cybercoma Posted March 14, 2012 Report Posted March 14, 2012 How do you know that they know more than you or I do? You're drawing a conclusion without anything concrete to base it on. From what we know, the woman left the store without saying anything, so how would the police know why she did what she did? They can't get inside of her head. The police don't know who did it. They don't know why she did it. They are speculating. Do you actually believe you have just as much information as the police that responded to the call, if not more? Quote
cybercoma Posted March 14, 2012 Report Posted March 14, 2012 I don't think it would ultimately stand up to section 319 criteria: I think the law has been interpreted to go beyond the literal sense of "communicating statements:" Link The problem for a conviction will come down to motive/intent as already stated. ------------------------------ This is not to say that I don't understand where the police are coming from. From the story indicated and the pictures it certainly appears worthy of the "hate crime" label. If/when this lady is caught charges would be made based on the evidence at that time and this is all based on the opinions of police, prosecutors, etc that think they can prove intent or not. -------------------------------- I'm more curious as to what would be one's reaction if you heard about this story and knew the perpetrator? Would you turn your friend in? Would you have a good laugh over it? Would you.... ? You're looking at the wrong thing. Check out this article on hate crimes which includes all the relevant sections: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/06/15/f-hate-crimes.html What's relevant here is the section on sentencing: 718.2(a)(i) Quote
Guest Peeves Posted March 14, 2012 Report Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Do you actually believe you have just as much information as the police that responded to the call, if not more? Unless there is more than is now apparent, some pejoratives along with the action, there is nothing to suggest this is a hate crime. Women other than Muslims wear head scarfs. I laughed at a young (?) assumed Muslim girl working behind a cash register in a store once. Was that a hate crime? BTW as an aside, the reason I laughed is that I am rather casually versed in Islamic laws, customs and decrees as well as in fatwas and the like. The veil or other like attire is for modesty, and while not decreed by the Koran,is followed customarily by some. Now this pretty young lady was decked out in flimsy lovely pastel covering of body and head scarf. She was wearing (obviously) significant make up, blush, lip stick and eye liner. She was striking, and she was certainly aware of her appearance. So rather than using the veil/scarf as a thing of modesty it was used to enhance her appearance, to attract, to expose. So I looked admiringly at her and I laughed. I couldn't help it. Wearing as she did such, clearly contravened any propriety of dress and was laughable. Couldn't help it. Had I known as little as the others around me for her 'desert dress', I would simply have thought her on the way to a later Arabic ḥarīm dress party. So sue me. Edited March 14, 2012 by Peeves Quote
cybercoma Posted March 14, 2012 Report Posted March 14, 2012 The assault was apparently random. So why did she choose this woman as her target and not some other woman? Quote
Guest Peeves Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 The assault was apparently random. So why did she choose this woman as her target and not some other woman? maybe she thought she was a nun that had 'taken the veil.' Quote
Guest Peeves Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 The assault was apparently random. So why did she choose this woman as her target and not some other woman? maybe she thought she was a nun that had 'taken the veil.' Better a scarf......... "A knife-wielding man attacked a Mills-Westley in a supermarket, eventually cutting off her head and running away with it, government officials in Tenerife said Friday. The man entered a shopping center in the town of Arona, in the Cristianos area of Tenerife, and stole a knife from the supermarket before attacking the apparent stranger, a central government spokeswoman said." http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/british-woman-beheaded-in-canary-islands---is-media-afraid-of-reporting-against-muslim-jihad/question-1798069/ Quote
msj Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 You're looking at the wrong thing. What's relevant here is the section on sentencing: 718.2(a)(i) Yeah, I point out the main section relevant to this case which is what they point to and I'm "looking at the wrong thing." Without a conviction under section 319, section 718.2 is irrelevant. And since it is highly unlikely that this lady would be convicted under 319 for the reasons already stated, section 718.2 is even more irrelevanter. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
cybercoma Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 maybe she thought she was a nun that had 'taken the veil.' Maybe she did. In that case it would be a hate crime for targeting Catholics. Quote
cybercoma Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 Yeah, I point out the main section relevant to this case which is what they point to and I'm "looking at the wrong thing." Without a conviction under section 319, section 718.2 is irrelevant. And since it is highly unlikely that this lady would be convicted under 319 for the reasons already stated, section 718.2 is even more irrelevanter. No. Section 718.2 applies to sentencing under any conviction. She could be charged under section 266 and 718.2 would be applied if she is convicted. Quote
stopstaaron Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 Maybe she did. In that case it would be a hate crime for targeting Catholics. Has anyone ever been charged for hate crimes against catholics Quote Don't ban me bro. Oh behave, I'll behave. I'll be a good little boy.
