Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 No. We. Are. Not. If, as you say, a private business can discriminate against whoever they want, then they can do just that regardless of the circumstances. That's your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Oh my god, this is hilarious. I'm getting told about science by someone who doesn't understand that the muscle mass difference between men and women is entirely due to their relative production of testosterone. I didn't post anything about muscle mass, I posted about the inherent advantages to having been male originally, and possessing a lower body fat percentage and not having to deal with any of the side effects of menstruation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 If, as you say, a private business can discriminate against whoever they want, then they can do just that regardless of the circumstances. That's your view. Can a white woman enter the Miss Black America pageant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 If they decided that no gay or black contestants were allowed you'd be okay on that basis, then? They did not decide that. There has been lesbians in the Miss Universe Canada Pageant & black women as well. Whether or not the courts considers this person a female is irrelevant because the courts are not sanctioning these pageants. They obviously won't accept a male into their pageant that is made specifically for naturally born females. As in females who were born females. Not for males who get a sex change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 What if she's really dark and has the appearance of being Black? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Can a white woman enter the Miss Black America pageant? Exactly. Nope! Can a person without a physical disability compete in the Paralympic Games? No! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I didn't post anything about muscle mass, I posted about the inherent advantages to having been male originally, and possessing a lower body fat percentage and not having to deal with any of the side effects of menstruation. Lower body fat percentage is just the flip side of muscle mass. Still regulated by hormones, still a non-issue for someone who will have been taking massive amounts of estrogen and testosterone inhibitors since transitioning. As for the ridiculous period argument, there's a lot of variation among women as to how severe those effects are: would you suggest women who don't have sever periods have an unfair advantage as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 If, as you say, a private business can discriminate against whoever they want, then they can do just that regardless of the circumstances. That's your view. Actually, the pageant most definitely does "discriminate" by virtue that it's not open to any woman. The contestants must be single, never married, childless, never given birth, not pregnant, never been pregnant, not to become pregnant, and within a very specific age group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Actually, the pageant most definitely does "discriminate" by virtue that it's not open to any woman. The contestants must be single, never married, childless, never given birth, not pregnant, never been pregnant, not to become pregnant, and within a very specific age group. I don't think BlackDog realizes that discrimination is everywhere and is sometimes fair. That even he discriminates daily without even knowing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Lower body fat percentage is just the flip side of muscle mass. Not true. Two people can have the same muscle mass, but different body fat percentages. Women have higher body fat percenatges due to the possibility of pregnancy. Transgendered individuals don't, and their hormones aren't the same composition and intensity. As for the ridiculous period argument, there's a lot of variation among women as to how severe those effects are: would you suggest women who don't have sever periods have an unfair advantage as well? Rididulous because you have no answer for it. No, women that have varying degrees of side effects are all still women, that have to go through the same thing. Somebody originally born a man, has no side effects at all, and no possibility of them. It may be a small advantage, but it's still and advantage. You're being disingenious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) I don't think BlackDog realizes that discrimination is everywhere and is sometimes fair. That even he discriminates daily without even knowing it Exactly. In fact, he's discriminating right now, by choosing to post in this forum over others. Edited March 29, 2012 by Shady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Actually, the pageant most definitely does "discriminate" by virtue that it's not open to any woman. The contestants must be single, never married, childless, never given birth, not pregnant, never been pregnant, not to become pregnant, and within a very specific age group. I don't think BlackDog realizes that discrimination is everywhere and is sometimes fair. That even he discriminates daily without even knowing it That's the point. It's not an example of fair discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 It's not an example of fair discrimination. Yes it is, you just disagree, and choose to ignore facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 That's the point. It's not an example of fair discrimination. You are discriminating against naturally born females. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Not true. Two people can have the same muscle mass, but different body fat percentages. Women have higher body fat percenatges due to the possibility of pregnancy. Transgendered individuals don't, and their hormones aren't the same composition and intensity. You have no idea what you're talking about here. Rididulous because you have no answer for it. No, women that have varying degrees of side effects are all still women, that have to go through the same thing. Somebody originally born a man, has no side effects at all, and no possibility of them. It may be a small advantage, but it's still and advantage. You're being disingenious. And you're reaching. Oh by the way: do you know there are women who, through natural circumstances or artificial means, don't have periods at all. Edited March 29, 2012 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 You are discriminating against naturally born females. Okay, you can shut up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 You have no idea what you're talking about here. Yes I do. And you're reaching. Oh by the way: do you know there are women who, through natural circumstances or artificial means, don't have periods at all. Yep, so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Okay, you can shut up now. So you've said the F word and now you're telling me to shut up? I think it's time you took a time out. Let me ask you a question. Should a person who isn't physically disabled be allowed to compete in the Paralympic games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Yes I do. Yep, so what? :facepalm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 I didn't post anything about muscle mass, I posted about the inherent advantages to having been male originally, and possessing a lower body fat percentage and not having to deal with any of the side effects of menstruation. Actually, the surgery and hormones diminish just about any "advantage" fat-wise* - and really, the extra fat is what gives women their curves; and a woman can prevent having her period during a specific time span with meds - I doubt if any of them have their periods during the competition. Furthermore, a woman can have liposuction. As I said previously, as long at there are no restrictions regarding plastic/cosmetic surgery, they are all on an even playing field in that regard. *In one study, profound changes in weight and fat distribution were observed in 20 MTF transsexuals after taking hormones for just 12 months. A marked increase in subcutaneous fat deposition was observed, reaching near female norms in the arms, abdomen, hips, thighs, etc. Other studies support these findings. It's also become clear that transsexual women on hormones loses muscle mass... Despite a loss of several kilogrammes of muscle mass, adult male-to-female transsexuals actually have a tendency to gain weight after starting hormones as they put on so called "reproductive fat". An overall gain of 4-5kg (10-12 lbs) seems typical - the largest fat deposition occurs on the hips and thighs, with a typical gain of 4-5 cm (2 inches) in hip measurement. The tendency of male to female transsexuals to gain weight is best countered by appropriate exercising and dieting. link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Let me ask you a question. Should a person who isn't physically disabled be allowed to compete in the Paralympic games? Find out for yourself what the purpose of the Paralympics is and then ask me again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 That's the point. It's not an example of fair discrimination. So the other "discriminatory" requirements are "fair" in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Find out for yourself what the purpose of the Paralympics is and then ask me again. Then I ask you, to find out what the purpose of a "Miss" Universe pageant is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 So the other "discriminatory" requirements are "fair" in your opinion? Not necessarily, no. Some of them seem flat out ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Then I ask you, to find out what the purpose of a "Miss" Universe pageant is It's a beauty contest. That was easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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