F-35 Purchase

[Wild Bill]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have replacement planes I'm just not sure we need these ones. We shouldn't be trying to be in a role similar to the US as we haven't the resources to play that game. We are better suited to be the peace keepers we were once recognized as. Maybe we should worry more about protecting our northern shores as that seems to be a more immediate threat to us at the moment. Civil wars are a far different thing from the wars Canada has proudly served in, in the past, and requires a far different approach.

Our problem is that we are entering a world where the status quo for fighter aircraft technology includes many new things, especially stealth technology.

From now on, any fighter aircraft without stealth technology in a fighter zone might as well fly with big bullseyes on its wings!

So far, nobody seems to have found ANY alternate planes that feature these new technologies.

To make it even more difficult, Canada has old planes at the moment and wishes to buy on the leading edge of what is available, so that they can get at least 30 years of service out of them. Actually, if we do what we have always done before it will be at least 50 years before we replace the planes we buy now!

So we have limitations on our choices. We also have to have NATO compatibility, so that our planes can be serviced on any NATO airfield. If we buy Swiss or worse yet Soviet or Chinese, we are totally on our own, which is not just very inconvenient but very, very expensive in a combat theatre.

I fully expect that by the time we get through all the procrastination and debate it will be over 30 year from now. We will have to scrap everything we have looked at and start fresh with the technology existing at that time.

Also, I have no doubt we will still be flying those SeaKings!

[Guest Derek L]

And despite the naysayer’s Norway places first order for F-35A's

Norway placed its first firm order for Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on Friday in a big victory for a programme troubled by cost overruns, production delays and order cuts.

Norway formally ordered two aircraft and expects to order another 50 for a total procurement cost of $10 billion (6.4 billion pounds), the largest ever public purchase, Minister of Defence Espen Barth Eide told a news conference.

Norway's 10 Billion / 50 = ?

Canada's 14.7 Billion/ 65 = ?

[waldo]

And despite the naysayer’s Norway places first order for F-35A's

Norway's 10 Billion / 50 = ?

Canada's 14.7 Billion/ 65 = ?

hey now... thought you bailed on this thread... given all that inconvenient truth being laid out for you! Do you still have nothing to say about all that criticism coming forward from within the Pentagon F-35 SAR report... from the U.S. government's GAO report... from the U.S. Congressional committee testimonies... etc., etc., etc. Do you still have nothing to say - about all that?

but hey now, about you trumpeting Norway, how about a lil' refresher, hey? You playing with numbers again?

Norwegian government

: Norwegian authorities have calculated

two prices

for aircraft purchase. Purchase price

and total price including operation during the expected life of 30 years

.

and... Norwegian life-cycle estimates are coming in at a 'whopping' $40 Billion...

$15 Billion more

than the original estimate -

for only 52 F-35s

over only a

30 year life-cycle

.

Man, did they ever blow their initial estimate! Sure hope they hold whoever is responsible for the screw up accountable.

now that we've dispensed with the imaginary Harper Conservative "contract", my impression is that Canada isn't privy to any special pricing unique/distinct from other JSF partners (I stand to be corrected)... in this Norwegian example, strictly looking at acquisition costs, the original Norwegian cost estimate was $12 Billion for only 52 F-35... and somehow... Canada's F-35 acquisition cost for 65 F-35s was quoted by Harper Conservatives at only $9 Billion. Norway: $12 Billion for 52 F-35s... Canada: $9 Billion for 65 F-35s. Is there a problem here?

let's not lose that critical perspective highlighted earlier:

in any case, you continue to miss the thrust of that Wikileaks cable that reinforces a U.S. desire/intention to thwart the underlying Nordic cooperative relationship between Sweden & Norway by delaying a U.S. decision on releasing AESA radar to Saab for utilization within the Gripen; i.e., making the Gripen less desirable to Norway prior to it's final decision towards the F-35... none of which has any bearing on any level/degree of BAE involvement in Saab.

in any case, about that Norwegian post reference you offered some pages back. Notwithstanding yours was an interesting spin to presume to leverage their decision to delay (spread out) purchase, I find this reference to Wikileaks memos, requirements and U.S. pressure to bear, most enlightening particularly given our sorry state of affairs:

Reports says U.S. officials pressured Norwegians on F-35

Aviation Week's Bill Sweetman, who is no fan of the F-35 program, reports on the Ares blog that a Swedish newspaper has found U.S. diplomatic cable traffic in the Wikileaks intelligence trove that show U.S. government officials played a little hardball with the government of Norway to keep them on board as a future F-35 buyer.

