. They keep very low inventory and are able to track and meet demand where it is needed. This process is an information system that employs some highly skilled people. It is also the biggest difference in how they were able to eat up the market share of Kmart, and in Canada Zellars.

There are other challenges now. Walmart has been so successful they are now practicing monopoly like tendencies with suppliers. (e.g. exclusive access) This is not healthy for a competitive environment but unions are not the answer. Governments need to set the playing field for fair competition.

By the way how much does a greeter at Walmart get paid? Everyone has assumed it starts and stays at minimum wage. Do they not get benefits when they are fulltime employees. Do they not have training and growth opportunities?

[Hugo]

By the way how much does a greeter at Walmart get paid? Everyone has assumed it starts and stays at minimum wage.

Wal-Mart Canada does not have any minimum wage employees. This comes from an official spokesperson for Wal-Mart, in a reply to an editorial article in the Toronto Sun a short time ago.

[maplesyrup]

What has the minimum wage for new employees in BC been dropped to, with our brilliant Premier Gordon Campbell - is it $6. per hour?

What was it under the NDP? $8. or $8.50 an hour?

So everything else in the world goes up in price, except wages with Gordo. No wonder he will be turfed soon!

So this means that Wal-Mart can get away with paying $6.05 an hour, and claim they are not paying minimum wage. Grotesque.

[willy]

So this means that Wal-Mart can get away with paying $6.05 an hour, and claim they are not paying minimum wage. Grotesque.

But do they? The question was rhetorical. They don't.

The actual minimum wage in BC is $7.50. They did create a program to help young people enter the work force, so for the first 200 hours they can have a lower wage $6.00.

[maplesyrup]

Try living, or purchasing a home in Vancouver earning $15. or even $20. an hour. These conditions remind one of the Charles Dickens era, where there was absolutely no hope for low wage earners.

[willy]

Try living, or purchasing a home in Vancouver earning $15. or even $20. an hour. These conditions remind one of the Charles Dickens era, where there was absolutely no hope for low wage earners.

Even if you make $70, 000 a year you can't buy a home in Vancouver, so how much should the minimum be. This is supply and demand. If everyone has more the prices go up. Please a little commons sense with the economics please.

I will tell you what though, you can buy a nice home in Regina working for $20 an hour. We are free to go, and if you stay in the highest priced housing market in the country don't expect me to pay for your house.

Average cost of a detached home in Vancouver is now over $400 000. The average price of a condo is $245 000.

We better have a good rapid transit system to the suburbs because a lot of people with a lot of money can't afford to live in Vancouver.

Not to mention if you make that much you wont be shopping at Walmart anymore.

[Black Dog]

Walmart has been used as an example many times. As I sated earlier many things can make an organization competitive or not. Walmart has done a good job of satisfying employees enough not to get a union unitl now in Quebec. But is the wage structure what sets them apart.

Uh, I think where Wal Mart is concerned it's less a matter of "satisfying employees" as it is "squashing union organization efforts". McDonald's uses the same approach and, consequentially, has become synonymous with dead-end, crap jobs.

Hjalmar: I'm still waiting to see some data to back up your claims.