F-35 purchase undecided, Fantino says

capricorn · April 4, 2012

Apparently during QP, Harper, Fantino and MacKay were all responding to the questions by going we didn't sign the contract yet... they look like they are just going to try riding this out together ..like they do all the time

Riding it out would mean they do nothing to address the concerns raised by the AG. That's hardly the case.

capricorn · April 4, 2012

But harper will not do it now when the opp is calling for it, he will wait a little while and it should happen.

I see a cabinet shuffle on the horizon.

stopstaaron · April 4, 2012

When running a company with 400,000 employees, you can't know everything and you need to trust your managers, but in this case the mangers lied. I could see mckay being the point man biting the bullet, for he should have been more forcefull in finding things out. But harper will not do it now when the opp is calling for it, he will wait a little while and it should happen.

Except that the problems and price variations have been in the news for years..

stopstaaron · April 4, 2012

Riding it out would mean they do nothing to address the concerns raised by the AG. That's hardly the case.

oh right, like the in & out case.. we don't believe we did anything wrong here however we will take the recommendations given to us and move forward!

That apparently will only work if you are the government .. try that anywhere else and you're finished

capricorn · April 4, 2012

What odds do you give Fantino, MacKay or the General resigning / getting fired?

How likely do you think that would be

Sorry, stop. I don't feel like sharing at this time. I'm playing the waiting game.

cybercoma · April 4, 2012

Did anyone see Andrew Coyne on the At Issue panel last night?

A spectacular evisceration of why the Harper Government is going to have to wear this one and why it's so important...

Go on....

Jack Weber · April 4, 2012

Go on....

See the link I provided above...

cybercoma · April 4, 2012

When running a company with 400,000 employees, you can't know everything

Fuck that. If the government doesn't know everything that's going on at the DND, they should all be fired for incompetence. They damn well better know everything that's going on or at the very least handle it appropriately when they find out things they didn't know. Edited April 4, 2012 by cybercoma

cybercoma · April 4, 2012

I see a cabinet shuffle on the horizon.

I see an Airbus scandal on the horizon.

Jerry J. Fortin · April 4, 2012

There will in fact be a real competition for the contract. There are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. We need birds, lets find out what we can get to maximize our expenditures. AS it stands we will start losing F18's at very nearly the rate we received them. That will start to happening a few short years. Its a question of airframe hours, engine hours. We can by the way get our hands on some gently used F15's. As a matter of fact we we would be well advised to rethink our operational requirements and design a force sufficient to serve our purposes.

This is Canada, we have no natural enemies. What we need fighters for is to assist in North American defense.We have no need to project force outside of a national defense equation. Since that is the reality, it would seem prudent for concerned neighbors to assist each other to the extent possible. That means working with our partners toward common goals.

We are mixing politics and self defense. Bad idea............

capricorn · April 4, 2012

I see an Airbus scandal on the horizon.

It comes as no surprise to me that you do. I think that my musing that a cabinet shuffle is imminent is more rooted in reality than your reflection that another Airbus scandal is in the offing.

stopstaaron · April 4, 2012

This is Canada, we have no natural enemies.

The U.S & Russia

Wild Bill · April 4, 2012

There will in fact be a real competition for the contract. There are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. We need birds, lets find out what we can get to maximize our expenditures. AS it stands we will start losing F18's at very nearly the rate we received them. That will start to happening a few short years. Its a question of airframe hours, engine hours. We can by the way get our hands on some gently used F15's. As a matter of fact we we would be well advised to rethink our operational requirements and design a force sufficient to serve our purposes.

This is Canada, we have no natural enemies. What we need fighters for is to assist in North American defense.We have no need to project force outside of a national defense equation. Since that is the reality, it would seem prudent for concerned neighbors to assist each other to the extent possible. That means working with our partners toward common goals.

We are mixing politics and self defense. Bad idea............

F-15s? Jerry, in a modern world of stealth aircraft, what the hell could we do with F-15s? They couldn't see any intruders but the intruders would see them lit up like Christmas trees!

dre · April 4, 2012

F-15s? Jerry, in a modern world of stealth aircraft, what the hell could we do with F-15s? They couldn't see any intruders but the intruders would see them lit up like Christmas trees!

Sorry thats just not true. F-15's would work just fine for pretty much everything our airforce does.

But it comes down to what we can afford. A guy shopping for a car with 1000 dollars isnt coming home with a Ferrari F40. You already balked at the idea of us paying more taxes... our government is broke and cannot even pay its own employees with the revenue it takes in.

Where the hell is all this money supposed to come from? If we deficit finance megapurchases like this we will end up paying double, and we will probably still be paying even after this hardware has rusted into the ground.

Youre like the kid in the toystore that wants the shiny 100 dollar toy but only has $5.

Wild Bill · April 5, 2012

Sorry thats just not true. F-15's would work just fine for pretty much everything our airforce does.

But it comes down to what we can afford. A guy shopping for a car with 1000 dollars isnt coming home with a Ferrari F40. You already balked at the idea of us paying more taxes... our government is broke and cannot even pay its own employees with the revenue it takes in.