We haven't done our own translation yet of the Swedish story, but according to Sweetman's version the U.S. withheld approval for Sweden to use a Raytheon AESA radar in the Gripen jet in order to lessen its capabilities and appeal to the Norwegians, who were being pressured at home to buy from their neighbors.

US officials, including then deputy defense secretary Gordon England, also warned the Norwegian government that "the choice of aircraft will have an impact on the bilateral relationship" between the two countries - but the second-in-command at Norway's defense ministry asked the US government to deny that any political pressure had been applied.

According to documents, Swedish defense minister Sten Tolgfors met with Michael Wood, US ambassador to Sweden, in June 2008 to discuss the possibility of adapting a Raytheon active electronically scanned array (AESA) for Gripen NGs in the Nordic region. At the time, Saab had an agreement with Thales to use that company's AESA technology in the Gripen Demo prototype but had not made a decision about a production configuration.

Wood had previously reviewed the request, on which Sweden expected a decision in September, but on July 9 advised the Defense Department to put the request on hold until Norway had made its decision.

[waldo]

it just gets better... from this initial post highlighting South Korea's concerns about being scammed by Lockheed Martin...

apparently... there's a fair number of "production" F-35s sitting on the U.S. Elgin flight training tarmac... with eager beaver U.S. military 'flight students' just clamoring for a chance to get into them. Apparently, they can't get a safety rating for the F-35s; one sufficient to allow them to be flown.

and now along comes raised South Korean concerns over forced simulator level evaluation of the F-35... simulator only - oh my? Is there actually an F-35 that can get off the ground?

Controversy erupts over simulation test of F-35 in fighter jet purchase

A plan to conduct performance tests of Lockheed Martin's F-35 using simulators, not an actual test flight by a South Korean pilot, has stirred up controversy here as Seoul prepares to buy an advanced fleet of stealth fighters.

Boeing's F-15 SE, Lockheed's F-35 and EADS Eurofighter are competing to win a huge deal worth upward of 10 trillion won (US$8.5 billion) to sell 60 combat fighters to South Korea, which will choose a supplier in October.

On-site performance tests will be held in June for the F-35, in August for the F-15 SE and in September for the Eurofighter, according to officials at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), South Korea's state arms procurement agency, on Thursday.

While Boeing and EADS agreed to carry out performance tests through actual flights with a Korean pilot on board, Lockheed refused to do so, saying the radar-evading warplane is not in service and still under development.

we now read the controversy is heating up... and... it seems simulators were the least of concern for Israel and Japan - who made their decisions entirely based on 'paperwork promises'! Oh my!

Controversy Continues in Korea Over F-35 – Israel and Japan Selected F-35 Based on Data And Not Actual Tests of Their Own

The state-run arms procurement agency is facing mounting criticism over its chief’s erroneous remarks about the adoption of simulation tests by Japan and Israel, in place of actual test flights, during the evaluation of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighter jet.

In response to the controversy of allowing a flight simulation test for evaluation of the F-35, Noh Dae-lae, head of the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), had maintained that this should not be an issue since

Japan and Israel also adopted the virtual test for the fifth-generation jet.

It was, however, found that the two countries made up their mind to buy F-35s neither after a simulation test, nor test flights as two of the closest allies of the United States evaluated the single-seat, single-engine stealth plane under development based on paperwork.

“DAPA commissioner Noh was upset as he and his staff belatedly found out yesterday that Japan and Israel did not carry out a simulation test before deciding on the purchase of F-35s,” a senior official at the acquisition agency said Thursday. “We regret giving misleading information to the public.”

[waldo]

And despite the naysayer’s Norway places first order for F-35A's

speaking of tails... probably one of the more JSFail F-35 telling signs from within the latest U.S. GAO report... speaking to countries forced procurement delays and rising price induced reductions in orders:

"Since 2002, the total quantity through 2017 has been reduced by three-fourths, from 1,591 to 365."

is there a problem? And just where is that much touted, "Canadian sweet spot", now? 2021, 2022, 2023??? What's going to happen... if this 'flight of fancy' ever does get off the ground... when the queue is so stacked and the U.S. military branches take precedence on production releases?

[bush_cheney2004]

if this 'flight of fancy' ever does get off the ground... when the queue is so stacked and the U.S. military branches take precedence on production releases?

Paying customers get priority....cheap tire kickers must step aside.

[Guest Derek L]

speaking of tails... probably one of the more JSFail F-35 telling signs from within the latest U.S. GAO report... speaking to countries forced procurement delays and rising price induced reductions in orders:

"Since 2002, the total quantity through 2017 has been reduced by three-fourths, from 1,591 to 365."

is there a problem? And just where is that much touted, "Canadian sweet spot", now? 2021, 2022, 2023??? What's going to happen... if this 'flight of fancy' ever does get off the ground... when the queue is so stacked and the U.S. military branches take precedence on production releases?

