Will the Collapse of Greece affect Canada?

[Rocky Road]

???

RR, you got me.

what??

"McPherson lives in an off-grid, straw-bale house in Arizona where he puts into practice his lifelong interest in sustainable living via organic gardening, raising small animals for eggs and milk, and working with members of his rural community. Ackerman lives at Shastao Philosophical Hermitage, a solar-powered community in Mt. Shasta, California, where she raises almost all of her own food, uses a bicycle for transportation and is active in her town’s re-localization efforts."

Sounds to me like these people are taking action to ween ourselves off the debt-based lifestyles that we have grown accustomed to. One wonders how we can continue to be misled by politicians who tell us that "growth and more debt" are the answer to a world in peril, the reality is we are facing a mass extinction event, climate change, well past peak oil, and water is quickly becoming the world's blue gold.

[madmax]

Greeces bailout has already affected Canada.

I believe things like

The Enron Debacle.. the Worldcom Debacle.. the Stockmarket Ponzi scheme of late, and the housing and marketing collapse have had a dramatic effect on the Canadian Economy running on its 5th year straight...

The US economy affects us..

But yes... there are people who want to hype up Greece....or compare us to Greece...

its absurd ...

[Rocky Road]

Max Keiser discusses the Debt Burden of the West in this current episode.

[dre]

So, the bondholders are like a taxpayer. What's the difference? You can give your money to the government one way, or you can give it another way.

Everyone seems to think that the Greek government is wrong to default. But how is default different from a tax?

In effect, the Greek government has found a different way to tax people. And I suspect that other governments will soon choose to tax this way too.

----

Welcome to the 21st century, (or the 21st century version of Ricardian equivalence)!

Your confusing investors with tax payers. Nobody is forced to buy greek bonds, and people that buy bonds know that theres some risk associated with them. Some investments make you money, and some investments lose you money. Its called capitalism.

I certainly do see a problem however with central banks, and institutions like the IMF, because they really DO take the choice away and take money from tax payers. Most of this greek debt is being bought up by the ECB, an organization that I dont even believe should exist. Its true that central banks steal money from people all around the world, but beyond that I dont think youre characterising national defaults accurately.

[Rocky Road]

Your confusing investors with tax payers. Nobody is forced to buy greek bonds, and people that buy bonds know that theres some risk associated with them. Some investments make you money, and some investments lose you money. Its called capitalism.

I certainly do see a problem however with central banks, and institutions like the IMF, because they really DO take the choice away and take money from tax payers. Most of this greek debt is being bought up by the ECB, an organization that I dont even believe should exist. Its true that central banks steal money from people all around the world, but beyond that I dont think youre characterising national defaults accurately.

http://leonardoboff.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/confronting-the-sixth-massive-extenction/

"Can we slow down the sixth massive extinction, given that we are its principal cause? Yes, we can, and we must. It is a good sign that we are developing an awareness of our origins, some 13.7 billion years ago, and of our responsibility for the future of life. The universe elicits that in us, because it is not against us, but for us. But it demands our cooperation, because we are the ones causing so much damage. We must wake up now, while there is still time."

Isn't survivaal on the agenda of these politicians?

[August1991]

Your confusing investors with tax payers. Nobody is forced to buy greek bonds...

What's the difference between a taxpayer, and a holder of a goverment bond in default? I don't see any difference.

IMHO, the State has the power to tax whoever it wants, in whatever way it wants.

----

As I say, welcome to the 21st century.

Edited March 14, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

What's the difference between a taxpayer, and a holder of a goverment bond in default? I don't see any difference.

A tax payer is forced to pay taxes. Nobody is forced to buy greek bonds (except in the way I described regarding central banks). Investors understand the risk and can either invest or not.

[August1991]

A tax payer is forced to pay taxes. Nobody is forced to buy greek bonds (except in the way I described regarding central banks). Investors understand the risk and can either invest or not.

Forced? Taxpayers can move, or save their State pension elsewhere?

Dre, you miss my point.

Governments in the early 21st century will tax in any way they can. IOW, Ricardian equivalence.

Edited March 14, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

Forced? Taxpayers can't move?

Dre, you miss my point.

Governments in the early 21st century will tax in any way they can. IOW, Ricardian equivalence.

Comparing investors to tax payers is silly. Default is not taxation or a way for a government to fund itself. Its an emergency measure thats very harmfull to the economy and the currency and the government in the short term. Not something countries do frivalously, and it certainly isnt a form of taxation.

What we are seeing here is just plain old capitalism. Bond investors made risky decisions, and now theyre going to lose money one way or the other and thats just fine.

The real problem as I said is that its the Central Banks and the IMF that are buying up all these debt, and those organizations just spend other peoples money.

Edited March 14, 2012 by dre

[August1991]

Comparing investors to tax payers is silly. Default is not taxation or a way for a government to fund itself.

Huh?

Dre, I think you know little of economic history - and the history of State finances.

[dre]

Huh?

Dre, I think you know little of economic history - and the history of State finances.

I know quite a bit about it actually, where as you seem to have a hard time grasping the basic concepts involved here. If Greece defaults they will face a prolonged depression, foreign investment will completely dry up, and the drachma will plumet to near zero value. Acting like this is just some nifty trick to steal money is ridiculous. Bankruptcy is the last position anybody wants to be in.

[August1991]

I know quite a bit about it actually, where as you seem to have a hard time grasping the basic concepts involved here. If Greece defaults they will face a prolonged depression, foreign investment will completely dry up, and the drachma will plumet to near zero value. Acting like this is just some nifty trick to steal money is ridiculous. Bankruptcy is the last position anybody wants to be in.