cybercoma Posted March 23, 2012 Report Posted March 23, 2012 I don't know, but they certainly can be. Quote
g_bambino Posted March 24, 2012 Report Posted March 24, 2012 To add, yes it would be a hate crime if someone assaulted a nun for no other reason than her being a nun. But would it be classified as a hate crime by the police? And would it become a story in the media? Quote
cybercoma Posted March 24, 2012 Report Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) But would it be classified as a hate crime by the police? And would it become a story in the media? These are hypotheticals. In my opinion, yes it would be classified that way by police and yes it would become a story in the media. Of course, they wouldn't focus on the "hate-crime" aspect, but simply the fact that a nun was assaulted. That's what I think anyway. Edited March 24, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
Jack Weber Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Has anyone ever been charged for hate crimes against catholics See the Spanish Inquisition... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
jbg Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Isn't that how women fight anyway? By grabbing the hair/head area? Just because a woman is wearing a Hijab doesn't make her immune from getting her hair/head pulled. Yes that is borderline assault but that is how women assault other women in the west. I'm tempted to grab the hijabs but I believe in taking the high road. I'd rather ask them why they hate the West so much. I'd sooner pull the muzzle off a dog than pull the hijab off a woman. I believe in fighting fair, not dirty. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Guest American Woman Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 I'm tempted to grab the hijabs but I believe in taking the high road. I'd rather ask them why they hate the West so much. Why would you be tempted to grab it? - and why would you assume that someone wearing a hijab hates the west? I'd sooner pull the muzzle off a dog than pull the hijab off a woman. I believe in fighting fair, not dirty. I don't understand why you would want to fight her at all. Quote
dre Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 I'm tempted to grab the hijabs but I believe in taking the high road. I'd rather ask them why they hate the West so much. I'd sooner pull the muzzle off a dog than pull the hijab off a woman. I believe in fighting fair, not dirty. Wow. Got some serious issues there huh? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bleeding heart Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Why would you be tempted to grab it? - and why would you assume that someone wearing a hijab hates the west? I don't understand why you would want to fight her at all. Just so. When one is bravely resisting the urge to fight innocent people minding their own business...well, one might think of pondering that urge itself. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
jbg Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Just so. When one is bravely resisting the urge to fight innocent people minding their own business...well, one might think of pondering that urge itself. Maybe the Muslims who move here should decide to Westernize? My ancestors and most of our ancestors did. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
msj Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Maybe the Muslims who move here should decide to Westernize? My ancestors and most of our ancestors did. So the next time I see a Jew wearing a kippah I will flick it off and say that I know some anonymous Jewish guy on the intertubes who said this behaviour is fine since he should have decided to Westernize. Can't wait to visit Montreal. Should be fun. Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
bleeding heart Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Maybe the Muslims who move here should decide to Westernize? My ancestors and most of our ancestors did. What has that to do with some latent urge to fight people who aren't doing you any harm? Is that some sort of "Western value" of which I'm unaware? Edited March 25, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Guest American Woman Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Maybe the Muslims who move here should decide to Westernize? My ancestors and most of our ancestors did. You said "most," so that would imply not all. At any rate, choosing to wear a hijab is not synonymous with "hating the west." Just out of curiosity, do Quakers hate the west? What about nuns who choose to wear a habit? What about the Amish? Quote
jbg Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 You said "most," so that would imply not all. At any rate, choosing to wear a hijab is not synonymous with "hating the west." Just out of curiosity, do Quakers hate the west? What about nuns who choose to wear a habit? What about the Amish? The Quakers and Amish do reject American culture. The difference is that they don't take our social benefits and they don't promote violence. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bleeding heart Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) The Quakers and Amish do reject American culture. The difference is that they don't take our social benefits and they don't promote violence. 1. I personally know a Quaker couple. He is a professor of Economics, and she's a pediatrician. So I think it's safe to suggest that they receive social benefits (medicare, for example; potential police protection; etc etc. And while I don't know them well, I don't think that they "reject the culture" of their country. 2. We're talking about some woman whom you know nothing about; why in your hypothetical does she "promote violence"? 3. If she's a citizen, she's not "tak[ing] our social benefits"; she's rightfully receiving her social benefits. Edited March 25, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
GostHacked Posted March 25, 2012 Report Posted March 25, 2012 Maybe the Muslims who move here should decide to Westernize? My ancestors and most of our ancestors did. Why not go all the way and become a Christian? Quote
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