But with all that Waldo, Norway has just signed on the dotted line

[Guest Derek L]

Paying customers get priority....cheap tire kickers must step aside.

What you wanna bet South Korea formally selects the F-35 this fall? I called the Japanese selection last summer, and seem to remember having a multi page “debate” with another poster (M. Dancer?) as to why Japan would select it to replace their Phantoms…………For my Wild Card picks, I’ll take Taiwan, the Kingdom of Belgium, Finland and Romania

[waldo]

speaking of tails... probably one of the more JSFail F-35 telling signs from within the latest U.S. GAO report... speaking to countries forced procurement delays and rising price induced reductions in orders:

"Since 2002, the total quantity through 2017 has been reduced by three-fourths, from 1,591 to 365."

is there a problem? And just where is that much touted, "Canadian sweet spot", now? 2021, 2022, 2023??? What's going to happen... if this 'flight of fancy' ever does get off the ground... when the queue is so stacked and the U.S. military branches take precedence on production releases?

But with all that Waldo, Norway has just signed on the dotted line

see the earlier referenced and quoted wikileaks cable - very insightful... of course the same players are all still involved. In any case, I am heartened to read you finally chime back in on this thread... over Norway with a firm commitment to buy... 2 more of them! Will LM be throwing in simulators? Only you could attempt to face down the reality of a three-fourths reduction in tails with your jumping up and down gleefulness over... Norway!

but hey now, since you have been buoyed up to return to the thread, does this mean you will actually take a stab at some of the inconvenient truths you've been so conveniently ignoring?

hey now... thought you bailed on this thread... given all that inconvenient truth being laid out for you! Do you still have nothing to say about all that criticism coming forward from within the Pentagon F-35 SAR report... from the U.S. government's GAO report... from the U.S. Congressional committee testimonies... etc., etc., etc. Do you still have nothing to say - about all that?

[Guest Derek L]

see the earlier referenced and quoted wikileaks cable - very insightful... of course the same players are all still involved. In any case, I am heartened to read you finally chime back in on this thread... over Norway with a firm commitment to buy... 2 more of them! Will LM be throwing in simulators? Only you could attempt to face down the reality of a three-fourths reduction in tails with your jumping up and down gleefulness over... Norway!

but hey now, since you have been buoyed up to return to the thread, does this mean you will actually take a stab at some of the inconvenient truths you've been so conveniently ignoring?

Well I might, but your posts, with the necessary bloggers and peaceniks as “evidence”, frankly boarder on the absurd and at the moment, we’re out of tin-foil………Like I’ve said, from the news article (And the Norwegian defence department releases) this initial purchase, followed by another two plane purchase will equip the Norwegian commitment for F-35 conversion training in Florida……..Subsequently, once the Royal Norwegian Air Force has a cadre of pilots qualified as trainers on the type, then they’ll purchase and receive the remainder (~ 5 years time) of their planned purchase……….

I find it odd, with a quick Google search, I’ve yet to find any Canadian media mentions of the Norwegian purchase……..Yet it’s all over other International sources………Perhaps I’ll have to make a special trip down to Superstore to pick-up some ALCAN.

Clearly a sign the F-35 is about to be scrapped

Lockheed Martin Corp has won a U.S contract worth $490 million to start buying parts, material and components for a seventh batch of 35 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter planes, the Pentagon announced on Friday.

Lockheed, the Pentagon's largest supplier, welcomed the agreement and said it would help ensure that the $396 billion F-35 program, which has been restructured three times in recent years, continued to meet its production schedules.

And:

The U.S. Department of Defense said the order would include 19 conventional takeoff and landing or "A" models for the U.S. Air Force; three F-35A models for the government of Italy; two F-35As for Turkey; six short takeoff, vertical landing or F-35B aircraft for the U.S. Marine Corps; one F-35B for Britain, and four carrier variant aircraft for the Navy.

A sure sign the program is on life support and the partners are about to abandon it…..

[Argus]

assuming the JSFail program doesn't get cancelled, outright, by the U.S. Government, when's the JSFail F-35 available to Canada?... and what's the reference JSFail F-35 price at that point? Please be prepared to substantiate your stated availability date(s) & price... thanks in advance. Equally, what vapourware version of the JSFail F-35 should be the target reference?