Drachma? If only Greek government bonds were denominated in drachmas.

----

The Greek government has already defaulted on its euro bonds, and bondholders have suffered a haircut.

Make no mistake, politicians (and voters) around the world have noticed. As I say, welcome to the 21st century.

Leftists/Democracies have discovered a new way to tax: default on government bonds.

Edited March 14, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

The Greek government has already defaulted, and bondholders have suffered a haircut.

Make no mistake, politicians (and voters) around the world have noticed. As I say, welcome to the 21st century.

Democracies have discovered a new way to tax: default on government bonds.

Again this is just ridiculous and you keep repeating the same thing and pretending I havent already addressed it.

First of all greece has not defaulted. Its creditors have voluntarily offered to write down some debt so that they wont default. This should be an easy concept for you to understand. If you refuse to pay you loan back to the bank thats a default. But if your bank says "you can just pay us half!" thats not a default.

Second of all youre ignoring what a national default is. Its a real mess that destroys national economies and causes a lot of hardship, usually wipes out the countries banks, and completely destroys their credit and the ability to attract foreign bankruptcy.

Defaulting is not a way to raise revenue, in fact the exact opposite of what you claim is true. A government that defaults will actually wipe out its revenue and cut itself off from funding not only through the bond market, but from domestic taxation as well.

Thats really the only way to sum this up: The exact OPPOSITE of what you are suggest is true.

[August1991]

First of all greece has not defaulted. Its creditors have voluntarily offered to write down some debt so that they wont default.

IOW, the Greek government defaulted.

This should be an easy concept for you to understand. If you refuse to pay you loan back to the bank thats a default. But if your bank says "you can just pay us half!" thats not a default.

Dre, did you pass Grade 3 Arithmetic? Are you an American Liberal/Leftist?

Whatever.

Second of all youre ignoring what a national default is. Its a real mess that destroys national economies and causes a lot of hardship, usually wipes out the countries banks, and completely destroys their credit and the ability to attract foreign bankruptcy.

Defaulting is not a way to raise revenue, in fact the exact opposite of what you claim is true. A government that defaults will actually wipe out its revenue and cut itself off from funding not only through the bond market, but from domestic taxation as well.

Thats really the only way to sum this up: The exact OPPOSITE of what you are suggest is true.

Let's wait and see the long term - when the national default really occurs. Edited March 14, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

IOW, the Greek government defaulted.

Dre, did you pass Grade 3 Arithmetic? Are you an American Leftist? Whatever.

Let's wait and see the long term - when the national default really occurs.

IOW, the Greek government defaulted.

No I already explained this.

Dre, did you pass Grade 3 Arithmetic? Are you an American Leftist? Whatever.

Let's wait and see the long term - when the national default really occurs.

They should default right now unles bond holders agree to a much larger write down.

You dont appear to understand how capitalism works, and you seem to know almost nothing about the situation in Greece. These people made terrible investments and should lose their money. Malinvestment should not be rewarded because if it is this kind of thing will just keep happening. You seem to want it to be impossible for an investor to lose money, and take on no risk. You think you should be able to invest in a terribly run business and not lose money.

Greece quite simply does not have the money to service this debt. Its economy is in a prolonged depression with massive contraction, high unemployment and more than 50% of GDP in its civil service. They should default, and they should do it now. And bond holders know that as well, which is why they are are offering to write down some debt in order to keep Greece in the economic euro-prison.

And the real irony here is that while Greece is in a state of chaos, with their democracy gutted and an unelected prime minister installed by the ECB/EP/IMF and extremely bleak economic prospects and waves of protests, that youre acting like they somehow "scored".

[Rocky Road]

Here is a film about the Crisis of Civilization..

it goes beyond the mere crisis in Greece, and it encompasses some of the major problems facing humanity today.

http://crisisofcivilization.com/watch/

[Rocky Road]

Now what about Portugal, Spain, Ireland, the Uk, the US and Italy???

[Rocky Road]

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ca/2012/03/violence-firebombings-erupt-as-spain.html

Violence, Firebombings Erupt as Spain Announces €27 Billion Deficit-Cutting Plan; Spanish Economy Will Implode; Spain Headed for Bond Revolt and Bailouts

[bush_cheney2004]

...Violence, Firebombings Erupt as Spain Announces €27 Billion Deficit-Cutting Plan; Spanish Economy Will Implode; Spain Headed for Bond Revolt and Bailouts

Gee, all it takes is a hockey loss to cause that in Canada!

[Rocky Road]

Gee, all it takes is a hockey loss to cause that in Canada!

'US next Greece if debt is not dealt with'

[bush_cheney2004]

'US next Greece if debt is not dealt with'

Canada has already been the next Greece...back in the future.

Remember the Canadian Peso?

Edited April 3, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Rocky Road]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/what-obama-is-reading/

Picture of Obama reading "The Post American World"

[Rocky Road]

http://player.vimeo.com/video/39156085

Athens teachers union striking.

[Rocky Road]

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/general-strike.html

Spanish workers staged a 24-hour general strike to protest against the governments labour reforms. Spain has one of the highest levels of unemployment in the eurozone, with the number of jobless reaching 5 million in January

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2012/mar/29/spanish-general-strike-in-pictures#/?picture88040345&index=2

[Michael Hardner]

You really have to wonder about a magazine like Adbusters, that portrays the workers struggle the same way, whether the workers are making a pittance, or whether they have gold plated benefits plans as in some European countries.

This is advocacy pure and simple... no reasonable person can conclude that all of these situations are the same.