Where the hell is all this money supposed to come from? If we deficit finance megapurchases like this we will end up paying double, and we will probably still be paying even after this hardware has rusted into the ground.

Youre like the kid in the toystore that wants the shiny 100 dollar toy but only has $5.

As I've said before, we could always re-arrange our fiscal priorities. Judging by their perpetually poor ratings, we could scrap CBC-TV and save a fortune without ticking off a very large number of voters. Most of those would probably be non-Tory supporters anyway so it would make no difference at election time.

You talk like a military defense is a luxury, Dr. Dre. If you ever need one and you don't have it, it was a necessity.

stopstaaron · April 5, 2012

we could scrap CBC-TV

or you could go to hell

punked · April 5, 2012

As I've said before, we could always re-arrange our fiscal priorities. Judging by their perpetually poor ratings, we could scrap CBC-TV and save a fortune without ticking off a very large number of voters. Most of those would probably be non-Tory supporters anyway so it would make no difference at election time.

You talk like a military defense is a luxury, Dr. Dre. If you ever need one and you don't have it, it was a necessity.

We could and still have a deficit.

DogOnPorch · April 5, 2012

Sorry thats just not true. F-15's would work just fine for pretty much everything our airforce does.

Ultimately a 1967 design. First flown in 1972. While it is a fine aircraft, the airframes are getting older by the second. Plus, who says they're for sale? Only a few select countries operate F-15s.

Jerry J. Fortin · April 5, 2012

The U.S & Russia

I am already thinking about losing sleep over being invaded by the USA, or Russia. We have no natural enemies. It is easy to say because its true. If you feel threatened by our relationship with Russia. you are in a minority position of public opinion. Fear mongering is the flavour of the day.

In my view this boils down to dollar bills and common sense. The F35 just got tossed out for now. Never fear it will be back. There are very damned few aircraft that will satisfy our operational requirements. The issue is not the bird, its the one in the hand equals two in the bush kinda sentiment.

DogOnPorch · April 5, 2012

Jerry: If you feel threatened by our relationship with Russia. you are in a minority position of public opinion. Fear mongering is the flavour of the day.

Not threatened by Russia. Just ever so wary. They've flipped and flopped both ways in the past at a whim. Plus, if you're old enough, you DO remember being targeted during the Cold War. The little city I grew up in wasn't a target...but all three of the big hydro-electric dams close by were to receive multiple megatonne sized strikes to shut 'em down. We wuz glowing toast if it came to shooting.

Jerry J. Fortin · April 5, 2012

Ultimately a 1967 design. First flown in 1972. While it is a fine aircraft, the airframes are getting older by the second. Plus, who says they're for sale? Only a few select countries operate F-15s.

The Americans are shutting down a few National Guard squadrons. Yes these are high mileage birds, but we need something to tide us over until we can make the proper decisions based on up to date information. This contract is a big deal. They have A10's F15,F16,F18'sm, No AC 130 Spectre are for sale. but we can get some A10 for some much needed air to mud missions to support our own troops. Yet there are lots of birds available. more than a thousand I hear. Attack aircraft are what we do not have and we really do need them. Ask a military guy....air cover is a nice thing. We can't do it right now. Do we need to? Lets hope not because we can't if we have to.

We need to design a military force before we decide to buy shit we will never use or will never need. We need to think about national defense prior to designing a mission profile that requires force projection outside our borders, a capability we do not have anyway.

I say if the Yankees are having the firesale that it is possible we could find a bargain or two. Spare parts are not cheap, but its cheaper than buying new planes.

Jerry J. Fortin · April 5, 2012

Not threatened by Russia. Just ever so wary. They've flipped and flopped both ways in the past at a whim. Plus, if you're old enough, you DO remember being targeted during the Cold War. The little city I grew up in wasn't a target...but all three of the big hydro-electric dams close by were to receive multiple megatonne sized strikes to shut 'em down. We wuz glowing toast if it came to shooting.

Wary is smart. and safe. Its not like the Americans are innocent either. Flip flop is a game of statesmanship played by each and everyone of the nations in the UN. Such is not my point though. I merely ask how much we want to have a military force at tax payer expense.

I think we should do something like figure what our priorities are.

DogOnPorch · April 5, 2012

Canadian A-10s would have been handy in Afghanistan. But then I've chirped often about Canada's need for a light attack aircraft on par with the old Skyraider for organic support.

If F-15s are truely all that there is, we'd be better off pimping-out our F-18s a bit longer. But to what end? What else are the Americans building?

DogOnPorch · April 5, 2012

Flip flop is a game of statesmanship played by each and everyone of the nations in the UN.

The Russian flip-flopping isn't a political nuance. It's changing sides, eating its own, enslaving millions. Oh...but those days are gone. (snicker)

punked · April 5, 2012

The Russian flip-flopping isn't a political nuance. It's changing sides, eating its own, enslaving millions. Oh...but those days are gone. (snicker)

More people in Prison today in the US then at point in Russian History.