I'm uncertain as to why you felt that, being unable to answer the question I posed, you should instead pose counter questions. New fighters inevitably have problems. You clearly feel we should cancel the order. But then what? You bitch and whine but have no solutions?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Argus

[Argus]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have replacement planes I'm just not sure we need these ones. We shouldn't be trying to be in a role similar to the US as we haven't the resources to play that game.

We're not trying to have a role similar to them. Not with 68 planes. I think we're trying for a role similar to Sweden or Australia or Norway or other such minor powers, ie, just enough aircraft to establish a tentative sovereignty over our own air space.

[Argus]

And despite the naysayer’s Norway places first order for F-35A's

Norway's 10 Billion / 50 = ?

Canada's 14.7 Billion/ 65 = ?

Norwegians are rabid militarists, you know...

[waldo]

Well I might, but your posts, with the necessary bloggers and peaceniks as “evidence”, frankly boarder on the absurd and at the moment, we’re out of tin-foil

as before, when you throw up a blog type post... no problem. In any case, yours is a convenient go-to avoidance measure - as I emphasized, I was directly speaking to such inconvenient truths as those quoted directly from, or making reference to, reports/statements from such sources as... the Pentagon, the U.S. GAO, U.S. Congressional testimonies, etc. Yes, clearly, you don't want to have anything to do with those reports/statements.

by the way, no comments on the hardball preconditions Norway played in regards the Norwegian developed JSM missile integration into the JSFail F-35... a completely new F-35 development pursuit. As for that Florida training reference you throw up, care to predict when the planes will actually get the needed safety rating? You know, to finally get all those pilots waiting to actually get in a plane that can be flown?

A sure sign the program is on life support and the partners are about to abandon it…..

sure buddy, what else can you say when procurement cuts/delays are running at 3/4 of the original numbers touted/flaunted. In any case, in perfect timing, we have the most recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report, released in recent days... a few choice gems...

hey Argus, have a chew... as well, hey?:

The new program baseline projects total acquisition costs of $395.7 billion, an increase of $117.2 billion (42 percent) from the prior 2007 baseline. Full rate production is now planned for 2019, a delay of 6 years from the 2007 baseline. Unit costs per aircraft have doubled since start of development in 2001. Critical dates for delivering warfighter requirements remain unsettled because of program uncertainties.

Overall performance in 2011 was mixed as the program achieved 6 of 11 important objectives. Developmental flight testing gained momentum and is now about 21 percent complete with the most challenging tasks still ahead. Performance of the short takeoff and vertical landing variant improved this year and its “probation” period to fix deficiencies was ended after 1 year with several fixes temporary and untested. Developing and integrating the more than 24 million lines of software code continues to be of concern. Late software releases and concurrent work on multiple software blocks have delayed testing and training. Development of critical mission systems providing core combat capabilities remains behind schedule and risky

Full rate production is now planned for 2019, a delay of 6 years from the 2007 baseline [emphasis added]. Unit costs per aircraft have doubled since start of development in 2001. Critical dates for delivering warfighter requirements remain unsettled because of program uncertainties. While the total number of aircraft DOD plans to buy has not changed, it has for 3 straight years reduced near-term procurement quantities, deferring aircraft and costs to future years. Since 2002, the total quantity through 2017 has been reduced by three-fourths, from 1,591 to 365. Affordability is a key challenge.

Development of critical mission systems providing core combat capabilities remains behind schedule and risky. To date, only 4 percent of the mission systems required for full capability have been verified. Deficiencies with the helmet mounted display, integral to mission systems functionality and concepts of operation, are most problematic. The autonomic logistics information system, integral technology for improving aircraft availability and lowering support costs, is not fully developed

Most of the instability in the program has been and continues to be the result of highly concurrent development, testing, and production activities. Cost overruns on the first four annual procurement contracts total more than $1 billion and aircraft deliveries are on average more than 1 year late…The manufacturing process is still absorbing higher than expected number of engineering changes resulting from flight testing, changes which are expected to persist at elevated levels into 2019, making it difficult to achieve efficient production rates. More design and manufacturing changes are expected as testing continues, bringing risks for more contract overruns and concurrency costs

[waldo]

U.S. government spending watchdog raises more red flags about F-35's soaring costs, delays and major failures

A U.S. government spending watchdog raised more red flags about soaring costs, delays and major failures in the F-35 stealth fighter jet program on Thursday, warning also of the impact the setbacks will have on eight other countries taking part in the project, including Canada.

The detailed report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office on F-35 testing and development problems—which the report suggested the program as it was originally planned is at risk—came out only a day after the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper (Calgary Southwest, Alta.) unveiled a high-level committee of bureaucrats and outside experts, including former federal auditor general Denis Desautels, that will take charge of Canada’s F-35 acquisition program following a scathing report from Auditor General Michael Ferguson last April.

Opposition MPs said the report is evidence the Conservative government has hidden information about problems the F-35 is facing, with rising costs and delays, and the mountain of information contained in the report is in stark contrast to the skimpy amount of information the Harper government has released.

“The report confirms that this government has decided to buy a pig in a poke, and has invested nearly a $1-billion into it,” said NDP MP Matthew Kellway (Beaches-East York, Ont.).

Liberal MP Gerry Byrne (Humber-Ste. Barbe-Baie Verte, Nfld.) said the report not only sums up the risks the F-35 project faces, but also shows how secretive the Conservative government is about the project, compared to the U.S.

“The Harper government has to sit up and take notice that, despite being obviously more vested in this fighter jet than anyone else, the U.S. government is raising serious red flags about their own jet while the Canadian government is involved in a cover up,” Mr. Byrne said.

The report recommends U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration take action by directing a review of the impact postponement of high numbers of U.S. Department of Defence F-35 acquisitions will affect the program’s cost and schedule, and a separate directive to the Department of Defence Joint Strike Fighter Program for a “comprehensive assessment” of a global supply chain the Harper government has said will offer Canadian aerospace firms an opportunity to bid on nearly $10-billion worth of supply contracts. The report contained some of the worst news the U.S. and its eight partner countries have heard about the F-35 this year, coming in the wake of an earlier report from the Government Accountability Office as well as criticism from the Armed Services committees of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives.

and about that short days ago tweeting puffery coming from Harper's point-man, Dean Del Mastro:

The report sharply contrasts with a glowing report on the F-35 project that was published online in Forbes magazine this week. “Few outsiders realize how smoothly the F-35 flight-test schedule is unfolding,” said the article, which Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro (Peterborough, Ont.) tweeted as evidence Canadian news media have not presented an accurate picture of the F-35 problems.

“This article tells a pretty different story on the F-35 program that most of you have likely read or heard,” Mr. Del Mastro said in his Twitter link to the column, written by a U.S. defence journalist.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well all I can say with regards to this wonderful F-35 thread is thank god for the "U.S. Government" !!

[Guest Derek L]

Well all I can say with regards to this wonderful F-35 thread is thank god for the "U.S. Government" !!

God Bless America And her ability to create all sorts of conspiracy topics to discuss!!

[Guest Derek L]

Norwegians are rabid militarists, you know...

They have no social safety net because of it!

Edited June 16, 2012 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

as before, when you throw up a blog type post... no problem. In any case, yours is a convenient go-to avoidance measure - as I emphasized, I was directly speaking to such inconvenient truths as those quoted directly from, or making reference to, reports/statements from such sources as... the Pentagon, the U.S. GAO, U.S. Congressional testimonies, etc. Yes, clearly, you don't want to have anything to do with those reports/statements.

by the way, no comments on the hardball preconditions Norway played in regards the Norwegian developed JSM missile integration into the JSFail F-35... a completely new F-35 development pursuit. As for that Florida training reference you throw up, care to predict when the planes will actually get the needed safety rating? You know, to finally get all those pilots waiting to actually get in a plane that can be flown?

sure buddy, what else can you say when procurement cuts/delays are running at 3/4 of the original numbers touted/flaunted. In any case, in perfect timing, we have the most recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report, released in recent days... a few choice gems...

hey Argus, have a chew... as well, hey?:

I'll ask again:

10 billion / 50 aircraft = ?

15 billion / 65 aircraft = ?

[cybercoma]

They have no social safety net because of it!

Would you like to introduce their taxation structure?

[waldo]

I'll ask again:

how telling is it to read your juvenile taunts over Norway purchasing a couple of jets... while you refuse to touch the U.S. GAO's overwhelming criticism of JSFail as just presented to you?

[Guest Derek L]

Would you like to introduce their taxation structure?

Why would we do that?

[Guest Derek L]

how telling is it to read your juvenile taunts over Norway purchasing a couple of jets... while you refuse to touch the U.S. GAO's overwhelming criticism of JSFail as just presented to you?

Why would I focus on it? Cleary actions speak louder then words, and the predictions of the programs death are exaggerated……….

Now how about that little math problem………..We can see the Norwegian deal, and contrast with the proposed Canadian deal and the numbers seem to align……..So what’s the problem? Other then a known reality running counter to your narrative.....

[cybercoma]

Why would we do that?

Are we playing the question game?

[Guest Derek L]

Are we playing the question game?

Maybe, maybe not.....What do you think?